Guest bimpy474 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 2011/12 Blackburn (h) 3-1 - Comfy as. Stoke (a) 3-1 Very tough fixture, remarkable display. Bit nervy, but good comfort after we notched our third. Man Utd (h) 3-0 We obviously didn't control the game, but we executed a game plan and contained them with reasonable comfort. West Brom (a) 3-1 Weathered an early spell of pressure admirably, then HBADembaDemba destroyed them. Liverpool (h) 2-0 Not easy tbh, barely made this list, but does - just. Stoke (h) 3-0 Glorious 2012/13 Erm... That's my recollection (cobbled together very hurriedly!) of good performances from last season where I thought we looked fluent and comfy for more or less 90 minutes. Six out of 48-odd Premiership games suggests our rut is more or less the norm. I realise you may wish to include victories away to Swansea, maybe at home to Bolton etc - but not for me. you can at least rub out one from that list, the away win vs Stroke was a win but a shocking one, at the time i enjoyed it because any win vs Pulis the turd is a great one, but damn did we stink it up, we smashed them at their own game using their towels to dry the ball and launch with throwings and long balls all night long. Don't want to see too many of those games tbh. I know if a neutral was watching it, they wouldnt had got an jollies from that game. Stoke away was brilliant man, watching Pulis doing his nut as Simpson dried the ball was outstanding. Seeing the ref say to him, "well you do it". The very reason Stoke now have the towelling sewn into shirt of their long throwers, we caused that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Its not just us under performing, other teams have figured us out a bit too. Man Utd playing a narrow diamond was just one example. That and hoy it football may keep you up, but you go anywhere near the top with it. Last year we did but in no way was that just hoy it football, we mixed it up better. This season has been just smash it forward. Revolting, horrible to watch and not football imo. my biggest concern now is not that the opposition has found Pardew out, im just really really worried that its our own players now that have found him out. From what the players are still saying i think he's ok with them, but if we keep losing i dont think that'll stay the case. I know its a broken record now but using 4-4-2 and hoy it footy with the players we have is not good, but more importantly the teams we are playing have figured that out and are just countering it. That and as Wullie was saying, why stop using such a good tactic such as the 4-3-3 (worked for us anyhoo), when it quite plainly gets the best out of more players than 4-4-2 does. Baffling decision like. because 4-3-3 wouldn't work either. It worked over a handful of games towards the end of a season vs teams that had nothing left to play for. People forget that. We also tried 4-3-3/4-5-1 atleast once this season, the most memorable was the first half vs Everton when we got virtually bent over and taken to task. Switched back to 4-4-2 second half. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikon Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Why, God! Why do we hit the hoof ball to Ba/Cisse over and over and over again for them to challenge the CB's in a heading duel? We even do this while under no pressure at all. 9 times out of ten they wont win it anyway, and still in the same game we do it again, fucking hell, mind as well hand over the ball on a silver plate to give the opposition possession again. This is just one of many problems, but even a blind clueless man would do something about it. No fucking wonder we invite pressure. Sorry, but im tired and hungry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I thought Stoke and Swansea were two fantastic performances, executed to perfection tactically. Don't really give a shit about whether it's good to watch for a neutral, that's not what I'm interested in. Apart from that I'd go along with Beren's list. We served up far more atrocious performances than we did really good ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest icemanblue Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Why, God! Why do we hit the hoof ball to Ba/Cisse over and over and over again for them to challenge the CB's in a heading duel? We even do this while under no pressure at all. 9 times out of ten they wont win it anyway, and still in the same game we do it again, f***ing hell, mind as well hand over the ball on a silver plate to give the opposition possession again. This is just one of many problems, but even a blind clueless man would do something about it. No f***ing wonder we invite pressure. Sorry, but im tired and hungry. because the players have been indoctrinated , its the only way they can play effectively. like brainwashed by Pardew. when we try to pass it around they play even worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Its not just us under performing, other teams have figured us out a bit too. Man Utd playing a narrow diamond was just one example. That and hoy it football may keep you up, but you go anywhere near the top with it. Last year we did but in no way was that just hoy it football, we mixed it up better. This season has been just smash it forward. Revolting, horrible to watch and not football imo. my biggest concern now is not that the opposition has found Pardew out, im just really really worried that its our own players now that have found him out. From what the players are still saying i think he's ok with them, but if we keep losing i dont think that'll stay the case. I know its a broken record now but using 4-4-2 and hoy it footy with the players we have is not good, but more importantly the teams we are playing have figured that out and are just countering it. That and as Wullie was saying, why stop using such a good tactic such as the 4-3-3 (worked for us anyhoo), when it quite plainly gets the best out of more players than 4-4-2 does. Baffling decision like. because 4-3-3 wouldn't work either. It worked over a handful of games towards the end of a season vs teams that had nothing left to play for. People forget that. We also tried 4-3-3/4-5-1 atleast once this season, the most memorable was the first half vs Everton when we got virtually bent over and taken to task. Switched back to 4-4-2 second half. Dont agree it worked against teams who had nothing to play for. As for the Everton game, 4-3-3 might have worked but if you are still hoying it in whatever formation, then of course it wont. I actually think that isn't as simple as just reverting to 4-3-3, it about the style and pattern of play, and our chronic lack of movement, also we must have the worst forwards in the premiership at holding the ball up, i'm including Demba in that too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikon Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 