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Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?


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Way to make a non-point and discredit yourself there 'pao.

 

Way to not see the point. Messi never took growth hormones? Im just saying that people go out saying Pele would never make it nowadays, what says Messi would make it without them back in the 50s and 60s?

 

If you can give me a valid reason. Please do. Ive said all along that I love Messi but Tooj made a very good and concrete post showing the ignorance of many on here.

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Way to make a non-point and discredit yourself there 'pao.

 

Way to not see the point. Messi never took growth hormones? Im just saying that people go out saying Pele would never make it nowadays, what says Messi would make it without them back in the 50s and 60s?

 

If you can give me a valid reason. Please do. Ive said all along that I love Messi but Tooj made a very good and concrete post showing the ignorance of many on here.

 

 

Superb post on Pele btw, last line is spot on.

 

I'm not one of them RE: Pele being unable play nowadays and if I was it's such a non-argument that it should be discarded anyway.

 

Just believe the Messi hormone thing is a total cheap shot and more or less totally irrelevant.

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Way to make a non-point and discredit yourself there 'pao.

 

Way to not see the point. Messi never took growth hormones? Im just saying that people go out saying Pele would never make it nowadays, what says Messi would make it without them back in the 50s and 60s?

 

If you can give me a valid reason. Please do. Ive said all along that I love Messi but Tooj made a very good and concrete post showing the ignorance of many on here.

 

 

Superb post on Pele btw, last line is spot on.

 

I'm not one of them RE: Pele being unable play nowadays and if I was it's such a non-argument that it should be discarded anyway.

 

Just believe the Messi hormone thing is a total cheap shot and more or less totally irrelevant.

 

Oh I do agree with you, but it's totally relevant when people go on about how other players wouldn't cope nowadays.

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Guest ObiChrisKenobi

I found out the other day that he's not even Brazilian, he's from Sweden or something. Sweden. Sweden.

 

:lol: cheeky bastard. I live in sweden ffs.

 

Well, I was talking about you.  :lol:

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Way to not see the point. Messi never took growth hormones?

 

how big is messi now out of interest, was he a hobbit before barca swooped on with their magic growth pills i wonder?

 

his game has very little to do with physique so unless he was literally a tiny, tiny cripple prior to the GH treatment it's a shit point

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Without the injections of growth hormones he would probably not been able to live a normal life. He was born with a deficiency where his pituitary gland  doesn't produce these growth hormones, there are cases where children who don't receive treatment have problems with not only height but muscle development deficiency as well. So no it's not a shit point to make that he wouldn't be the footballer he is today without the treatment.

 

I'm NOT saying Messi isn't the best in the world or debating whether he is or isn't the best ever right now. I'm just trying to explain the reasoning behind my argument and not trying to take a cheap shot. I'm not calling it doping or performance enhancing, some people grow up with deficinencies and thankfully the world and science has reached the stage where there are treatments for most things in life, and that people can live a healthier life.

 

This is all RE: Pele wouldn't make it in this ERA.

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Guest tollemache

On what grounds wouldn't Pele have made it now? He'd have the same facilities as everyone else, just as he did then. The concept of being freakishly more talented and having better technique than anyone else hasn't changed. In fact the game now, being as it is way more focused on technique and less on physicality, would tend to make him appear even better than he did then, as he wouldn't be exposed to such constant physical intimidation.

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Guest Howaythetoon

Pele was technically and physically way ahead of most in his day and would still be today. At the time, he was as Messi is today, a freak of nature.

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That's the point I've been trying to make for many months on here right now. In terms of talent, Pele is as good as it gets. Maradona, Zico, Messi, Garrincha are in tier right below. That's my personal opinion obviousy.

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Guest Howaythetoon

That's the point I've been trying to make for many months on here right now. In terms of talent, Pele is as good as it gets. Maradona, Zico, Messi, Garrincha are in tier right below. That's my personal opinion obviousy.

 

I agree actually. Messi is amazing as we all know and already a world great, right the way up there with Pele but Pele is Pele and will never be bettered. Its not just about his ability, what he won, the goals he scored, his style of play etc. its the legend of Pele. In all of the years before Pele there was nothing like him and never has been since, and never will be. We have seen a good number damn close, probably Maradona runs him the closest and Ronaldo would have but for those injuries. Messi may eclipse his stats and win more trophies but as a legend, as an icon, as a true true great and that's what we are debating here, not talent, nothing will ever eclipse Pele in the sport of football.

 

Everyone knows about Pele, kids not even born yet will know about Pele. There was no internet, global game coverage etc. back in Pele's day which makes his legend all the more magnificent.

 

Don't get me wrong, in terms of ability and what he can do with a football, Messi is on a par with Pele, but he will never be as great as Pele in terms of greatness which transcends mere ability alone.

 

Pele is the godfather of football basically. The boss.

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Guest firetotheworks

I don't think that's true at all. If Pele  was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening.

 

It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus.

 

Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet.

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Kid Icarus, you're actually typing non-sense there.

 

In the basketball world, even in our own forum, we have had discussions about whether Jordan was the absolute best. It's nowhere near being a consensus. Also taking Valentino Rossi and Tiger Woods into such a discussions shows a lack of recognition to that both of them are stars at sports competing individually. I mean, in football you have to take so much into consideration and the same goes for Jordan, and basketball.

