Flip Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 If we sold Cisse for £20m-£25m then I think the majority of that money will be used to bring Carroll in and we will get 1-2 cheap options up front. If we don't sell him I can see us bringing Carroll in in anyway and at least 1 young cheap option. I'd rather not sell Cisse just so Ashley doesn't have to re-invest much money. Cisse's main problems this season has been not enough support/service, and playing out of position. Getting him a partner would solve that and we will start to see the Cisse we saw last year. If we sell Cisse in order to bring back Carroll I will be absolutely murdering people on this forum if Carroll flops. College Dropuout and Cronky will be high up on the list closely followed by TT and Unbelievable. In all honesty I Couldn't see Carroll struggling to get around 8 league goals for us, even with his injuries. I'd imagine he'd do a lot more for his team as well, not just assists (hanz) TBF he's only gotten more than 8 goals in the PL in a season once in his career that Andy lad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 He started out wide four times, once after Ba had been sold. Dunno exactly how many times he ended up wide through shuffles of the side mid-match, but generally speaking it was indeed a handful of matches at most and has been massively overstated. For the vast majority of the season he was either up front alongside Ba in a 4-4-2 (which generated much derision on here) or on his own in a 4-2-3-1 after Ba left. Whatever the stats maybe he certainly wasn't playing in his preferred position until Ba left - which was really the point I was trying to get across. The service to him after that was poor at best hence why 'imo' he did brilliant to score the goals he did. the servive he got wasn't great but he did miss a good few chances that most premier league forwards would've put away. Which premier league forwards? shane long,steven fletcher, etc. cisses service wasn't great but the chances he got were often very good and imo other forwards would have made better from them. i want to keep him, i think last season was a one off for him (shows how much he's a confidence player) but i'm not going to lie about the chances he missed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I love the idea that Carroll will suddenly come in and become Mara-f***ing-dona and score 30 goals for us, all by himself, launching himself at every Williamson Hollywood pass, controlling it with his ponytail and bicycle-kicking every goal into the top corner. WTF are some people on here thinking. Cisse is in a different league (better league) compared to Carroll, who will regress our team play even further under the donkey of a manager we have. I think it's pretty obvious that under this manager and with the failings of the current playing staff, Carroll would be an excellent addition for the right price. He'd solve a number of huge problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 He started out wide four times, once after Ba had been sold. Dunno exactly how many times he ended up wide through shuffles of the side mid-match, but generally speaking it was indeed a handful of matches at most and has been massively overstated. For the vast majority of the season he was either up front alongside Ba in a 4-4-2 (which generated much derision on here) or on his own in a 4-2-3-1 after Ba left. Whatever the stats maybe he certainly wasn't playing in his preferred position until Ba left - which was really the point I was trying to get across. The service to him after that was poor at best hence why 'imo' he did brilliant to score the goals he did. the servive he got wasn't great but he did miss a good few chances that most premier league forwards would've put away. Which premier league forwards? shane long,steven fletcher, etc. cisses service wasn't great but the chances he got were often very good and imo other forwards would have made better from them. Fair enough, but he didn't get the same consistency in terms of playing style and position as those guys in many ways, also he scored like a billion goals that weren't counted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 He started out wide four times, once after Ba had been sold. Dunno exactly how many times he ended up wide through shuffles of the side mid-match, but generally speaking it was indeed a handful of matches at most and has been massively overstated. For the vast majority of the season he was either up front alongside Ba in a 4-4-2 (which generated much derision on here) or on his own in a 4-2-3-1 after Ba left. Whatever the stats maybe he certainly wasn't playing in his preferred position until Ba left - which was really the point I was trying to get across. The service to him after that was poor at best hence why 'imo' he did brilliant to score the goals he did. the servive he got wasn't great but he did miss a good few chances that most premier league forwards would've put away. Which premier league forwards? shane long,steven fletcher, etc. cisses service wasn't great but the chances he got were often very good and imo other forwards would have made better from them. Fair enough, but he didn't get the same consistency in terms of playing style and position as those guys in many ways, also he scored like a billion goals that weren't counted. How do you work that out? He played approximately half the season alongside Ba, and half the season up front on his own. Barely missed a game (fortunately). Made 47 appearances. He's a striker; for the vast majority of the season he played as one. I have plenty of faith in him coming good again and in many games the service up to him was laughable, but he had a very poor season individually and the stuff about his playing position has been overstated to a ridiculous degree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 He started out wide four times, once after Ba had been sold. Dunno exactly how many times he ended up wide through shuffles of the side mid-match, but generally speaking it was indeed a handful of matches at most and has been massively overstated. For the vast majority of the season he was either up front alongside Ba in a 4-4-2 (which generated much derision on here) or on his own in a 4-2-3-1 after Ba left. Whatever the stats maybe he certainly wasn't playing in his preferred position until Ba left - which was really the point I was trying to get across. The service to him after that was poor at best hence why 'imo' he did brilliant to score the goals he did. the servive he got wasn't great but he did miss a good few chances that most premier league forwards would've put away. Which premier league forwards? shane long,steven fletcher, etc. cisses service wasn't great but the chances he got were often very good and imo other forwards would have