Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Dinho lad]

Hardly Iniesta's fault that he played in a better team in an attacking sense than Zidane.

 

Also Zidane wasn't considerably better at international level than Iniesta at all. Iniesta was sublime in both the 2010 World Cup and Euro 2012.

 

We can agree to disagree. Personally don't see how Iniesta ever got close to Euro 2000 Zidane. Absolutely nowhere near that at any stage of his career for Spain.

 

Absolutely. Zidane was unreal at Euro 2000. (As was Figoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!)

[Guest palnese]

I know that it's still always going to come down to opinion, but the sheer volume of people claiming that he's the best they've ever seen (who have seen or played with or against Pele, Maradona etc) is really impressive.

 

http://proudbarcelonista.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/quotes-about-lionel-messi/

 

Pele (Ex Brazil) – “I like Messi a lot, he’s a great player. Technically, we’re practically at the same level.”

 

[Zero]

I think both Cristiano and Messi are relatively poor in leading a team and bringing out the best of their teammates.

[Incognito]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

That last paragraph is bollocks. I'm not being contrary and Ive seen better than Messi in my lifetime. Ive seen one or two on the same level too.

[Guest firetotheworks]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

That last paragraph is bollocks. I'm not being contrary and Ive seen better than Messi in my lifetime. Ive seen one or two on the same level too.

 

You're a bit older than me, but if you were the same age as me my argument would simply be that you haven't.

[Guest palnese]

Agree with KI.

 

I'll never be in a position to rank Pele or Maradona as I've never watched either, apart from a few youtube clips.

 

[Incognito]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

That last paragraph is bollocks. I'm not being contrary and Ive seen better than Messi in my lifetime. Ive seen one or two on the same level too.

 

You're a bit older than me, but if you were the same age as me my argument would simply be that you haven't.

Yes I guess so.

[tmonkey]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

 

"Best" is ambiguous/subjective though. Best:

 

- Over the course of an entire season at club level? Definitely. Greatest player ever for me in that context.

- Best in the big games? Not by a long shot. I've always felt Messi was thoroughly disappointing at CL/interinational level against quality/on form defenses. Inter over two legs, Chelsea over four, even the 2 CL finals against ManU where he was ultimately quiet/poor imo. Athletico Madrid in the CL this year. 2010 World Cup when Maradona was blamed, 2014 World Cup when the World Cup was blamed.

- Best at international level? Nowhere near.

 

I'd take Messi over anyone else if you wanted to win a domestic league. Knockouts of the CL and World Cup, I'd much rather have someone who has proven they can pull the strings in big games when the attention will be on them, rather than someone who goes out without a whimper. Same applies for Cristiano Ronaldo. Amazing over a domestic season, but e.g. Figo was better on the international stage and in big CL games.

 

P.S. bit of a coincidence that both Messi and Ronaldo flop at international level, and even in the latter stages of the CL against top defenses? Ronaldo has flopped alot more, including in the CL where he's been majorly disappointing far more often than not in the knockout stages. They're ridiculous goalscoring players but neither are anything like as well rounded as some of the other legends they're being compared to. IMO anyway.

 

Messi that scored in both Champions League finals and was Man of the Match in both? He's undoubtedly a big game player as well. I've listed the finals that he's scored in. I dunno, it just seems like everyone's suddenly forgotten because of the World Cup Final. It's honestly on the level of being 'if you don't think he's the best you've ever seen (unless you've seen Pele or Maradona) then you're either being a contrarian, or you know nothing about football.' It's on that level of pig-headed arrogance about it. To me suggesting otherwise is totally insane.

 

Scored in those finals (one a header from a cross after being out of the game for most of the match, and the other a frustrated shot straight down the middle that should have been saved by an aging keeper who retried straight after), yes, but in both games against ManU he was ultimately kept very quiet. I'm going by what I've seen in those games - imo neither performance was good nor up to Messi's normal standards. He played no better than e.g. David Villa or Pedro, who also scored in those finals iirc. I just wanted to see him have great games against the top sides when the pressure is high, not just be clamped down on and reduced to maybe scoring an unexpected goal to mask an average/poor performance - evidently that was an unrealistic expectation.

