Hatem Ben Arfa (still a free agent)

[Elliottman]

That's the one, cheers.

 

Didn't have Hatem starting his run from so deep, nor picking Cisse out from such a narrow field position.  Makes it even better than I remembered

 

Which other games did Hatem grab us the winning goal?

 

Actual winners? His Villa goal, was it Fulham at home when Remy knocked it out wide and he cut back in and put it in the far corner? His wondergoal against Blackburn are a few off the top of the head.

[oldtype]

There's a huge difference between having fantastic talent and being a fantastic player and Ben Arfa is the text book example unfortunately.

 

Didn't help that he had Pardew for a manager, but at some point he has to stand up and accept responsibility for what his career has become.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Nah.

[Optimistic Nut]

I don't think oldtype is far off there tbh.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Anyway, another couple of examples where he was expected to pull the rabbit out the hat was West Ham when he nearly did and was the only one that would have and Fulham when he did. Both at home last season.

[Guest firetotheworks]

The Bolton and Blackburn ones are obvious, Bolton had much of the better chances until he ran right through the middle of their team.

[oldtype]

Obviously I'll love him forever for the Bolton and Blackburn goals, but he could have easily been so much more if he got his head together.

[Hanshithispantz]

He did far more than the Bolton and Blackburn goals man. I get the point of bringing up that he's maybe a difficult charecter and perhaps didn't fully apply himself in the way someone like Gareth Bale does but he's hardly unique in that regard. He was brilliant when he was on the pitch, and arguably no less consistent than any other attacking player outside of Remy and Ba (who had his ups and downs in the middle).

 

I cannot knock him for his flaws when they were nowhere near apparent enough to justify the lack of game time he recieved, that was entirely Alan Pardew's doing.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Or if managers had put footballing output above off the field irrelevance and stats that fly in the face of common sense.

 

Case in point.

 

5-1 vs Stoke:

Assist,

Won a penalty,

Hit the bar,

Hit the post.

 

Next game: Dropped for Gouffran in a 0-1 home loss to Arsenal.

 

I'll never not blame Pardew. Whatever you think of Ben Arfa, when he started he shone.

 

[Guest firetotheworks]

Remember when Santon was crap against Chelsea and Pardew said that he was good, despite not looking good, because his stats were good?

 

You don't really need any further evidence of how he operated. For all we know HBA's stats might have been crap vs Bolton, Blackburn, Villa or whoever, but it doesn't matter.

[oldtype]

Ben Arfa has fallen out with managers other than Pardew.

 

Players who barely have a fifth of Ben Arfa's talent have done well under Pardew.

 

Pardew is shit, but it's very naive to believe that Ben Arfa would have thrived under any decent manager. He's far from blameless in any of this.

[themanupstairs]

This work ethic stuff is hilarious to me

 

He's a forward, you are not supposed to have him track back constantly in his own half because it's ineffective.

 

Look at all the best teams, hell even just good teams they don't make their forwards (centre or wide) track back into his own half the way Pardew made him.

 

They make them press from the front, but once it gets past their zone it becomes the midfields problem and so on. Most teams defend like that now.

 

Not like Ben Arfa never did that, I don't want Ben Arfa defending deep inside his own half anyway he's s*** at it. He should be nowhere near his own box, he's a danger to the team like most forwards are.

 

 

 

Usually, when you are playing as a winger, it´s your job to follow the fullback if he advances. If you are not doing that, it usually mean 2 v 1 situation on your flank.

 

Ironically, when he was at his absolute best for us, apart from producing the breath-taking moments in attack, he was also working very hard to track back and help defend danger from the opposition on his side of the pitch. He was also extremely intelligent in getting the release ball out and darting forward to receive it on the counter, which is an even better form of defence (transition that Mourinho is obsessed with).

 

When his overall performance dropped because of being dropped/mishandled/coming on at 4-0 down with 5 mins to go etc....his work ethic also dropped. Ben Arfa may not be a model professional, but he is a genius artist who was very badly and miserably mismanaged by Pardew. Criminally so.

[Hanshithispantz]

Ben Arfa has fallen out with managers other than Pardew.

 

Players who barely have a fifth of Ben Arfa's talent have done well under Pardew.

 

Pardew is shit, but it's very naive to believe that Ben Arfa would have thrived under any decent manager. He's far from blameless in any of this.

I see little point in looking at Ben Arfa's carreer outside of what we saw at NUFC. You could argue that under a different manager it would have deteriated far sooner than it did under AP (about 3 years) but given what we've seen I find it pretty hard to believe.

 

What we know is that despite looking very good when on the pitch Alan Pardew refused to play him because "his stats weren't right" he "isn't a winger" and "he's not quite there yet"; it still took until this season for him to finally crack.

 

It's not like we haven't seen the same treatment of about half a dozen other players during the last 4 years.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Ben Arfa has fallen out with managers other than Pardew.

 

Players who barely have a fifth of Ben Arfa's talent have done well under Pardew.

 

Pardew is shit, but it's very naive to believe that Ben Arfa would have thrived under any decent manager. He's far from blameless in any of this.

 

That's not really the point. He was thriving for us under Pardew, that's the entire basis for this argument. No one is suggesting he's a saint, but it doesn't come before the benefit of the football, the results and the team.

