Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Flip]

[Tooj]

I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi.

 

Nah as he's not even the best Ronaldo of the last 15 years.

[Village Idiot]

I think he's the best Ronaldo of the past 15 years. Might have been different had the fat one not f***ed up his knees, but one can't deny Cronaldo's record and performance even if he's a cunt.

[Flip]

Ronaldo pre knee injuries played at a much higher level than the current Ronaldo. His knees might have messed his career up but there is no doubt who was the better player in my opinion. Ronaldo in his prime would've been 2nd best now by quite a distance.

[Guest palnese]

CRonaldo > Ronaldo

 

Unfortunately.

[Village Idiot]

Ronaldo only was two years in his prime, Cronaldo has been great for 5-6 years now. Consistency and extended success is a big part of greatness to me (otherwise I'd place people like Ronaldinho very near the top), even if Ronaldo's problems were because of injuries.

[The College Dropout]

Cronaldo's been in a national side that been to numerous finals and a SF and he's never delivered. That's the biggest blight on his career.

 

That Euro's SF sums it up.

[Flip]

Ronaldo only was two years in his prime, Cronaldo has been great for 5-6 years now. Consistency and extended success is a big part of greatness to me (otherwise I'd place people like Ronaldinho very near the top), even if Ronaldo's problems were because of injuries.

 

Two years? Two years?

 

You know as well as me as the real Ronaldo was in his prime from the day he went to PSV and it lasted until at least his second season in Madrid. That roughly 8-9 years, whereas he played for the most part of 4-5 years.

[Guest firetotheworks]

CRonaldo's class but he's not in the best of all time bracket and isn't the best Ronaldo imo. Longevity isn't an all conquering attribute. Ronaldo at his best and CRonaldo at his best, no question that the Brazilian was the better. He was simply a phenomena.

[The College Dropout]

IMO the international argument is worse for Cronaldo than it is for Messi.

[Flip]

IMO the international argument is worse for Cronaldo than it is for Messi.

 

Really isn't though is it? CRonaldo has came top 4 in three big tournaments. Messi has in zero.

 

 

[Flip]

CRonaldo's class but he's not in the best of all time bracket and isn't the best Ronaldo imo. Longevity isn't an all conquering attribute. Ronaldo at his best and CRonaldo at his best, no question that the Brazilian was the better. He was simply a phenomena.

 

 

Surprised VI said anything other, he experienced Ronaldo in his absolute prime too. A FAT Ronaldo was still scoring tons of goals in Spain and Italy. The man was something beyond unbelievable as a player.

[Taylor Swift]

I have three points to make:

 

Pele scored against those teams in friendlies. The key is that they were friendlies.

 

Football is a much more difficult game nowadays. Whatever you say, you look at the goal scoring of each league and it is way lower than it was in the 60s. For whatever reason, it is harder to score a goal now today than it was before. So a goal today matters more than it did before. You talk about s*** pitches, about poor refereeing, rough play, whatever you want to talk about, in the end, more goals were scored on average then than now. Just basic statistics, bro.

 

The population of footballers these days is also vastly greater than before. Pele may be a King amongst men but he was a King in a small village. Messi is the King of the world.

 

Look, I see where you're coming from, but I hope you understand that these 'friendlies' weren't friendlies like they are today. You know that right? Teams played for money and honour back then, especially since there was a tense rivalry between the European and South American clubs. Those were extremely important and teams really wanted to win. It's not like the friendlies today where you put half a team on and there is no touching of the opposition to prevent injuries.

 

Also you do realize that Real Madrid of last season is the 7th most effective goalscoring team of all times in Spanish football? Behind 4 Athletic Bilbao teams who scored a boatload in the 30's? Not that it says anything, but Barcelona and Real Madrid of last season are the two teams who have scored the most ever in Spanish football, so how does that translate into your argument that you scored more back then? In general maybe but both Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi have been part in the most scoring Spanish sides ever.

 

Once again, I'm a big fan of Messi and the person who isn't doesn't really appreciate football or is a Madrid fan.

 

Cruyff makes an excellent point when he says:

 

“What everyone should be especially happy about is that every era has its own heroes. Why would one be less than the other? Pele was a hero in his time, I was in my period and Messi’s time is now. He is a joy to behold.”

 

Also didn't know that Pele scored a hattrick against Newcastle back in '72.

 

Er, the reason Barcelona is so prolific is because they have Messi?