made better from them. Fair enough, but he didn't get the same consistency in terms of playing style and position as those guys in many ways, also he scored like a billion goals that weren't counted. How do you work that out? He played approximately half the season alongside Ba, and half the season up front on his own. Barely missed a game (fortunately). Made 47 appearances. He's a striker; for the vast majority of the season he played as one. I have plenty of faith in him coming good again and in many games the service up to him was laughable, but he had a very poor season individually and the stuff about his playing position has been overstated to a ridiculous degree. Because for the first half of the season he was switched constantly during games between right wing and as the central striker with Ba. He wasn't the main man as the Fletcher was at Sunderland, he might not have started many games officially on the right, but he played a lot of match time drifting out wide and helping out defensively which other strikers in this league would never do, or any league for that matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I just don't think that it justifies the chances he's fucked up this season. The offsides have become a joke, sometimes it's just unfortunate but most of the time it's as though he genuinely doesn't know the rules. He's a £9m centre forward who has scored goals for years. No amount of helping out in stupid positions should force him to make wrong decision after wrong decision in front of goal. I remember when Ba went, those who were in favour of getting him out were utterly convinced that Cisse would suddenly start banging them in again. His position was the only problem and as soon as he went back up front full time he'd be fine. Well I'm sorry but he didn't. As I said, I'm not particularly worried about Cisse because he's got all the right qualities including a great attitude. I certainly wouldn't sell him. But absolving him for last season is totally wrong IMO, he had a shocker. Pardew () needs to get him going again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I just don't think that it justifies the chances he's f***ed up this season. The offsides have become a joke, sometimes it's just unfortunate but most of the time it's as though he genuinely doesn't know the rules. He's a £9m centre forward who has scored goals for years. No amount of helping out in stupid positions should force him to make wrong decision after wrong decision in front of goal. I remember when Ba went, those who were in favour of getting him out were utterly convinced that Cisse would suddenly start banging them in again. His position was the only problem and as soon as he went back up front full time he'd be fine. Well I'm sorry but he didn't. As I said, I'm not particularly worried about Cisse because he's got all the right qualities including a great attitude. I certainly wouldn't sell him. But absolving him for last season is totally wrong IMO, he had a shocker. Pardew () needs to get him going again. Absolutely, wasn't really justifying him missing loads of chances, what I'm saying is a lot of people are harsh on him as he is obviously better as a poacher in many ways but worked almost harder than any one else in the team this season even if the goals didn't come. He lacks some brain, and I do believe £20-25m would be an extremely good deal for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I'm still dying to know how much finishing and shooting practise we do, as well as coaching Cisse to try and stay onside. If we do any, I'd be extremely surprised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I'm still dying to know how much finishing and shooting practise we do, as well as coaching Cisse to try and stay onside. If we do any, I'd be extremely surprised. think of that generally, how many cases can you name in the last 2 years where a player has a certain flaw and we've obviously improved it (or even a certain aspect of our play)? e.g.: problem - ba & cisse unable to form a partnership problem - cisse can't stay onside problem - williamson & simpson very poor on the ball and only able to hoof it out of defence a lot of the time problem - tiote getting cards every match for reckless challenges problem - tiote's passing and generally thinking he's eusebio problem - cabaye playing too deep all the time problem - chronic lack of movement within the side as a whole there are countless more and we've improved none Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Haris Vuckic Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I'm still dying to know how much finishing and shooting practise we do, as well as coaching Cisse to try and stay onside. If we do any, I'd be extremely surprised. It's as easy as that coaching football mate. Right lads kick towards the goal! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 We've had players prone to fairly frequent daft offsides in the past though. Even Bellamy & Martins under Robson & Keegan were poor for that. Not sure if that's something you can necessarily teach a player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STM Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 He's another one who i put in the category of players that have got worse because of Pardews tactics. Defenders look poor when a team is constantly under pressure. Where as strikers look worse when they are getting little service. When service is poor, forwards stop running because it affects their confidence and belief. To be fair to Cisse he always looks for a give and go but he's playing in a poor side. When he has had a chance, hes often snatched at it but thats down to confidence IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I just don't think that it justifies the chances he's fucked up this season. The offsides have become a joke, sometimes it's just unfortunate but most of the time it's as though he genuinely doesn't know the rules. He's a £9m centre forward who has scored goals for years. No amount of helping out in stupid positions should force him to make wrong decision after wrong decision in front of goal. I remember when Ba went, those who were in favour of getting him out were utterly convinced that Cisse would suddenly start banging them in again. His position was the only problem and as soon as he went back up front full time he'd be fine. Well I'm sorry but he didn't. As I said, I'm not particularly worried about Cisse because he's got all the right qualities including a great attitude. I certainly wouldn't sell him. But absolving him for last season is totally wrong IMO, he had a shocker. Pardew () needs to get him going again. Exactly this. I like the bloke a lot and don't want him to leave but some of the excuses he has been afforded this season It doesn't help that I loved Ba so