 

As an analogy for this point of view, Zidane's 98 World Cup final goals, and his volley (probably one of the greatest volleys of all time behind van Basten's) against Leverkusen in the CL final, neither of them weigh all that heavily on how I rate him as a great, as imo in both games he was fairly poor/quiet overall. What I rate Zidane on is the numerous big games for club and country in crunch stages of the biggest competitions (CL, European Championships, World Cup) where he dominated games, pulled the strings, tore a quality team apart or damaged them psychologically by toying with them. E.g. Zidane over two legs vs one of the best ManU sides Alex Ferguson had in the 02/03 CL, he didn't score any goals and didn't get any assists (unless that pass to Figo counts as one), but he was phenomenal in those games, utterly untouchable, and was just as good against Juve in the semi's where his team got knocked out because they couldn't defend. The fact that he didn't score goals in these games, didn't win a trophy, didn't even get to the CL final that season, means little to me - he was utter class in the big games against top teams, and that's the baseline for me (performances over stats). I believe my views to be consistent in this regard. I think Zidane has had considerably better games in the biggest competitions against top calibre opposition than Messi in this regard, hence why I would hesitate to say Messi was definitely better - it depends on context/scenario for me.

[Incognito]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

 

"Best" is ambiguous/subjective though. Best:

 

- Over the course of an entire season at club level? Definitely. Greatest player ever for me in that context.

- Best in the big games? Not by a long shot. I've always felt Messi was thoroughly disappointing at CL/interinational level against quality/on form defenses. Inter over two legs, Chelsea over four, even the 2 CL finals against ManU where he was ultimately quiet/poor imo. Athletico Madrid in the CL this year. 2010 World Cup when Maradona was blamed, 2014 World Cup when the World Cup was blamed.

- Best at international level? Nowhere near.

 

I'd take Messi over anyone else if you wanted to win a domestic league. Knockouts of the CL and World Cup, I'd much rather have someone who has proven they can pull the strings in big games when the attention will be on them, rather than someone who goes out without a whimper. Same applies for Cristiano Ronaldo. Amazing over a domestic season, but e.g. Figo was better on the international stage and in big CL games.

 

P.S. bit of a coincidence that both Messi and Ronaldo flop at international level, and even in the latter stages of the CL against top defenses? Ronaldo has flopped alot more, including in the CL where he's been majorly disappointing far more often than not in the knockout stages. They're ridiculous goalscoring players but neither are anything like as well rounded as some of the other legends they're being compared to. IMO anyway.

 

Messi that scored in both Champions League finals and was Man of the Match in both? He's undoubtedly a big game player as well. I've listed the finals that he's scored in. I dunno, it just seems like everyone's suddenly forgotten because of the World Cup Final. It's honestly on the level of being 'if you don't think he's the best you've ever seen (unless you've seen Pele or Maradona) then you're either being a contrarian, or you know nothing about football.' It's on that level of pig-headed arrogance about it. To me suggesting otherwise is totally insane.

 

Scored in those finals (one a header from a cross after being out of the game for most of the match, and the other a frustrated shot straight down the middle that should have been saved by an aging keeper who retried straight after), yes, but in both games against ManU he was ultimately kept very quiet. I'm going by what I've seen in those games - imo neither performance was good nor up to Messi's normal standards. He played no better than e.g. David Villa or Pedro, who also scored in those finals iirc. I just wanted to see him have great games against the top sides when the pressure is high, not just be clamped down on and reduced to maybe scoring an unexpected goal to mask an average/poor performance - evidently that was an unrealistic expectation.