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Guest Howaythetoon

I don't think that's true at all. If Pele  was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening.

 

It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus.

 

Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet.

 

Its simple, for me Messi based on ability is one of the very best to have ever played the game, up there with Pele, no doubts about it. As a great though, I don't think anyone will ever topple Pele. They may outscore him, win more etc. but no name will ever be bigger than Pele's. Just look at this very debate, 40 years or so after he was in his prime, with most never having seen him play live, and still we cannot escape his name, despite what we are seeing with Messi which is staggering what he is achieving and how he is playing.

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Guest tollemache

Don't see how you can relegate Maradona into some kind of second tier... he single-handedly dominated pretty much every game he played in for a long time, carried his country to the World Cup, carried an ok Napoli side to the scudetto. In terms of having a freakish impact and towering above his peers, he was every bit as dominant as Pele.

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Guest tollemache

I don't think that's true at all. If Pele  was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening.

 

It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus.

 

Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet.

 

Its simple, for me Messi based on ability is one of the very best to have ever played the game, up there with Pele, no doubts about it. As a great though, I don't think anyone will ever topple Pele. They may outscore him, win more etc. but no name will ever be bigger than Pele's. Just look at this very debate, 40 years or so after he was in his prime, with most never having seen him play live, and still we cannot escape his name, despite what we are seeing with Messi which is staggering what he is achieving and how he is playing.

 

You don't think people will be calling Messi the greatest player ever 40 years from now?

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Don't see how you can relegate Maradona into some kind of second tier... he single-handedly dominated pretty much every game he played in for a long time, carried his country to the World Cup, carried an ok Napoli side to the scudetto. In terms of having a freakish impact and towering above his peers, he was every bit as dominant as Pele.

 

And if we now also include pop culture impact in gauging a footballer's "greatness", you can hardly deny El Diego's

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Guest Howaythetoon

I don't think that's true at all. If Pele  was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening.

 

It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus.

 

Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet.

 

Its simple, for me Messi based on ability is one of the very best to have ever played the game, up there with Pele, no doubts about it. As a great though, I don't think anyone will ever topple Pele. They may outscore him, win more etc. but no name will ever be bigger than Pele's. Just look at this very debate, 40 years or so after he was in his prime, with most never having seen him play live, and still we cannot escape his name, despite what we are seeing with Messi which is staggering what he is achieving and how he is playing.

 

You don't think people will be calling Messi the greatest player ever 40 years from now?

 

I don't, no. Not unless he goes onto win 3 world cups or something. I'm not for one minute saying that is the benchmark, because its not.

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Guest firetotheworks

Kid Icarus, you're actually typing non-sense there.

 

In the basketball world, even in our own forum, we have had discussions about whether Jordan was the absolute best. It's nowhere near being a consensus. Also taking Valentino Rossi and Tiger Woods into such a discussions shows a lack of recognition to that both of them are stars at sports competing individually. I mean, in football you have to take so much into consideration and the same goes for Jordan, and basketball.

 

Okay, no need to get your knickers in a twist. It was in response to HTT re: being the best AND the biggest icon within a sport.

 

Jordan, Rossi and possibly Woods and are THE undisputed icons of their sports, that much is obvious.

 

As far as this team vs individual sport goes, I'm sorry but you're dead wrong. Moto GP is a team sport and although Rossi showed his individual brilliance by going to a losing team and winning, you could argue that that is why he is the best (the same argument comes up with Maradona '86 WC). You could also look at someone like Vettel and question (but never answer) where he would be outside of Red Bull. Of course it's a team sport.

 

As for Jordan, I'll back off a bit there. Im not big on basketball, but have friends that are and every single one will pontificate about this player and that, but all of them either talk about him being the best or there's almost an admission that he is. It might be a generation thing, I've just never heard, seen or read a debate, it's always been Jordan, Jordan, Jordan in my experience. As an icon in sport though, he's to basketball what Mickey is to Disney imo.

 

Football doesn't have that person and I don't just mean commercially. Maradona and Pele are always the two talked of, Cruiyff and Best too. All are massive icons in their own right . None are undisputed as the best or most iconic in football imo. This  generation will predominantly talk of Messi as the best ever...at this precise moment. He's 25, there's more than enough time for him to be undisputedly the best, but he will have to do it all to get there. Everything, all of it.

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Guest tollemache

I don't think that's true at all. If Pele  was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening.

 

It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus.

 

Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet.

 

Its simple, for me Messi based on ability is one of the very best to have ever played the game, up there with Pele, no doubts about it. As a great though, I don't think anyone will ever topple Pele. They may outscore him, win more etc. but no name will ever be bigger than Pele's. Just look at this very debate, 40 years or so after he was in his prime, with most never having seen him play live, and still we cannot escape his name, despite what we are seeing with Messi which is staggering what he is achieving and how he is playing.

 

You don't think people will be calling Messi the greatest player ever 40 years from now?

 

I don't, no. Not unless he goes onto win 3 world cups or something. I'm not for one minute saying that is the benchmark, because its not.

 

Surprised to hear it. I think even if he retired now he's made a half-convincing case for having been the best player ever. I think people will rhapsodize about him and Cronaldo for as long as I live

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