Flip Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Tbf we do seem too be outplayed a lot but when you look at opposing fans comments after games it definitely looks like both sides see the game differently. I have watched games where we have looked completely outclassed (to me) but then you look at the other fans comments and they are saying the same about their team, you look at the stats and their are very similar etc.. I still don't think we control games anywhere near enough and our final third football is often atrocious but as a group of fans I think we tend to downplay what we do well and overrate what the opposition do a fair bit. I can't see anything from Pardew to make me think he's going to give us an edge. I think we're almost completely reliant on our players getting us results. I know that’s probably far too simplistic to say but I can’t be bothered to go into any detail. I can't even see anything being built by him under the first team and you would think that a manager with his length of contract would be trying to build something for the future, he's not, at least I've seen no evidence of it. It's a pity because he's working from a position of strength because the people he works for clearly want him to do well. Have a vague memory of you being one the only ones on my side re: Pardew last season when winning. Agree with everything you said btw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 We won half of our league games last season, and only lost one more than the team that finished third with just five points more. I have a lot of doubts about Pardew's true ability at present but to say he's out-coached every single game is laughably harsh. He's not out-coached every single game but even last season when we were winning it was often a struggle and our style of play was often dour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I don't think we dominated but did play well, but the stadium was buzzing and carried that team to a win as soon as Gouff helped us get that 2nd goal. Can't be arsed any more. Already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 We won half of our league games last season, and only lost one more than the team that finished third with just five points more. I have a lot of doubts about Pardew's true ability at present but to say he's out-coached every single game is laughably harsh. He's not out-coached every single game but even last season when we were winning it was often a struggle and our style of play was often dour. I don't disagree. Went to plenty of shite games last season. My point was the hyperbole is daft. The truth is this season's been as crappy as last season was good (overall). Provided we don't go down, he deserves next season at least to show which is the truer reflection of his ability to manage this squad, which is now only one or two players away from being about as good as he and we could realistically hope for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 We won half of our league games last season, and only lost one more than the team that finished third with just five points more. I have a lot of doubts about Pardew's true ability at present but to say he's out-coached every single game is laughably harsh. He's not out-coached every single game but even last season when we were winning it was often a struggle and our style of play was often dour. I don't disagree. Went to plenty of shite games last season. My point was the hyperbole is daft. The truth is this season's been as crappy as last season was good (overall). Provided we don't go down, he deserves next season at least to show which is the truer reflection of his ability to manage this squad, which is now only one or two players away from being about as good as he and we could realistically hope for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I don't think we dominated but did play well, but the stadium was buzzing and carried that team to a win as soon as Gouff helped us get that 2nd goal. Can't be arsed any more. Already. Aye, and I can't be arsed with your simplistic view of football. What I was trying to point out and maybe explained it in a weird way, what got our win that day was a lot to do with a Chelsea mistake at the back which led to Gouff running away from Oscar (!!!!) before Sissoko scored. It wasn't a creation of the imaginary mastertactician Alan Depardieu. The fact that some try to forget we have a very good starting 11 and point towards Pardew as a big reason for us finishing 5th last season is quite tiring. The man got us to the worst league start ever as soon as we got couple of injuries. Like Mick said, we rely almost barely on our players, and that's because we don't have a manager capable of winning games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Saying he's "outcoached every game" is unnecessary hyperbole that creates a self-defeating straw man that is oh-so-easy to knock down and detracts from his very many genuine and glaring flaws. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Saying he's "outcoached every game" is unnecessary hyperbole that creates a self-defeating straw man that is oh-so-easy to knock down and detracts from his very many genuine and glaring flaws. Quite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I don't think we dominated but did play well, but the stadium was buzzing and carried that team to a win as soon as Gouff helped us get that 2nd goal. Can't be arsed any more. Already. Aye, and I can't be arsed with your simplistic view of football. What I was trying to point out and maybe explained it in a weird way, what got our win that day was a lot to do with a Chelsea mistake at the back which led to Gouff running away from Oscar (!!!!) before Sissoko scored. It wasn't a creation of the imaginary mastertactician Alan Depardieu. The fact that some try to forget we have a very good starting 11 and point towards Pardew as a big reason for us finishing 5th last season is quite tiring. The man got us to the worst league start ever as soon as we got couple of injuries. Like Mick said, we rely almost barely on our players, and that's because we don't have a manager capable of winning games. If you start looking at individual mistakes like that (with our positives) then surely it's only fair to do the same with the negatives. If we hadn't given away a freekick or Perch had jumped Bale wouldn't have scored the first. If Taylor had won the ball or Colo hadn't just stood there Bale wouldn't have