 

As an analogy for this point of view, Zidane's 98 World Cup final goals, and his volley (probably one of the greatest volleys of all time behind van Basten's) against Leverkusen in the CL final, neither of them weigh all that heavily on how I rate him as a great, as imo in both games he was fairly poor/quiet overall. What I rate Zidane on is the numerous big games for club and country in crunch stages of the biggest competitions (CL, European Championships, World Cup) where he dominated games, pulled the strings, tore a quality team apart or damaged them psychologically by toying with them. E.g. Zidane over two legs vs one of the best ManU sides Alex Ferguson had in the 02/03 CL, he didn't score any goals and didn't get any assists (unless that pass to Figo counts as one), but he was phenomenal in those games, utterly untouchable, and was just as good against Juve in the semi's where his team got knocked out because they couldn't defend. The fact that he didn't score goals in these games, didn't win a trophy, didn't even get to the CL final that season, means little to me - he was utter class in the big games against top teams, and that's the baseline for me (performances over stats). I believe my views to be consistent in this regard. I think Zidane has had considerably better games in the biggest competitions against top calibre opposition than Messi in this regard, hence why I would hesitate to say Messi was definitely better - it depends on context/scenario for me.

Good post.

[Flip]

FWIW KI, I meant his peak in a performance and not over a season or so. Should've made that clearer, I still believe that those two players could change games same way as Messi in inferior teams. I certainly believe Messi to be the best player I've seen though, just because of his ability to maintain a standard for so so many years.

 

Did you not say that Zidane and Ronaldo at their peak (whether that be in one match, one month, one season or whatever) were comparable to Messi? And in Zidane's case arguably better?

 

I find that honestly ridiculous, tbf. I'd say Ronaldo before he f***ed his knee is the only one anywhere near Messi at his peak.

 

It's really not ridiculous, I'm clearly not the only one who has that opinion.

 

I know that it's still always going to come down to opinion, but the sheer volume of people claiming that he's the best they've ever seen (who have seen or played with or against Pele, Maradona etc) is really impressive.

 

http://proudbarcelonista.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/quotes-about-lionel-messi/

 

I'm definitely not debating whether he's the best I've seen, I've clearly said that multiple of times and I find it difficult to argue against. But to put that link ias an argument is ridiculous, I've seen the same for Pele. Even if many didn't see Messi play these are some quotes which explains Pele's ability:

 

"I told myself before the game, 'he's made of skin and bones just like everyone else'. But I was wrong.”

Tarcisio Burgnich, the Italy defender who marked Pele in the Mexico 1970 Final

 

“The greatest player in history was Di Stefano. I refuse to classify Pele as a player. He was above that.”

Ferenc Puskas

 

“Pele was the only footballer who surpassed the boundaries of logic.”

Johan Cruyff

 

"Pele is the greatest player of all time. He reigned supreme for 20 years. All the others - Diego Maradona, Johan Cruyff, Michel Platini - rank beneath him. There's no one to compare with Pele."

Franz Beckenbauer

 

"The best player ever? Pele. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are both great players with specific qualities, but Pele was better."

Alfredo di Stefano

 

"The best of all was Pele, who is a mixture of Di Stefano, Maradona, Cruyff and Leo Messi."

Cesar Luis Menotti

 

 

[Guest firetotheworks]

That's fair enough Flip, but all of those players aren't from my lifetime. If I'd seen Di Stefano, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc then I could include them, but from watching football from roughly 1990 ( I was only 6, so my opinion until about 1994 isn't worth much) Messi is comfortably the best player in that time.

[Flip]

That's fair enough Flip, but all of those players aren't from my lifetime. If I'd seen Di Stefano, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc then I could include them, but from watching football from roughly 1990 ( I was only 6, so my opinion until about 1994 isn't worth much) Messi is comfortably the best player in that time.

 

Again I agree with that sentiment, just felt like you were trying to prove that he's the best ever by those quotes. My bad. The thing with why I think Zidane arguably had a better peak is that he could change a game everywhere on the pitch, Messi can change it offensively and but still relies on the others to be good in his team. Zidane if his team was up had the ability to make the ball disappear for the rest of the game, he could affect a football game in so many ways more than Messi. One of his last games is one of the best performances I've seen in my lifetimes. What he did against Brazil in 2006 is a masterclass lesson. It was an unbelievable performance at the biggest stage against the most talked team of the moment and he just absolutely ripped apart that team.

[Guest firetotheworks]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

 

"Best" is ambiguous/subjective though. Best:

 

- Over the course of an entire season at club level? Definitely. Greatest player ever for me in that context.

