Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 That still doesn't make sense to your original argument HTT. Which was?! For me I don't buy the it was easier to score back then line basically because it wasn't no matter what the stats may say. Alan Smith won more trophies than Shearer but I know who was the better player... It was just as hard if not more so to score back then than today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Juventus: Peruzzi; Torricelli, Iuliano, Montero; Di Livio, Deschamps, Davids, Pessotto; Zidane; Inzaghi, Del Piero. Inter: Pagliuca; Fresi; West, Colonnese, Zanetti; Moriero, Winter, Simeone, Cauet; Djorkaeff, Ronaldo. Look at the difference in the starting lineups of those teams man. So they had Paglicua, Zanetti and Ronaldo? Taribo West ffs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Peyroteo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Bican http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Binder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eus%C3%A9bio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferenc_Puskas Look at those goalscorer records Yes, before Pele's era but it shoes you the transformation of the game tactically and in terms of professionalism. There will be short-term trends where the game is more defensive or attack minded (I'd say right now the game is more open in Europe than it was say 5-6 years ago, say) but on the whole the progression of the sport has lead to less goals being scored decade on decade. That's what makes Messi's achievement all the more impressive, I don't think anybody expected Mueller's record to be broken in the modern era. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Fuck stats btw, theory is where it's at... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 But your theory is contracting itself man, you say teams/players were given more freedom to be expressive and as such the game was far more open which meant more teams scored... then claim it was harder to score? It makes no sense Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi. Nah as he's not even the best Ronaldo of the last 15 years. I was checking some of his stats last night and they're really bloody insane. I was unfortunately too young to appreciate his PSV/Barca years when they were happening so all I have to go off are videos and compilations which I've watched and rewatched. But f***ing hell man. What a player in all regards of his game. I know you're a particularly big fan of his, would you say he's underrated in the general context of players of the past 30-40 years? I still think he's unfairly tainted because of his more turbulent later years. Another one whose career was littered with bad advice and was corrupted by his advisers. How was his career littered with bad advice? Here is how Ronaldo reacted when he was sold from Barcelona to Inter-Milan for an unheard of sum, a combined $48 million in transfer fees: he cried in sadness. He cried all night. Ronaldo had been happy in Barcelona. He’d built a house over the cliff on the Bay of Castelldefels, and the view reminded him of Rio. He was in Norway for the weekend with the Brazilian national team, and he learned of the sale by telephone from his agent in Italy. The next morning at the training table, Ronaldo’s eyes were red and he asked to be excused. That afternoon, Brazil suffered their first defeat in three years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Juventus: Peruzzi; Torricelli, Iuliano, Montero; Di Livio, Deschamps, Davids, Pessotto; Zidane; Inzaghi, Del Piero. Inter: Pagliuca; Fresi; West, Colonnese, Zanetti; Moriero, Winter, Simeone, Cauet; Djorkaeff, Ronaldo. Look at the difference in the starting lineups of those teams man. So they had Paglicua, Zanetti and Ronaldo? Taribo West ffs. Djorkaeff was to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just out of interest, would anyone put any current defenders in an all-time great list? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Then why has the average number of goals scored fallen dramatically? Your argument makes no sense HTT, you say it was harder to score yet the bare facts say that everybody scored more goals? HTT just thinks it was harder to score then, damn the facts and evidence, man. His arguments are as cloudy as yours though tbf. Arguing that CRonaldo would be among the absolute best ever. Oh god. I talk about statistics and I back what I say with facts. This Ronaldo is insanely good, there's no doubt about it. No team in the world can stop him from doing his thing, it's just that his thing isn't as effective as Messi's thing, but it's more effective than anyone else's in the past twenty years, when you take into account how long he has done it for. You don't back up you're stats though do you. I told you to check out the amount of goalscored in the La Liga back then and you will see its not that different to today as you try to make it out as. It's on the international scene, where Messi doesn't excel anyways that it really has changed A LOT! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Juventus: Peruzzi; Torricelli, Iuliano, Montero; Di Livio, Deschamps, Davids, Pessotto; Zidane; Inzaghi, Del Piero. Inter: Pagliuca; Fresi; West, Colonnese, Zanetti; Moriero, Winter, Simeone, Cauet; Djorkaeff, Ronaldo. Look at the difference in the starting lineups of those teams man. So they had Paglicua, Zanetti and Ronaldo? Taribo West ffs. Djorkaeff was to be honest. But he was french. And in those days no one liked the french. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just out of interest, would anyone put any current defenders in an all-time great list? Zanetti. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just out of interest, would anyone put any current defenders in an all-time great list? Zanetti possibly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Palnese thought you were going to say Anderson... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Colossus Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just out of interest, would anyone put any current defenders in an all-time great list? Zanetti. Nesta. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just out of interest, would anyone put any current defenders in an all-time great list? Zanetti. Nesta. No. Baresi, Maldini were both better than him tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nesta. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Palnese thought you were going to say Anderson... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just out of interest, would anyone put any current defenders in an all-time great list? Zanetti. Nesta. No. Baresi, Maldini were both better than him tbh. And all 3 belong to the list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Aye HTT I don't know what you are going on about However, brah, go check out the league table from La Liga from 58/59. Check the goal amounts and compare to today. It's not a massive difference. Scoring has declined about 10-20%, in general, over the past forty years. I think it's declined by even more in the Brazilian league, meaning Pele played in a time which was far easier to rack up goals. Why has scoring declined? Probably lots of reasons: advance in technology has eroded the difference in athleticism between the most athletic and the average, meaning most players are strong and fast, leading to a higher average level than before. Also, the population of footballers has increased exponentially. This again means that the best teams will now have multiple players who are sublime whereas before, simply due to a lack of players, teams had lesser good players, therefore there was a greater difference in quality between teams in general. I'm not sure this is true, you'd have to look at goals difference of the best and worst teams and do a regression. I'd say that since money exploded in football, there has been a reversal in this trend to a point but we are still seeing more parity today than before, although that's now restricted to the foremost tier of teams. There are also more teams today, so the population argument only goes so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 So how would your back four look like then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 But your theory is contracting itself man, you say teams/players were given more freedom to be expressive and as such the game was far more open which meant more teams scored... then claim it was harder to score? It makes no sense It's not, I'm arguing against the it was easier to score back then line when in reality it wasn't or certainly no more easier than today. More goals were score back then than today aye but not because it was err easier, that's just doing teams, players and that era injustice. I'm saying more were scored because teams and players were less defensive and given more freedom to express themselves etc. Andy Cole never scored as many as he did for us in a season for Man Utd despite playing in a better side with better players why was that? Mentality man... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I do understand you mean now HTT, but it's still contradicting in a way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nesta. Aye me as well never got to see Baresi live and Maldini was not as good a defender as Nesta IMO he was a better footballer but i think Nesta was a better defender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just out of interest, would anyone put any current defenders in an all-time great list? It's difficult because generally players that are deemed good enough to be amongst the best ever would have the attributes to play in a different position. TBF I think the same is true of amazing, pure finishers. The best I've seen is Maldini, easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nesta. Aye me as well never got to see Baresi live and Maldini was not as good a defender as Nesta IMO he was a better footballer but i think Nesta was a better defender. Aye, Nesta's ability to somehow always steal the ball is supernatural. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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