And even if they do win one in the air we have most of our own players in our own half anyway as they can't move forward that quickly, and seconds later we've lost it anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I thought Stoke and Swansea were two fantastic performances, executed to perfection tactically. Don't really give a s*** about whether it's good to watch for a neutral, that's not what I'm interested in. Apart from that I'd go along with Beren's list. We served up far more atrocious performances than we did really good ones. then you shouldnt have any complaints about Pardew. swansea game this season was a great example of when we didnt play enough turgid football and lost because of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 would be interesting to hear a radio phone in with him soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudil Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? It's a performance thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shush Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Anyone remember the collapse away at Fulham last season? Great first half then that awful second half. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 yep mentioned it a few post earlier we actually played 4-3-3/4-5-1 that game ironically, also remembered the collapse vs WBA and getting tonked by Wigan 4-0 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 throwing away 2 goals v wolves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shush Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 yep mentioned it a few post earlier we actually played 4-3-3/4-5-1 that game ironically, also remembered the collapse vs WBA and getting tonked by Wigan 4-0 That Wigan one was hard to take as we got raped. Was it Di Santo that scored that weird beast? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 2011/12 Blackburn (h) 3-1 - Comfy as. Stoke (a) 3-1 Very tough fixture, remarkable display. Bit nervy, but good comfort after we notched our third. Man Utd (h) 3-0 We obviously didn't control the game, but we executed a game plan and contained them with reasonable comfort. West Brom (a) 3-1 Weathered an early spell of pressure admirably, then HBADembaDemba destroyed them. Liverpool (h) 2-0 Not easy tbh, barely made this list, but does - just. Stoke (h) 3-0 Glorious 2012/13 Erm... That's my recollection (cobbled together very hurriedly!) of good performances from last season where I thought we looked fluent and comfy for more or less 90 minutes. Six out of 48-odd Premiership games suggests our rut is more or less the norm. I realise you may wish to include victories away to Swansea, maybe at home to Bolton etc - but not for me. Edit: Aston Villa (a) 1-1 too... still don't know how we only got a point from that. Well, I do actually, we had no attacking plan other than Raylor cutting in from the left and putting in the same ineffective ball Nonetheless, we bossed them and had them pinned in their half all game. It's revisionist history to be saying that "we were always like this." The tactical shape is the same, but what's different is that with a few exceptions, the individuals are massively out of form. Obviously there weren't a lot of games we "dominated" last year, but it's the norm for most games in any competitive league to be very close. If anything, six dominant results a season is a ridiculously high number for us. What we should be counting is the number of games in which we've looked utterly and completely inept. I think I can count the occasions last year on one hand. This year it's basically every week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Collapse against Fulham with Best on the left, Shola CF and Guthrie instead of Tiote...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Collapse against Fulham with Best on the left, Shola CF and Guthrie instead of Tiote...... First time we used 4-3-3 wasn't it. The best footballing (first) half we played all season that was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I'm not really interested in aesthetics, I'm only interested in getting the best out of the players we have. A direct style when we played with Barton, Carroll and Nolan I enjoyed watching because that was the style that suited our players - we created plenty of chances and scored plenty goals. I think we play far more long balls now than we did then and with players who clearly prefer it into feet and it clearly does not work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Collapse against Fulham with Best on the left, Shola CF and Guthrie instead of Tiote...... First time we used 4-3-3 wasn't it. The best footballing (first) half we played all season that was. We had experimented with it a few times i think, used against QPR too. It's quite obvious it only really works to optimal level with Ba,Cisse, Ben Arfa otherwise it falls down for obvious reasons. I'm not prepared to say Marveaux-Cisse-Ben Arfa won't ever work either though because it failed against Everton. It failed against Everton because we hoofed not sure how we can expect a front 3 based upon speed, movement, dribbling, passing to work when Williamson lumps the ball in the sky. This is why we need find a philosophy that fits the players we have because there's no point playing 4-3-3 if we are going to hoof it. Style of play > System > Players and then build the club around that style of play and system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest icemanblue Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Within reason, I just like to see us winning games and being successful. It's likely because of this that I'm not overly concerned with the particulars of last season. I don't particularly fear for our future, because the evidence is there, from our past, that we are well equipped to perform admirably in this league. I expect results and performances to improve. I do worry, however, that some will never be happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 yep mentioned it a few post earlier we actually played 4-3-3/4-5-1 that game ironically, also remembered the collapse vs WBA and getting tonked by Wigan 4-0 That Wigan one was hard to take as we got raped. Was it Di Santo that scored that weird beast? dont remember who scored but it was definitely a filthy scoreline ive tryed best to forget but couldn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Find that very far fetched personally. It might be a contributing factor (which probably comes from spending so much time preparing for the opposition), however I think a lot of it is coached and instructed. Perhaps because Pardew wants the ball as far away from our goal as possible, as quickly as possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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