got the second. So basically, thanks to Pardew we would have beat Spurs it was just the mistakes and not Spurs outcoaching Pardew that cost us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I don't think we dominated but did play well, but the stadium was buzzing and carried that team to a win as soon as Gouff helped us get that 2nd goal. Can't be arsed any more. Already. Aye, and I can't be arsed with your simplistic view of football. What I was trying to point out and maybe explained it in a weird way, what got our win that day was a lot to do with a Chelsea mistake at the back which led to Gouff running away from Oscar (!!!!) before Sissoko scored. It wasn't a creation of the imaginary mastertactician Alan Depardieu. The fact that some try to forget we have a very good starting 11 and point towards Pardew as a big reason for us finishing 5th last season is quite tiring. The man got us to the worst league start ever as soon as we got couple of injuries. Like Mick said, we rely almost barely on our players, and that's because we don't have a manager capable of winning games. If you start looking at individual mistakes like that (with our positives) then surely it's only fair to do the same with the negatives. If we hadn't given away a freekick or Perch had jumped Bale wouldn't have scored the first. If Taylor had won the ball or Colo hadn't just stood there Bale wouldn't have got the second. So basically, thanks to Pardew we would have beat Spurs it was just the mistakes and not Spurs outcoaching Pardew that cost us Now though, like I said and has been pointing out, every single game was an exaggeration, however, you're making a point to my case. A good coach would've started MBiwa and Tiote over Saylor and Perch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 He's got the mentality of a loser, and that's why he never will be a top manager. He's not a winner like SAF or Mourinho. He's a negative, scared little coward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I don't think we dominated but did play well, but the stadium was buzzing and carried that team to a win as soon as Gouff helped us get that 2nd goal. Can't be arsed any more. Already. Aye, and I can't be arsed with your simplistic view of football. What I was trying to point out and maybe explained it in a weird way, what got our win that day was a lot to do with a Chelsea mistake at the back which led to Gouff running away from Oscar (!!!!) before Sissoko scored. It wasn't a creation of the imaginary mastertactician Alan Depardieu. The fact that some try to forget we have a very good starting 11 and point towards Pardew as a big reason for us finishing 5th last season is quite tiring. The man got us to the worst league start ever as soon as we got couple of injuries. Like Mick said, we rely almost barely on our players, and that's because we don't have a manager capable of winning games. If you start looking at individual mistakes like that (with our positives) then surely it's only fair to do the same with the negatives. If we hadn't given away a freekick or Perch had jumped Bale wouldn't have scored the first. If Taylor had won the ball or Colo hadn't just stood there Bale wouldn't have got the second. So basically, thanks to Pardew we would have beat Spurs it was just the mistakes and not Spurs outcoaching Pardew that cost us Now though, like I said and has been pointing out, every single game was an exaggeration, however, you're making a point to my case. A good coach would've started MBiwa and Tiote over Saylor and Perch. No you're just twisting things to favour your argument. MBiwa could have missed a crucial header Taylor made or Tiote may have been sent off for a reckless challenge or two leading us to get beaten by a bigger margin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 He's got the mentality of a loser, and that's why he never will be a top manager. He's not a winner like SAF or Mourinho. He's a negative, scared little coward. I agree he is very negative when it's going against us but we aren't going to attract a manager of the profile you have mentioned Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I don't disagree. Went to plenty of s**** games last season. My point was the hyperbole is daft. The truth is this season's been as crappy as last season was good (overall). Provided we don't go down, he deserves next season at least to show which is the truer reflection of his ability to manage this squad, which is now only one or two players away from being about as good as he and we could realistically hope for. Hyperbole is daft and we’re probably all guilty of it at times, especially after some of our performances this season. That said I don't think he deserves next season while recognising that he probably will get it. I no longer feel that we'll go down but that's down to the business the club have done during the transfer window. Without that transfer window I have little doubt that we would have gone down. We were like a ship wreck just a few weeks ago and we would have been looking at our worst one season decline in 35 years. Next season will probably be better than this season, it has to be because we look much stronger than we were going into this season and not playing in Europe will make life easier. Pardew might even gain us some points during games but I can also see him losing some because of his negativity. Something I can't see changing unless he does have more faith in the team he can put out but you would like to think that he would have had faith in the players this season after finishing so high last season. Maybe Pardew getting a lift in January can be carried on through the summer, I’m not going to hold my breath. I think the squad he had going into January were better than the league position we were in. I think he’ll be just as capable of making mistakes next season as this, while recognising that bringing on Gouffran from the bench will be better than bringing on Sammy or Ferguson. I hope he proves me to be wrong, not for him, for us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 He's got the mentality of a loser, and that's why he never will be a top manager. He's not a winner like SAF or Mourinho. He's a negative, scared little coward. Harsh, but to an extent true. Me and palnese always agree with each other. We also know that Anderson is the best midfielder in the league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I don't think we dominated but did play well, but