Guest firetotheworks Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's a fantastic player, he really is. But until he has a World Cup finals , not even a World Cup win but a finals that he stamps his class on, then Pele and the likes of Maradona still come above him in my GOAT list. If Tevez was in Argentina's team last year he would be a World Cup winner. I'd expect a call up before Palacio ffs. I dunno about that. Tevez was essentially dropped in the first place because he didn't work well with Messi and was making the same runs etc. Aguero was definitely the best choice but it's a bit of a mystery why he had such a bad tournament. Even if Higuain had scored, I think people would accept that Messi is the best ever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's a fantastic player, he really is. But until he has a World Cup finals , not even a World Cup win but a finals that he stamps his class on, then Pele and the likes of Maradona still come above him in my GOAT list. I'll never understand why the World Cup has to be the thing that defines a great player personally, the Champions League is probably more competitive. Because it's the second biggest worldwide sporting event. Thus making it football's biggest worldwide event. Whilst I agree that it is, I don't see how that shows it's the most competitive. I do think that the World Cup and possibly playing for another team are the only things that he has left to do to end the arguments, but I personally believe that he's already the greatest of all time. I agree with you except the end bit. But if he does, either or both of those things, then I think there would be justification in his being the supreme football player of all time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's a fantastic player, he really is. But until he has a World Cup finals , not even a World Cup win but a finals that he stamps his class on, then Pele and the likes of Maradona still come above him in my GOAT list. I'll never understand why the World Cup has to be the thing that defines a great player personally, the Champions League is probably more competitive. Because it's the second biggest worldwide sporting event. Thus making it football's biggest worldwide event. Whilst I agree that it is, I don't see how that shows it's the most competitive. I do think that the World Cup and possibly playing for another team are the only things that he has left to do to end the arguments, but I personally believe that he's already the greatest of all time. I'm not sure the "playing for other team" holds much water. It could be argued (and with some merit) that under Guardiola Messi sat on the throne that Xavi and Iniesta built for him, but he's completely running things now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's a fantastic player, he really is. But until he has a World Cup finals , not even a World Cup win but a finals that he stamps his class on, then Pele and the likes of Maradona still come above him in my GOAT list. I'll never understand why the World Cup has to be the thing that defines a great player personally, the Champions League is probably more competitive. Because it's the second biggest worldwide sporting event. Thus making it football's biggest worldwide event. Whilst I agree that it is, I don't see how that shows it's the most competitive. I do think that the World Cup and possibly playing for another team are the only things that he has left to do to end the arguments, but I personally believe that he's already the greatest of all time. I'm not sure the "playing for other team" holds much water. It could be argued (and with some merit) that under Guardiola Messi sat on the throne that Xavi and Iniesta built for him, but he's completely running things now. I agree, I just think that would be the only argument left. I already think he's the best, but the one thing hanging over him with some at the moment is the World Cup. If he did that I think the 'can he do it in another team/country?' argument would be the next one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's always underperformed for the national team at vital stages. My only negative thing on him. Clearly the best I've seen anyways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's always underperformed for the national team at vital stages. My only negative thing on him. Clearly the best I've seen anyways. That's simply not true anymore like. He underperformed in the final, but he was the player that got them there in the first place despite still being injured. Argentina didn't play to his strengths for a long time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's always underperformed for the national team at vital stages. My only negative thing on him. Clearly the best I've seen anyways. That's simply not true anymore like. He underperformed in the final, but he was the player that got them there in the first place despite still being injured. Argentina didn't play to his strengths for a long time. Stop it. It's very true for all WC kncokout stages and Copa America knogkoutstages he's been in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's always underperformed for the national team at vital stages. My only negative thing on him. Clearly the best I've seen anyways. That's simply not true anymore like. He underperformed in the final, but he was the player that got them there in the first place despite still being injured. Argentina didn't play to his strengths for a long time. Stop it. It's very true for all WC kncokout stages and Copa America knogkoutstages he's been in. I'm saying, it's not true anymore. Since Maradona left he's been loads better for Argentina. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's always underperformed for the national team at vital stages. My only negative thing on him. Clearly the best I've seen anyways. That's simply not true anymore like. He underperformed in the final, but he was the player that got them there in the first place despite still being injured. Argentina didn't play to his strengths for a long time. Stop it. It's very true for all WC kncokout stages and Copa America knogkoutstages he's been in. I'm saying, it's not true anymore. Since Maradona left he's been loads better for Argentina. Maradona left before the 2011 Copa America where Argentina (where Tevez also played) were as big of disappointments as Brazil and Messi didn't perform at what is expected. At the World Cup he wasn't good either, tbh his best WC came under Maradona in 2010, because despite not scoring many goals he was constantly a threat. In Brazil it was the other way around, he wasn't fantastic but was scoring goals in the group stage. But in terms of vital game (talking purely knockout stages) he's been well below par. Doesn't take away from the fact that he's the best I've seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketsbaia Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He was class at the World Cup, I'm surprised at all the grief he got. Constantly their best player, despite being one of several exhausted Argentines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Average first half, second half he remembered he's the best of his generation and started skinning Juve players for fun and essentially won the game for Barca. By his standards, not even a particularly great game. That's the standard we're talking about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Aye he's constantly been class since Maradona left, he was meh in the final by his standards but there was clearly a physical issue compared to today. I personally don't give a shit about international football anyway, it's a much lower level than CL is and has been for like 2 decades. He's been dominant at club level for majority of his career and to me that's a lot more impressive than winning an end of season tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Aye he's constantly been class since Maradona left, he was meh in the final by his standards but there was clearly a physical issue compared to today. I personally don't give a shit about international football anyway, it's a much lower level than CL is and has been for like 2 decades. He's been dominant at club level for majority of his career and to me that's a lot more impressive than winning an end of season tournament. There is a certain romanticism about winning the World Cup and him winning it last year would have been great and yes it's a shame he hasn't, but consistently destroying the best teams in the world is more than enough evidence in my book about his greatness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 People keep saying the World Cup is a low level trophy. It is however the premier International trophy. I still believe it is the highest accolade a professional football player can win. International football doesn't have the same aura about it today. I think that football is worse off for that . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's always underperformed for the national team at vital stages. My only negative thing on him. Clearly the best I've seen anyways. That's simply not true anymore like. He underperformed in the final, but he was the player that got them there in the first place despite still being injured. Argentina didn't play to his strengths for a long time. Stop it. It's very true for all WC kncokout stages and Copa America knogkoutstages he's been in. I'm saying, it's not true anymore. Since Maradona left he's been loads better for Argentina. Maradona left before the 2011 Copa America where Argentina (where Tevez also played) were as big of disappointments as Brazil and Messi didn't perform at what is expected. At the World Cup he wasn't good either, tbh his best WC came under Maradona in 2010, because despite not scoring many goals he was constantly a threat. In Brazil it was the other way around, he wasn't fantastic but was scoring goals in the group stage. But in terms of vital game (talking purely knockout stages) he's been well below par. Doesn't take away from the fact that he's the best I've seen. Again, Tevez being dropped was to allow Messi to shine. Both players were playing in the same positions and making the same runs. Since then/Maradona leaving Messi has been the focus of everything they've done. As for the World Cup, I don't agree at all, I didn't think he was anything special in 2010 when Argentina altogether were poor, but I thought in 2014 aside from the final he and Mascherano were excellent. If he'd buried that chance, or Higuain had scored that one on one, I think it would be remembered as the World Cup that Messi won. He was obviously their most important player and they got to the final, where they should have won. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 People keep saying the World Cup is a low level trophy. It is however the premier International trophy. I still believe it is the highest accolade a professional football player can win. International football doesn't have the same aura about it today. I think that football is worse off for that . It's crazy, imo. The World Cup is everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 People keep saying the World Cup is a low level trophy. It is however the premier International trophy. I still believe it is the highest accolade a professional football player can win. International football doesn't have the same aura about it today. I think that football is worse off for that . I'd like it to still feel that way, but it's lost its meaning imo. Diego Costa being Brazilian, then oop, actually he's Spanish. Players like Ibrahimovic will never be seen as being the greatest of all time, but if they were, would people hold back their opinion on him because he hasn't won a World Cup? Pele was in one of the best teams of all time and won the World Cup and that somehow means more than Messi playing in one of the best teams of all time and winning the Champions League and the league and the Ballon D'Or time and time again? It doesn't make any sense to me, why is one viewed in higher regard than the other? If Messi had declared himself Spanish when the Spanish FA tried to get him to sign and he won the Euros twice and the World Cup, would that make him a better player, or is Torres/David Villa winning it with Spain a higher achievement than what Messi has done? It's all so contentious, I just think it should be what you see and at what level. For me the Champions League is the ultimate competition in terms of football at the very highest level. That final yesterday was very good. Even when chances weren't being created the level in quality of the football was outstanding by