- Best in the big games? Not by a long shot. I've always felt Messi was thoroughly disappointing at CL/interinational level against quality/on form defenses. Inter over two legs, Chelsea over four, even the 2 CL finals against ManU where he was ultimately quiet/poor imo. Athletico Madrid in the CL this year. 2010 World Cup when Maradona was blamed, 2014 World Cup when the World Cup was blamed.

- Best at international level? Nowhere near.

 

I'd take Messi over anyone else if you wanted to win a domestic league. Knockouts of the CL and World Cup, I'd much rather have someone who has proven they can pull the strings in big games when the attention will be on them, rather than someone who goes out without a whimper. Same applies for Cristiano Ronaldo. Amazing over a domestic season, but e.g. Figo was better on the international stage and in big CL games.

 

P.S. bit of a coincidence that both Messi and Ronaldo flop at international level, and even in the latter stages of the CL against top defenses? Ronaldo has flopped alot more, including in the CL where he's been majorly disappointing far more often than not in the knockout stages. They're ridiculous goalscoring players but neither are anything like as well rounded as some of the other legends they're being compared to. IMO anyway.

 

Messi that scored in both Champions League finals and was Man of the Match in both? He's undoubtedly a big game player as well. I've listed the finals that he's scored in. I dunno, it just seems like everyone's suddenly forgotten because of the World Cup Final. It's honestly on the level of being 'if you don't think he's the best you've ever seen (unless you've seen Pele or Maradona) then you're either being a contrarian, or you know nothing about football.' It's on that level of pig-headed arrogance about it. To me suggesting otherwise is totally insane.

 

Scored in those finals (one a header from a cross after being out of the game for most of the match, and the other a frustrated shot straight down the middle that should have been saved by an aging keeper who retried straight after), yes, but in both games against ManU he was ultimately kept very quiet. I'm going by what I've seen in those games - imo neither performance was good nor up to Messi's normal standards. He played no better than e.g. David Villa or Pedro, who also scored in those finals iirc. I just wanted to see him have great games against the top sides when the pressure is high, not just be clamped down on and reduced to maybe scoring an unexpected goal to mask an average/poor performance - evidently that was an unrealistic expectation.

 

As an analogy for this point of view, Zidane's 98 World Cup final goals, and his volley (probably one of the greatest volleys of all time behind van Basten's) against Leverkusen in the CL final, neither of them weigh all that heavily on how I rate him as a great, as imo in both games he was fairly poor/quiet overall. What I rate Zidane on is the numerous big games for club and country in crunch stages of the biggest competitions (CL, European Championships, World Cup) where he dominated games, pulled the strings, tore a quality team apart or damaged them psychologically by toying with them. E.g. Zidane over two legs vs one of the best ManU sides Alex Ferguson had in the 02/03 CL, he didn't score any goals and didn't get any assists (unless that pass to Figo counts as one), but he was phenomenal in those games, utterly untouchable, and was just as good against Juve in the semi's where his team got knocked out because they couldn't defend. The fact that he didn't score goals in these games, didn't win a trophy, didn't even get to the CL final that season, means little to me - he was utter class in the big games against top teams, and that's the baseline for me (performances over stats). I believe my views to be consistent in this regard. I think Zidane has had considerably better games in the biggest competitions against top calibre opposition than Messi in this regard, hence why I would hesitate to say Messi was definitely better - it depends on context/scenario for me.

 

I would suggest that you watch those Champions League Finals again. He was Man of the Match in both (although I would have had Iniesta as MOTM in the first one)

 

I honestly find this whole 'not a big game player' thing a joke. It's difficult to try and explain because it just seems so absurd if you've watched those matches and watched him terrorise teams in them.

[Froggy]

Scholes > Messi.

[Disco]

Being a good WUM>Being a shit WUM

[Guest firetotheworks]

Scholes > Messi.

 

Messi (the poster) > Froggy

 

 

 

Aye, take THAT!