the stadium was buzzing and carried that team to a win as soon as Gouff helped us get that 2nd goal. Can't be arsed any more. Already. Aye, and I can't be arsed with your simplistic view of football. What I was trying to point out and maybe explained it in a weird way, what got our win that day was a lot to do with a Chelsea mistake at the back which led to Gouff running away from Oscar (!!!!) before Sissoko scored. It wasn't a creation of the imaginary mastertactician Alan Depardieu. The fact that some try to forget we have a very good starting 11 and point towards Pardew as a big reason for us finishing 5th last season is quite tiring. The man got us to the worst league start ever as soon as we got couple of injuries. Like Mick said, we rely almost barely on our players, and that's because we don't have a manager capable of winning games. If you start looking at individual mistakes like that (with our positives) then surely it's only fair to do the same with the negatives. If we hadn't given away a freekick or Perch had jumped Bale wouldn't have scored the first. If Taylor had won the ball or Colo hadn't just stood there Bale wouldn't have got the second. So basically, thanks to Pardew we would have beat Spurs it was just the mistakes and not Spurs outcoaching Pardew that cost us Now though, like I said and has been pointing out, every single game was an exaggeration, however, you're making a point to my case. A good coach would've started MBiwa and Tiote over Saylor and Perch. No you're just twisting things to favour your argument. MBiwa could have missed a crucial header Taylor made or Tiote may have been sent off for a reckless challenge or two leading us to get beaten by a bigger margin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 He's got the mentality of a loser, and that's why he never will be a top manager. He's not a winner like SAF or Mourinho. He's a negative, scared little coward. I agree he is very negative when it's going against us but we aren't going to attract a manager of the profile you have mentioned No shit I just want a positive manager, like Martinez. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 He's got the mentality of a loser, and that's why he never will be a top manager. He's not a winner like SAF or Mourinho. He's a negative, scared little coward. I agree he is very negative when it's going against us but we aren't going to attract a manager of the profile you have mentioned No s*** I just want a positive manager, like Martinez. It's not about a positive manager, it's about a manager who sees football the way it should be seen. We can't seriously make a case that our squad is weaker than Soton, Norwich, Fulham, WBA, Stoke, WHam and yet we are sitting couple points behind them and without investments in the squad probably would've been even more points. I mean for me Villa has the worst squad in the league, yet we somehow managed to give them a chance to come close to drawing with us after being up 2-0. I think this and last season we have relied to much on individual brilliance and that Pardew gets far more praise than he deserves after wins. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 He's got the mentality of a loser, and that's why he never will be a top manager. He's not a winner like SAF or Mourinho. He's a negative, scared little coward. Harsh, but to an extent true. Me and palnese always agree with each other. We also know that Anderson is the best midfielder in the league. http://e1.365dm.com/07/09/460x238/Anderson_565277.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Martinez is overrated in the extreme. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 He's got the mentality of a loser, and that's why he never will be a top manager. He's not a winner like SAF or Mourinho. He's a negative, scared little coward. I agree he is very negative when it's going against us but we aren't going to attract a manager of the profile you have mentioned No s*** I just want a positive manager, like Martinez. It's not about a positive manager, it's about a manager who sees football the way it should be seen. We can't seriously make a case that our squad is weaker than Soton, Norwich, Fulham, WBA, Stoke, WHam and yet we are sitting couple points behind them and without investments in the squad probably would've been even more points. I mean for me Villa has the worst squad in the league, yet we somehow managed to give them a chance to come close to drawing with us after being up 2-0. I think this and last season we have relied to much on individual brilliance and that Pardew gets far more praise than he deserves after wins. Anderson agrees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Martinez is overrated in the extreme. I think he's doing a great job with a Championship squad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Martinez is overrated in the extreme. To be honest here, he might be as I don't think he would win us the league as some might think, but he is far ahead of Pardew. His squad is Championship level ffs. Caldwell captains his side, the fact they haven't been relegated in the last years gives him enormous credibility and while it might not work with his players he imposes a style of football which is nice to see and which is the foundation to why Swansea are where they are. It's a matter of having the right players for the right system, but I rather have the wrong players for his system, than the wrong players for Pardews system (if he actually has one). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 A great job, really? Three points off safety? I don't doubt that he's got a shite squad but he's the one that's put it together and when he has been given decent money he's generally spent it on a right load of rubbish. He hasn't had significantly less resources to work with than Reading, or Swansea, or Norwich, or Fulham, or West Brom, or Everton. Some of them clubs have had money to spend by selling players they've improved - Martinez hasn't because he doesn't seem to improve players, or get players in that are a bargain and whose value rockets. People just seem to like him cos his team passes the ball. That's not enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Did well with Moses, James McCarthy seems to be developing quite well. Also he's probably the only manager ever to get something tangible out of N'Zogbia. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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