both teams. That being the par, puts it above most of the mid-level World Cup matches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's always underperformed for the national team at vital stages. My only negative thing on him. Clearly the best I've seen anyways. That's simply not true anymore like. He underperformed in the final, but he was the player that got them there in the first place despite still being injured. Argentina didn't play to his strengths for a long time. Stop it. It's very true for all WC kncokout stages and Copa America knogkoutstages he's been in. I'm saying, it's not true anymore. Since Maradona left he's been loads better for Argentina. Maradona left before the 2011 Copa America where Argentina (where Tevez also played) were as big of disappointments as Brazil and Messi didn't perform at what is expected. At the World Cup he wasn't good either, tbh his best WC came under Maradona in 2010, because despite not scoring many goals he was constantly a threat. In Brazil it was the other way around, he wasn't fantastic but was scoring goals in the group stage. But in terms of vital game (talking purely knockout stages) he's been well below par. Doesn't take away from the fact that he's the best I've seen. Again, Tevez being dropped was to allow Messi to shine. Both players were playing in the same positions and making the same runs. Since then/Maradona leaving Messi has been the focus of everything they've done. As for the World Cup, I don't agree at all, I didn't think he was anything special in 2010 when Argentina altogether were poor, but I thought in 2014 aside from the final he and Mascherano were excellent. If he'd buried that chance, or Higuain had scored that one on one, I think it would be remembered as the World Cup that Messi won. He was obviously their most important player and they got to the final, where they should have won. He doesn't show the unbelievable quality at anyway near the consistency if at all at International level though. Even his good games at the last World Cup would have been average games for him in La Liga, if that makes sense Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 People keep saying the World Cup is a low level trophy. It is however the premier International trophy. I still believe it is the highest accolade a professional football player can win. International football doesn't have the same aura about it today. I think that football is worse off for that . He's the best player on the only team in the history of club football to win the treble twice, he's won the CL recognised as the premier club competition 4 times. All this in less than a decade and he's young enough to repeat it, the whole notion he needs a WC is very silly to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 People keep saying the World Cup is a low level trophy. It is however the premier International trophy. I still believe it is the highest accolade a professional football player can win. International football doesn't have the same aura about it today. I think that football is worse off for that . I'd like it to still feel that way, but it's lost its meaning imo. Diego Costa being Brazilian, then oop, actually he's Spanish. Players like Ibrahimovic will never be seen as being the greatest of all time, but if they were, would people hold back their opinion on him because he hasn't won a World Cup? Pele was in one of the best teams of all time and won the World Cup and that somehow means more than Messi playing in one of the best teams of all time and winning the Champions League and the league and the Ballon D'Or time and time again? It doesn't make any sense to me, why is one viewed in higher regard than the other? If Messi had declared himself Spanish when the Spanish FA tried to get him to sign and he won the Euros twice and the World Cup, would that make him a better player, or is Torres/David Villa winning it with Spain a higher achievement than what Messi has done? It's all so contentious, I just think it should be what you see and at what level. For me the Champions League is the ultimate competition in terms of football at the very highest level. That final yesterday was very good. Even when chances weren't being created the level in quality of the football was outstanding by both teams. That being the par, puts it above most of the mid-level World Cup matches. Because the World Cup, even today is harder to win than the Champions League. That's a fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's always underperformed for the national team at vital stages. My only negative thing on him. Clearly the best I've seen anyways. That's simply not true anymore like. He underperformed in the final, but he was the player that got them there in the first place despite still being injured. Argentina didn't play to his strengths for a long time. Stop it. It's very true for all WC kncokout stages and Copa America knogkoutstages he's been in. I'm saying, it's not true anymore. Since Maradona left he's been loads better for Argentina. Maradona left before the 2011 Copa America where Argentina (where Tevez also played) were as big of disappointments as Brazil and Messi didn't perform at what is expected. At the World Cup he wasn't good either, tbh his best WC came under Maradona in 2010, because despite not scoring many goals he was constantly a threat. In Brazil it was the other way around, he wasn't fantastic but was scoring goals in the group stage. But in terms of vital game (talking purely knockout stages) he's been well below par. Doesn't take away from the fact that he's the best I've seen. Again, Tevez being dropped was to allow Messi to shine. Both players were playing in the same positions and making the same runs. Since then/Maradona leaving Messi has been the focus of everything they've done. As for the World Cup, I don't agree at all, I didn't think he was anything special in 2010 when Argentina altogether were poor, but I thought in 2014 aside from the final he and Mascherano were excellent. If he'd buried that chance, or Higuain had scored that one on one, I think it would be remembered as the World Cup that Messi won. He was obviously their most important player and they got to the final, where they should have won. He doesn't show the unbelievable quality at anyway near the consistency if at all at