[alpal78]

 

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

 

"Best" is ambiguous/subjective though. Best:

 

- Over the course of an entire season at club level? Definitely. Greatest player ever for me in that context.

- Best in the big games? Not by a long shot. I've always felt Messi was thoroughly disappointing at CL/interinational level against quality/on form defenses. Inter over two legs, Chelsea over four, even the 2 CL finals against ManU where he was ultimately quiet/poor imo. Athletico Madrid in the CL this year. 2010 World Cup when Maradona was blamed, 2014 World Cup when the World Cup was blamed.

- Best at international level? Nowhere near.

 

I'd take Messi over anyone else if you wanted to win a domestic league. Knockouts of the CL and World Cup, I'd much rather have someone who has proven they can pull the strings in big games when the attention will be on them, rather than someone who goes out without a whimper. Same applies for Cristiano Ronaldo. Amazing over a domestic season, but e.g. Figo was better on the international stage and in big CL games.

 

P.S. bit of a coincidence that both Messi and Ronaldo flop at international level, and even in the latter stages of the CL against top defenses? Ronaldo has flopped alot more, including in the CL where he's been majorly disappointing far more often than not in the knockout stages. They're ridiculous goalscoring players but neither are anything like as well rounded as some of the other legends they're being compared to. IMO anyway.

 

Messi that scored in both Champions League finals and was Man of the Match in both? He's undoubtedly a big game player as well. I've listed the finals that he's scored in. I dunno, it just seems like everyone's suddenly forgotten because of the World Cup Final. It's honestly on the level of being 'if you don't think he's the best you've ever seen (unless you've seen Pele or Maradona) then you're either being a contrarian, or you know nothing about football.' It's on that level of pig-headed arrogance about it. To me suggesting otherwise is totally insane.

 

Scored in those finals (one a header from a cross after being out of the game for most of the match, and the other a frustrated shot straight down the middle that should have been saved by an aging keeper who retried straight after), yes, but in both games against ManU he was ultimately kept very quiet. I'm going by what I've seen in those games - imo neither performance was good nor up to Messi's normal standards. He played no better than e.g. David Villa or Pedro, who also scored in those finals iirc. I just wanted to see him have great games against the top sides when the pressure is high, not just be clamped down on and reduced to maybe scoring an unexpected goal to mask an average/poor performance - evidently that was an unrealistic expectation.

 

As an analogy for this point of view, Zidane's 98 World Cup final goals, and his volley (probably one of the greatest volleys of all time behind van Basten's) against Leverkusen in the CL final, neither of them weigh all that heavily on how I rate him as a great, as imo in both games he was fairly poor/quiet overall. What I rate Zidane on is the numerous big games for club and country in crunch stages of the biggest competitions (CL, European Championships, World Cup) where he dominated games, pulled the strings, tore a quality team apart or damaged them psychologically by toying with them. E.g. Zidane over two legs vs one of the best ManU sides Alex Ferguson had in the 02/03 CL, he didn't score any goals and didn't get any assists (unless that pass to Figo counts as one), but he was phenomenal in those games, utterly untouchable, and was just as good against Juve in the semi's where his team got knocked out because they couldn't defend. The fact that he didn't score goals in these games, didn't win a trophy, didn't even get to the CL final that season, means little to me - he was utter class in the big games against top teams, and that's the baseline for me (performances over stats). I believe my views to be consistent in this regard. I think Zidane has had considerably better games in the biggest competitions against top calibre opposition than Messi in this regard, hence why I would hesitate to say Messi was definitely better - it depends on context/scenario for me.

 

I would suggest that you watch those Champions League Finals again. He was Man of the Match in both (although I would have had Iniesta as MOTM in the first one)

 

I honestly find this whole 'not a big game player' thing a joke. It's difficult to try and explain because it just seems so absurd if you've watched those matches and watched him terrorise teams in them.

 

Man of the match awards are mostly useless, often given based on reputation. Messi didn't deserve those awards just like he didn't deserve the Golden Ball award for the World Cup. I would suggest you watch the France Vs Brazil 2006 game again to understand what greatness means.