 

You can quite easily point at Pardew and do the same - Ben Arfa, Tevez, Mascherano, Marveaux, Yanga-Mbiwa, Bigirimana, Jonas, Cabella are all players that have either fallen out with Pardew or been dropped for non-football reasons.

[oldtype]

I just don't get this need to pin the blame entirely on one side or another. Obviously we won't know exactly how much responsibility each side holds for things breaking down but I'm pretty sure it isn't 100% to 0%.

 

Pardew's a shit manager but it really can't be denied that Ben Arfa has his own issues. His record shows a consistent pattern of interpersonal difficulties that have limited his success at every club he's been at. The likes of Tevez or Mascherano seem to have done just fine for themselves despite having been "Pardewed" for a period of time. (And by all accounts both of them are pretty intense headcases as well)

[Mole_Toonfan]

I'll never blame Ben Arfa because of all the shit he had to deal with for years before he simply had enough.

 

It was a miracle it lasted as long as it did before he "rebelled" against Pardew after the constant disgusting treatment for no reason.

 

Don't really care what he did at other clubs, all I know is at this club he was fine for years until like a year ago when he rightfully had enough of Pardew's crap.

[oldtype]

I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I'll never blame Ben Arfa because of all the shit he had to deal with for years before he simply had enough.

 

It was a miracle it lasted as long as it did before he "rebelled" against Pardew after the constant disgusting treatment for no reason.

 

Don't really care what he did at other clubs, all I know is at this club he was fine for years until like a year ago when he rightfully had enough of Pardew's crap.

 

[TaylorJ_01]

I hate Pardew so god damn much.

[TaylorJ_01]

Players who barely have a fifth of Ben Arfa's talent have done well under Pardew.

 

 

I don't see how this is a good argument

[Guest firetotheworks]

I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that.

 

Well, what are you even arguing for man? You're basically suggesting that his personality or attitude has a lot to do with it as if that's in any way more important than what he does come the weekend. It's not, at the other end of the scale you have people like Shola Ameobi, zero talent, total commitment and attitude yet produces exactly fuck all and carves out a career for himself here because the coaches invest more in what players can do in training and what their attitude is than what they do on the pitch. It's utter nonsense.

 

Ben Arfa by most accounts might be a bit of a nutcase, but that's nowhere near as important as being a very good at your job.

[oldtype]

I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that.

 

Well, what are you even arguing for man? You're basically suggesting that his personality or attitude has a lot to do with it as if that's in any way more important than what he does come the weekend. It's not, at the other end of the scale you have people like Shola Ameobi, zero talent, total commitment and attitude yet produces exactly fuck all and carves out a career for himself here because the coaches invest more in what players can do in training and what their attitude is than what they do on the pitch. It's utter nonsense.

 

Ben Arfa by most accounts might be a bit of a nutcase, but that's nowhere near as important as being a very good at your job.

 

Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job and also not be a nutcase? 

[Mole_Toonfan]

I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that.

 

Nope I looked at his entire career for us not just one year. He was here for 5 years and treated like crap the entire time.

 

I'm surprised it took till the 5th year before he finally had enough, with his reputation I would have expected him to start getting pissed when he was getting benched for Raylor and Obertan.

 

He never did though, i doubt there is many players out there who could have dealt with the same crap for 4 years and been ok with it.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that.

 

Well, what are you even arguing for man? You're basically suggesting that his personality or attitude has a lot to do with it as if that's in any way more important than what he does come the weekend. It's not, at the other end of the scale you have people like Shola Ameobi, zero talent, total commitment and attitude yet produces exactly fuck all and carves out a career for himself here because the coaches invest more in what players can do in training and what their attitude is than what they do on the pitch. It's utter nonsense.

 

Ben Arfa by most accounts might be a bit of a nutcase, but that's nowhere near as important as being a very good at your job.

 

Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job and also not be a nutcase?

 

Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job FULL STOP! We have had players for years and years that are shit at their jobs, yet that's less relevant than someone being a bit of a dick but being very good at their job? Howeh! He wouldn't have even been here if he wasn't a bit of a nutcase, we all knew that. People go on like we've consistently had better players over the years when we all know that we absolutely haven't.

[oldtype]

I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that.

 

Well, what are you even arguing for man? You're basically suggesting that his personality or attitude has a lot to do with it as if that's in any way more important than what he does come the weekend. It's not, at the other end of the scale you have people like Shola Ameobi, zero talent, total commitment and attitude yet produces exactly fuck all and carves out a career for himself here because the coaches invest more in what players can do in training and what their attitude is than what they do on the pitch. It's utter nonsense.

 

Ben Arfa by most accounts might be a bit of a nutcase, but that's nowhere near as important as being a very good at your job.

 

Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job and also not be a nutcase?

 

Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job FULL STOP! We have had players for years and years that are shit at their jobs, yet that's less relevant than someone being a bit of a dick but being very good at their job? Howeh! He wouldn't have even been here if he wasn't a bit of a nutcase, we all knew that. People go on like we've consistently had better players over the years when we all know that we absolutely haven't.

 

So just because Shola Ameobi exists Ben Arfa is immune from any criticism about allowing his immense talent to go to waste? I just don't get it.

 

I agree that he wouldn't have been here in the first place if he wasn't a known troublemaker I suppose.