International level though. Even his good games at the last World Cup would have been average games for him in La Liga, if that makes sense I get what you're saying, but those average games were still often the difference. There's no getting away from the fact that for a long time Argentina Messi and Barca Messi were nothing alike, but it's getting nearer to that imo and improved greatly once they asked him how he wanted to play and how to get the best out of him. It still goes without saying that if he'd scored in the final, or even if Higuain had, then history would have been re-written regarding his place in history. Everyone would talk about his goals in the World Cup and about how he's one of, if not the greatest of all time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 He's always underperformed for the national team at vital stages. My only negative thing on him. Clearly the best I've seen anyways. That's simply not true anymore like. He underperformed in the final, but he was the player that got them there in the first place despite still being injured. Argentina didn't play to his strengths for a long time. Stop it. It's very true for all WC kncokout stages and Copa America knogkoutstages he's been in. I'm saying, it's not true anymore. Since Maradona left he's been loads better for Argentina. Maradona left before the 2011 Copa America where Argentina (where Tevez also played) were as big of disappointments as Brazil and Messi didn't perform at what is expected. At the World Cup he wasn't good either, tbh his best WC came under Maradona in 2010, because despite not scoring many goals he was constantly a threat. In Brazil it was the other way around, he wasn't fantastic but was scoring goals in the group stage. But in terms of vital game (talking purely knockout stages) he's been well below par. Doesn't take away from the fact that he's the best I've seen. Again, Tevez being dropped was to allow Messi to shine. Both players were playing in the same positions and making the same runs. Since then/Maradona leaving Messi has been the focus of everything they've done. As for the World Cup, I don't agree at all, I didn't think he was anything special in 2010 when Argentina altogether were poor, but I thought in 2014 aside from the final he and Mascherano were excellent. If he'd buried that chance, or Higuain had scored that one on one, I think it would be remembered as the World Cup that Messi won. He was obviously their most important player and they got to the final, where they should have won. He doesn't show the unbelievable quality at anyway near the consistency if at all at International level though. Even his good games at the last World Cup would have been average games for him in La Liga, if that makes sense I get what you're saying, but those average games were still often the difference. There's no getting away from the fact that for a long time Argentina Messi and Barca Messi were nothing alike, but it's getting nearer to that imo and improved greatly once they asked him how he wanted to play and how to get the best out of him. It still goes without saying that if he'd scored in the final, or even if Higuain had, then history would have been re-written regarding his place in history. Everyone would talk about his goals in the World Cup and about how he's one of, if not the greatest of all time. Agreed, he is one of the all time greats as is, without winning a World Cup, like Cruyff before him. And George Best, who never even played in the finals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 I don't think the WC is harder to win than the CL. It only seems hard because it comes around every 4 years but the level of competition isn't that good. I bet all four semi finalists of the CL this year would beat Germany in a head to head tie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 People keep saying the World Cup is a low level trophy. It is however the premier International trophy. I still believe it is the highest accolade a professional football player can win. International football doesn't have the same aura about it today. I think that football is worse off for that . I'd like it to still feel that way, but it's lost its meaning imo. Diego Costa being Brazilian, then oop, actually he's Spanish. Players like Ibrahimovic will never be seen as being the greatest of all time, but if they were, would people hold back their opinion on him because he hasn't won a World Cup? Pele was in one of the best teams of all time and won the World Cup and that somehow means more than Messi playing in one of the best teams of all time and winning the Champions League and the league and the Ballon D'Or time and time again? It doesn't make any sense to me, why is one viewed in higher regard than the other? If Messi had declared himself Spanish when the Spanish FA tried to get him to sign and he won the Euros twice and the World Cup, would that make him a better player, or is Torres/David Villa winning it with Spain a higher achievement than what Messi has done? It's all so contentious, I just think it should be what you see and at what level. For me the Champions League is the ultimate competition in terms of football at the very highest level. That final yesterday was very good. Even when chances weren't being created the level in quality of the football was outstanding by both teams. That being the par, puts it above most of the mid-level World Cup matches. Because the World Cup, even today is harder to win than the Champions League. That's a fact. Well, it's your opinion tbf. I don't see how it is... National teams in the World Cup are helped or hindered by the pot luck of where your player or an opposition player was born in terms of the quality of their squad and the quality of the squads they come up against Club teams in the Champions League are helped or hindered by the quality of the players that they've chosen or the opposition has chosen in terms of the quality of their squad and the quality of the squads they come up against. If the difficulty is shared, how is there any difference? How is the World Cup harder to win? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Well nobody will win the World Cup this, next or the year after either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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