[Guest firetotheworks]

 

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

 

"Best" is ambiguous/subjective though. Best:

 

- Over the course of an entire season at club level? Definitely. Greatest player ever for me in that context.

- Best in the big games? Not by a long shot. I've always felt Messi was thoroughly disappointing at CL/interinational level against quality/on form defenses. Inter over two legs, Chelsea over four, even the 2 CL finals against ManU where he was ultimately quiet/poor imo. Athletico Madrid in the CL this year. 2010 World Cup when Maradona was blamed, 2014 World Cup when the World Cup was blamed.

- Best at international level? Nowhere near.

 

I'd take Messi over anyone else if you wanted to win a domestic league. Knockouts of the CL and World Cup, I'd much rather have someone who has proven they can pull the strings in big games when the attention will be on them, rather than someone who goes out without a whimper. Same applies for Cristiano Ronaldo. Amazing over a domestic season, but e.g. Figo was better on the international stage and in big CL games.

 

P.S. bit of a coincidence that both Messi and Ronaldo flop at international level, and even in the latter stages of the CL against top defenses? Ronaldo has flopped alot more, including in the CL where he's been majorly disappointing far more often than not in the knockout stages. They're ridiculous goalscoring players but neither are anything like as well rounded as some of the other legends they're being compared to. IMO anyway.

 

Messi that scored in both Champions League finals and was Man of the Match in both? He's undoubtedly a big game player as well. I've listed the finals that he's scored in. I dunno, it just seems like everyone's suddenly forgotten because of the World Cup Final. It's honestly on the level of being 'if you don't think he's the best you've ever seen (unless you've seen Pele or Maradona) then you're either being a contrarian, or you know nothing about football.' It's on that level of pig-headed arrogance about it. To me suggesting otherwise is totally insane.

 

Scored in those finals (one a header from a cross after being out of the game for most of the match, and the other a frustrated shot straight down the middle that should have been saved by an aging keeper who retried straight after), yes, but in both games against ManU he was ultimately kept very quiet. I'm going by what I've seen in those games - imo neither performance was good nor up to Messi's normal standards. He played no better than e.g. David Villa or Pedro, who also scored in those finals iirc. I just wanted to see him have great games against the top sides when the pressure is high, not just be clamped down on and reduced to maybe scoring an unexpected goal to mask an average/poor performance - evidently that was an unrealistic expectation.

 

As an analogy for this point of view, Zidane's 98 World Cup final goals, and his volley (probably one of the greatest volleys of all time behind van Basten's) against Leverkusen in the CL final, neither of them weigh all that heavily on how I rate him as a great, as imo in both games he was fairly poor/quiet overall. What I rate Zidane on is the numerous big games for club and country in crunch stages of the biggest competitions (CL, European Championships, World Cup) where he dominated games, pulled the strings, tore a quality team apart or damaged them psychologically by toying with them. E.g. Zidane over two legs vs one of the best ManU sides Alex Ferguson had in the 02/03 CL, he didn't score any goals and didn't get any assists (unless that pass to Figo counts as one), but he was phenomenal in those games, utterly untouchable, and was just as good against Juve in the semi's where his team got knocked out because they couldn't defend. The fact that he didn't score goals in these games, didn't win a trophy, didn't even get to the CL final that season, means little to me - he was utter class in the big games against top teams, and that's the baseline for me (performances over stats). I believe my views to be consistent in this regard. I think Zidane has had considerably better games in the biggest competitions against top calibre opposition than Messi in this regard, hence why I would hesitate to say Messi was definitely better - it depends on context/scenario for me.

 

I would suggest that you watch those Champions League Finals again. He was Man of the Match in both (although I would have had Iniesta as MOTM in the first one)

 

I honestly find this whole 'not a big game player' thing a joke. It's difficult to try and explain because it just seems so absurd if you've watched those matches and watched him terrorise teams in them.

 

Man of the match awards are mostly useless, often given based on reputation. Messi didn't deserve those awards just like he didn't deserve the Golden Ball award for the World Cup. I would suggest you watch the France Vs Brazil 2006 game again to understand what greatness means.