 

It's kind of a circular argument. Ronaldo is also a supreme athlete. He's probably the best athlete out of all the great footballers in history with Pele coming in a close second. He jumps higher than any defender, he's faster than everyone else on the pitch and he can strike the ball, with a certain degree of control, harder than anyone else on Earth. The guy is insanely good. Why are Real and Barca so prolific? Probably because they have two historic players playing for them.

 

In general, it's harder to score now than in the past when Pele played. This is borne out by the average goals per game in the Brazilian leagues back then compared to today. It's just a fact, man. I don't think it makes sense to argue that these two are only scoring insane amount of goals because defenders in general are shit because these two also score in the CL and internationals so if you want to argue that, you're essentially arguing that defending is just shit right now. You can take that path but in the end, you're still admitting that these two are so far above everyone else in the game right now.

 

You look at other players and teams and no one else is doing this. That's because they're not capable, not because they don't want to.

 

So if we agree that these two are so far ahead of their peers, and you also take into account how many more footballers there are today and thus how harder it is to be so much better than everyone else (a simple case of sample size and standard deviation), what we're witnessing today is historic. Ronaldo would be just below Maradona and Pele if Messi wasn't playing. But because he is, Ronaldo's flaws, namely his lack of all round influence and control of matches, is highlighted with far more effect than if Messi were to not exist. That's why Ronaldo is sitting comfortably in the second tier, in time edging himself ahead of Zidane, Xavi etc, and it's why the first tier has only four players (the three plus Cruyff), and why Messi, if he keeps this up for five years, even if he never wins the WC, will be, by virtue of the insane amount of records that he'll break, be universally accepted as the greatest.

[Village Idiot]

Hey, I'll be happy if you convince me that Ronaldo Nazario is the best, I love him. But I just don't think it's the case.

 

 

[Taylor Swift]

You'd obviously take this Ronaldo if you could pick between the two to build your team around because of his longevity but if you could pick them at their peaks for a one match winner take all, you'd pick Fat Ronaldo. The latter's peak was sensational.

 

The insane thing about Messi is that you'd pick him over anyone else if you could pick any peak version of any player for a one match winner take all and you would, in time I expect, pick him to build your team around. He just has to do it for a few more seasons, and obviously a WC would shut every moron out there up too.

[Flip]

 

I'm not taking you seriously, brah. How can you say all this about CRonaldo is beyond me. You talk absolute nonsense. CRonaldo isn't even close to being part of the most successful bracket of players.

 

On the other hand I hope Messi keeps this up for five years but then again you will have to take so much into consideration to compare him with Maradona and Pele and so on. Its an endless discussion, what isn't though is your statement about CRonaldo.

 

 

[Flip]

 

 

The insane thing about Messi is that you'd pick him over anyone else if you could pick any peak version of any player for a one match winner take all and you would, in time I expect, pick him to build your team around. 

 

[Flip]

[Flip]

I'd honestly take the man who was the main man of two World Cup winning teams and another endless amount of titles.

[Flip]

VI you probably saw him more, but how did you rate Hugo Sanchez? Is Falcao another Hugo Sanchez in your opinion? A great goalscorer who will never be considered among the greats?

[Village Idiot]

Hugo Sánchez was the battering ram of one of the greatest Real Madrid sides, and his record when playing for other teams never reached the same levels. He had guys like Míchel and Martín Vázquez crossing for him, Butragueño playing off him, Schuster and Hierro putting the through balls...

So while I think although both are/where ultimate finishers, Falcao has a bigger capacity of feeding from scraps (Atlético's side really is good, but not great), turning the shittiest ball in the box into goals. I think he can carry a team, like he's doing for Atleti, while Sánchez was a great player for an already great team.

 

Also I think Sánchez' recognition is harmed by lack of success in Europe while he was at Real Madrid. And Mexico never doing much.

[AlanSkÃrare]

What about Falcao and Cavani - they seem similar in stature and Cavani having enjoyed a similar progression in terms of goalscoring. I've seen far more of Cavani.

 

VI - how do you rate Falcao compared to Cavani?

[Mole_Toonfan]

Messi already has 23 league goals this season, enough to have won the Pichichi award 26 times.

 

[Flip]

I love Cavani man, he can play across a front 3, he's not a pure striker although he does play it very well. Think it was last season in the CL him and Lavezzi never stopped running against Chelsea. Amazing stamina both of them.

[Village Idiot]

I haven't seen much of Cavani outside Napoli European games and Uruguay games, so I can't really compare the two. He seems to me less of a classic centreforward and more dynamic than Falcao, though.