Dalian Atkinson (1968-2016)

[TRon]

Why would you need to kick someone in the head to restrain them? I think only a copper would get away with explaining that one. 

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

That's not what you said though. 

[Fantail Breeze]

Just now, Shays Given Tim Flowers said:

That's not what you said though. 

I was talking about this specific incident, quite clearly.

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

So clear you said in 'no situation'. 

[ED209]

Just now, Fantail Breeze said:

I can tell you now, there isn’t a jury in the world that we see the act of kicking someone in the head as reasonable nor proportionate in the act of a police officer.

In order to kick someone in the head, they would either be on the floor or close to it. Therefore it’s unlikely they would be posing a significant threat to life at the point.

Police are also unable to use their baton on someone’s head, for good reason, which is why a kick to the head will be seen in a similar way.

 

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. 
 

So are you saying if someone has a large knife and is about to stab you in the chest with it it would not be reasonable and lawful to hit them as hard as you possibly could in the head with a baton or whatever else you could lay your hands on?

of course it would be lawful whether you are a police officer or any random member of the public. 
 

 

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

Worth keeping in mind that the officer is charged with murder. Excessive self defence could lead to the lesser offence of manslaughter.

[ED209]

2 minutes ago, Fantail Breeze said:

I was talking about this specific incident, quite clearly.

But we and you don’t know exactly what happened in this specific incident so how can you judge? 

[Fantail Breeze]

Just now, Shays Given Tim Flowers said:

So clear you said in 'no situation'. 

‘No situation’ in this specific incident between police officers. My whole post literally talks about police officers, I’m clearly not talking generally.

That said, it’d be incredibly hard to prove self defence in any incident where someone is kicked in the head, for similar reasons as I’ve pointed out.

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

Express yourself more clearly and you'll avoid the tedium.  

[Fantail Breeze]

2 minutes ago, ED209 said:

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. 
 

So are you saying if someone has a large knife and is about to stab you in the chest with it it would not be reasonable and lawful to hit them as hard as you possibly could in the head with a baton or whatever else you could lay your hands on?

of course it would be lawful whether you are a police officer or any random member of the public. 
 

 

I have no idea what I’m talking about  Okay.

If someone was going to stab you with a large knife, how would you kick them in the head? Unless we want to be ridiculous and throw a karate champion into this wild scenario.

Just now, Shays Given Tim Flowers said:

Express yourself more clearly and you'll avoid the tedium.  

Don’t be pedantic and upset if you’ve misinterpreted something  

[Fantail Breeze]

3 minutes ago, ED209 said:

But we and you don’t know exactly what happened in this specific incident so how can you judge? 

Years of experience. What about you?

[ED209]

1 minute ago, Fantail Breeze said:

‘No situation’ in this specific incident between police officers. My whole post literally talks about police officers, I’m clearly not talking generally.

That said, it’d be incredibly hard to prove self defence in any incident where someone is kicked in the head, for similar reasons as I’ve pointed out.

There have been many cases where police shooting someone dead have been deemed to be lawful in the circumstances. A far higher level of force than a kick in the head.  So why would it be so hard to imagine a circumstance where a kick may be reasonable? 

[ED209]

1 minute ago, Fantail Breeze said:

I have no idea what I’m talking about  Okay.

If someone was going to stab you with a large knife, how would you kick them in the head? Unless we want to be ridiculous and throw a karate champion into this wild scenario.

Don’t be pedantic and upset if you’ve misinterpreted something  

Just as well I never mentioned kicking the person with the knife in the head then isn’t it. 

[Fantail Breeze]

Just now, ED209 said:

There have been many cases where police shooting someone dead have been deemed to be lawful in the circumstances. A far higher level of force than a kick in the head.  So why would it be so hard to imagine a circumstance where a kick may be reasonable? 

Of course they could shoot someone in that circumstance (assuming they are trained, of course).

But that’s entirely different to kicking someone in the head, which is a force that is very very unlikely to ever need to be used for the reasons I’ve pointed out.

[Dokko]

For an active police officer to be charged with straight up murder you’d think the evidence is quite compelling. It they throw one of their own under the bud they make damn sure they don’t get back up. 

[ED209]

1 minute ago, Fantail Breeze said:

Years of experience. What about you?

Years of experience of what? Unless you witnessed the incident or have viewed the evidence you have no idea what happened. The same as I have no idea what happened. 

[Fantail Breeze]

1 minute ago, ED209 said:

Just as well I never mentioned kicking the person with the knife in the head then isn’t it. 

Hitting them on the head with a baton would be difficult to prove proportionate. Why would the officer not hit them on the hand/arm that was holding the knife? The head is further away.

[ED209]

Just now, Fantail Breeze said:

Hitting them on the head with a baton would be difficult to prove proportionate. Why would the officer not hit them on the hand/arm that was holding the knife? The head is further away.

Because it’s not the movies. You hit the largest target area to stop someone. When faced with lethal force (a knife) then it’s reasonable to defend yourself with lethal force. 
 

have you ever personally experienced the massive adrenaline dump and total loss of fine motor skills you get when faced with a real and immediate threat to your life? 

[Fantail Breeze]

2 minutes ago, ED209 said:

Because it’s not the movies. You hit the largest target area to stop someone. When faced with lethal force (a knife) then it’s reasonable to defend yourself with lethal force. 
 

have you ever personally experienced the massive adrenaline dump and total loss of fine motor skills you get when faced with a real and immediate threat to your life? 

Yes, multiple times through my experience of working as a police officer.  Having had plenty of training on ‘force’ and how to apply it lawfully, in addition to being part of many prosecutions for it.

But sorry, you clearly know much more than me. Your first paragraph is very wrong.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Fantail Breeze

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

Also the Defence don't have to prove self-defence they simply have to produce some evidence to show that it was self defence (in this case probably by giving evidence or having said so in interview). The Crown then have to disprove it beyond reasonable doubt. 

The real issue in the case is likely going to be whether or not the officer intended to cause a really serious injury to atkinson or whether his actions were not intended to cause a really serious injury but were born out of a need to defend himself his colleague, which could involve an intention to cause a less than 'really serious' injury.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Shays Given Tim Flowers

[Fantail Breeze]

Just now, Shays Given Tim Flowers said:

Also the Defence don't have to prove self-defence they simply have to produce some evidence to show that it was self defence (in this case probably by giving evidence or having said so in interview). The Crown then have to disprove it beyond reasonable doubt. 

The real issue in the case is likelty going to be whether or not the officer intended to cause a really serious injury to atkinson or whether his actions were not intended to cause a really serious injury but were born out of a need to defend himself his colleague, which could involve an intention to cause a less than 'really serious' injury.

Not wrong at all. I’ll be intrigued to hear the defence. Not had a chance to read up on this much but will be following it closely.

[ED209]

2 minutes ago, Fantail Breeze said:

Yes, multiple times through my experience of working as a police officer.  Having had plenty of training on ‘force’ and how to apply it lawfully, in addition to being part of many prosecutions for it.

But sorry, you clearly know much more than me. Your first paragraph is very wrong.

I would suggest you need an OST refresher. Maybe a brush up on section 3 of the criminal law act  and section 117 of PACE. 

[ED209]

Anyway back to the case at hand.  I think it’s wrong to jump to conclusions until all of the evidence is heard. 
 

 

[Fantail Breeze]

Just now, ED209 said:

I would suggest you need an OST refresher. Maybe a brush up on section 3 of the criminal law act  and section 117 of PACE. 

Feel free the quote the legislation where I’m wrong  rather than just Googling the names.

[Dokko]

This is better than Line of Duty.