 

 

They do also tend to give an indication of how a player has performed in a match, as do goals, as do assists. Honestly man, this is laughable. You've all forgotten who he is and seem to have elevated Zidane onto a pedastal that there's no need to put him on. Zidane was a great, great player. One of the best I've ever seen, but he's no Messi. Watch a full season of Messi from 2008-2013 and 9 times out of 10 you'll see a performance on the same level as that Zidane vs Brazil match, quite regularly against Real Madrid or Man United or any other team that he faced in the Champions League. Messi was great in both Champions League finals, suggesting otherwise when he got a goal in both and an assist as well in the second is just laughable man, the bloke scored a fucking header against a partnership of Ferdinand and Vidic and he's like 5ft 7ins

 

You people!

[Guest firetotheworks]

Fwiw, if your measure of greatness is a player 'controlling a game' then that's Xavi's role anyway.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

RE Zidane

 

A friend of mine is a Man Utd fan, a genuine Manc by the way, and we always talk football. Of all the Man Utd players he has seen he rates Cantona as the greatest player. Greater than Rooney, greater than Ronaldo, Giggs, Keane... all of their modern greats. His reason? Because he carried them, because he made others better players and because when it come to performing he performed. He wasn't as prolific as Ronaldo or as consistent as say Scholes nor as quick as Giggs or as strong as Rooney. But to my mate, he was great because he won them key games and key battles and transformed them whenever he played or was in the mood. He was also different.

 

The point I'm trying to make? There have been more consistent players than Zidane, more successful players, more prolific and more all-rounded, but none as great as him when it come to performing, certainly not of all the players I've seen. IMO of course.

 

Messi is better, but not greater if that makes sense. That's why Pele and Cruyf and Best and Maradona et al are always talked about as the greatest, not because of what they necessarily won or how many goals they scored but because of the way they performed and how.

 

Zidane against Brazil... he literally took the piss on a stage that had Ronaldo, Kaka and Ronaldinho and he did it without breaking sweat. I love watching Messi and all things considered he will go down as being greater than the likes of Zidane etc., but not for me.

 

I could watch Zidane all day, he was a sublime footballer.

[Mr. Snrub]

I just wanted to see him have great games against the top sides when the pressure is high, not just be clamped down on and reduced to maybe scoring an unexpected goal to mask an average/poor performance - evidently that was an unrealistic expectation.

 

Then watch the semi final at the Bernebau where he single handedly dismantled Madrid if you don't think he was MotM against Man Utd in the final.  (Which anyone with half a brain can see that he clearly was.)

 

P.S - He has the most goals in the history of El Clasico.  The biggest game in domestic world football.

[Ronaldo]

HTT, was Zidane better than Amdy Faye?

[Guest Howaythetoon]

HTT, was Zidane better than Amdy Faye?

 

Just, but not on the level of Collins John or Dean Ashton.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

RE the WC argument thing, it isn't the highest quality competition in the world, that belongs to the CL, but it is the toughest competition to excel in and achieve.

 

You literally have only 3 games at the least, 7 at the most and then there is the pressure. It is extremely tough for any player and therefore arguably the biggest litmus test of them all.

 

Zidane, Maradona, Ronaldo, Ronalidinho, Pele et al have all excelled and or achieved at this level in one way or another. Messi hasn't despite his 4 goals and Golden Ball award.

 

He has flattered to deceive and hasn't quite excelled in any game really. At this level, i.e. the WC, he has been disappointing and that has to go against him, unfortunately.

 

Anyway, we could argue til the cow comes home as to who is the greatest or the best. But really, it is all subjective and there is no definitive greatest or best. Although there is definitely a league if you like and Messi is CL at worst, title contender at best, easily.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I thought the whole leadership thing was quite well put by a journalist who said that in terms of charisma, comparing Maradona and Messi is like comparing Hendrix and Kraftwerk.

 

Nolan was a very good leader but a poor midfielder imo

Cabaye was a very good midfielder but a poor leader imo

 

I'd go as far to say that the gap in football ability between Messi and Zidane is great enough to negate the need for the supposed need for a vocal player.