him getting the blame for Cisse's performances (the greedy bastard not only taking too many chances but the blame as well!) Hopefully next season we have a team who creates more chances and supports him a hell of a lot more, he also needs to play his part as he has had a bit of a shocker at times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 How many goals did he score including the ones that were wrongly not given/disallowed? I can think of an extra 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 He has undoubted quality; yet he has apparent limitations. It's the managements fault that the former can't emerge over the latter. Selling him would be folly right now without others coming in first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 He has undoubted quality; yet he has apparent limitations. It's the managements fault that the former can't emerge over the latter. Selling him would be folly right now without others coming in first. how come, if he's a goal every other game striker and he starts missing relatively easy chances surely thats his fault. isn't the sign of a decent striker that if one decent chance comes their way per game they take it ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taps01 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Im sure it's already been said but he isn't someone we should be selling. He is the one natural goal scoring player we have and looking at how long it took to replace our last number nine selling him would be nothing short of a disaster! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Im sure it's already been said but he isn't someone we should be selling. He is the one natural goal scoring player we have and looking at how long it took to replace our last number nine selling him would be nothing short of a disaster! natural goalscoring ? aye but at present he's the one player we have who's natural inclination is to look to get on the end of something in the box, hence the attempts to buy de jong, remy, PEA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Go through any strikers season and they'll miss good chances, if I looked through Van Persie's then I'm sure he'll have squandered 5 good ones at least. Cisse's service has been hugely erratic and it's hardly inconceivable to suggest that perhaps he was snatching at opportunities because he was spending sizeable periods of the season getting absolutely nothing. Our manager's management of him pre-Christmas must have done nothing for his confidence either. I remember when Ba went, those who were in favour of getting him out were utterly convinced that Cisse would suddenly start banging them in again. Weren't you one of them? I'm pretty sure you were confidently stating as soon as Ba left that Cisse would be fine and you had no worries whatsoever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taps01 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Im sure it's already been said but he isn't someone we should be selling. He is the one natural goal scoring player we have and looking at how long it took to replace our last number nine selling him would be nothing short of a disaster! natural goalscoring ? aye but at present he's the one player we have who's natural inclination is to look to get on the end of something in the box, hence the attempts to buy de jong, remy, PEA. You know what I mean. Personally I'd like to see us go back in for Remy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 He has undoubted quality; yet he has apparent limitations. It's the managements fault that the former can't emerge over the latter. Selling him would be folly right now without others coming in first. how come, if he's a goal every other game striker and he starts missing relatively easy chances surely thats his fault. isn't the sign of a decent striker that if one decent chance comes their way per game they take it ? Limitations covers that but played the right way in the right system and you maximise what he does have to offer. That was the top and bottom of what I was trying to say. He's not world class or anywhere near because of his limits but play him the right way with the right way and I've no doubt he'll get the return we've seen him display before. Everyone of our team is inhibited in some way by the way we play and he is, to the most stark of contrasts, no exception. That doesn't mean they are exempt from blame but I don't think they are helped by the influences of those responsible for the entirety of the team. He has to stay imo anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Go through any strikers season and they'll miss good chances, if I looked through Van Persie's then I'm sure he'll have squandered 5 good ones at least. Cisse's service has been hugely erratic and it's hardly inconceivable to suggest that perhaps he was snatching at opportunities because he was spending sizeable periods of the season getting absolutely nothing. Our manager's management of him pre-Christmas must have done nothing for his confidence either. I remember when Ba went, those who were in favour of getting him out were utterly convinced that Cisse would suddenly start banging them in again. Weren't you one of them? I'm pretty sure you were confidently stating as soon as Ba left that Cisse would be fine and you had no worries whatsoever. Complete opposite, I didn't want Ba to be sold at all and that was why. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I think I assumed our style of generating chances might adapt to no longer having a striker who could score from balls over the top how wrong I was Imagine Pardew at Barcalona, HOOF THE BALL TO MESSI Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Go through any strikers season and they'll miss good chances, if I looked through Van Persie's then I'm sure he'll have squandered 5 good ones at least. Cisse's service has been hugely erratic and it's hardly inconceivable to suggest that perhaps he was snatching at opportunities because he was spending sizeable periods of the season getting absolutely nothing. Our manager's management of him pre-Christmas must have done nothing for his confidence either. I remember when Ba went, those who were in favour of getting him out were utterly convinced that Cisse would suddenly start banging them in again. Weren't you one of them? I'm pretty sure you were confidently stating as soon as Ba left that Cisse would be fine and you had no worries whatsoever. Complete opposite, I didn't want Ba to be sold at all and that was why. Not worried about Cisse at all. He'll score plenty of goals in this side. Fair enough, you didn't want Ba sold but you can't criticise anyone else for being confident that Cisse would start scoring again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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