Thomson Mouse Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 We are absolutely in no position to gloat or take the piss out of these anymore. In fact their future is lot rosier than ours right now. Yes, they are in a hole at the moment but slowly they will climb out of it and find their feet again. We however are lumbered with a criminal who is being allowed to vandalise our club and the only possible way to get rid of him is to head down the path that Sunderland have taken over the last couple of years. In our case though, we will probably need to suffer a lot longer than they have to have any chance of getting rid of him.... and we may never actually be truly rid of our cancer anyway as Ashley may always have some kind of a stake in NUFC, even if he is not the owner. And of course, once this Gallowgate development is complete there will always be a bricks and mortar reminder of his legacy standing right next to SJP. In my 34 years of supporting NUFC I have never felt threatened or inferior to SAFC but for the first time in my lifetime I think within the next 5 years they will be the biggest club in the North East. Fuck off man They’re on their arse, they don’t know where their feet are at the moment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Boy Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 We are absolutely in no position to gloat or take the piss out of these anymore. In fact their future is lot rosier than ours right now. Yes, they are in a hole at the moment but slowly they will climb out of it and find their feet again. We however are lumbered with a criminal who is being allowed to vandalise our club and the only possible way to get rid of him is to head down the path that Sunderland have taken over the last couple of years. In our case though, we will probably need to suffer a lot longer than they have to have any chance of getting rid of him.... and we may never actually be truly rid of our cancer anyway as Ashley may always have some kind of a stake in NUFC, even if he is not the owner. And of course, once this Gallowgate development is complete there will always be a bricks and mortar reminder of his legacy standing right next to SJP. In my 34 years of supporting NUFC I have never felt threatened or inferior to SAFC but for the first time in my lifetime I think within the next 5 years they will be the biggest club in the North East. Always winter in your life. they are and will always be a shit club with shit fans. even when they were in the premier league for 10 years they regularly fucked off at half time if they were losing. Hounded every manager out. they have a couple f 2 bit chancers in charge now and they have not got any money to put in. they gambled on going up and 'flipping' the club to pay short. the gamble has failed hence having to get rid of players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest covmag Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 We are absolutely in no position to gloat or take the piss out of these anymore. In fact their future is lot rosier than ours right now. Yes, they are in a hole at the moment but slowly they will climb out of it and find their feet again. We however are lumbered with a criminal who is being allowed to vandalise our club and the only possible way to get rid of him is to head down the path that Sunderland have taken over the last couple of years. In our case though, we will probably need to suffer a lot longer than they have to have any chance of getting rid of him.... and we may never actually be truly rid of our cancer anyway as Ashley may always have some kind of a stake in NUFC, even if he is not the owner. And of course, once this Gallowgate development is complete there will always be a bricks and mortar reminder of his legacy standing right next to SJP. In my 34 years of supporting NUFC I have never felt threatened or inferior to SAFC but for the first time in my lifetime I think within the next 5 years they will be the biggest club in the North East. They are in the 3rd division Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam1 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 We are absolutely in no position to gloat or take the p*ss out of these anymore. In fact their future is lot rosier than ours right now. Yes, they are in a hole at the moment but slowly they will climb out of it and find their feet again. We however are lumbered with a criminal who is being allowed to vandalise our club and the only possible way to get rid of him is to head down the path that Sunderland have taken over the last couple of years. In our case though, we will probably need to suffer a lot longer than they have to have any chance of getting rid of him.... and we may never actually be truly rid of our cancer anyway as Ashley may always have some kind of a stake in NUFC, even if he is not the owner. And of course, once this Gallowgate development is complete there will always be a bricks and mortar reminder of his legacy standing right next to SJP. In my 34 years of supporting NUFC I have never felt threatened or inferior to SAFC but for the first time in my lifetime I think within the next 5 years they will be the biggest club in the North East. Give owa man. They can't attract players from fuckin' Yeovil Town. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Boy Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 We are absolutely in no position to gloat or take the piss out of these anymore. In fact their future is lot rosier than ours right now. Yes, they are in a hole at the moment but slowly they will climb out of it and find their feet again. We however are lumbered with a criminal who is being allowed to vandalise our club and the only possible way to get rid of him is to head down the path that Sunderland have taken over the last couple of years. In our case though, we will probably need to suffer a lot longer than they have to have any chance of getting rid of him.... and we may never actually be truly rid of our cancer anyway as Ashley may always have some kind of a stake in NUFC, even if he is not the owner. And of course, once this Gallowgate development is complete there will always be a bricks and mortar reminder of his legacy standing right next to SJP. In my 34 years of supporting NUFC I have never felt threatened or inferior to SAFC but for the first time in my lifetime I think within the next 5 years they will be the biggest club in the North East. They are in the 3rd division After the worst season in their entire history. Of course we should be ripping the piss out of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandy Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 It We are absolutely in no position to gloat or take the piss out of these anymore. In fact their future is lot rosier than ours right now. Yes, they are in a hole at the moment but slowly they will climb out of it and find their feet again. We however are lumbered with a criminal who is being allowed to vandalise our club and the only possible way to get rid of him is to head down the path that Sunderland have taken over the last couple of years. In our case though, we will probably need to suffer a lot longer than they have to have any chance of getting rid of him.... and we may never actually be truly rid of our cancer anyway as Ashley may always have some kind of a stake in NUFC, even if he is not the owner. And of course, once this Gallowgate development is complete there will always be a bricks and mortar reminder of his legacy standing right next to SJP. In my 34 years of supporting NUFC I have never felt threatened or inferior to SAFC but for the first time in my lifetime I think within the next 5 years they will be the biggest club in the North East. Always winter in your life. they are and will always be a shit club with shit fans. even when they were in the premier league for 10 years they regularly fucked off at half time if they were losing. Hounded every manager out. they have a couple f 2 bit chancers in charge now and they have not got any money to put in. they gambled on going up and 'flipping' the club to pay short. the gamble has failed hence having to get rid of players. You have got your head in the sand. If there is no takeover happening then believe me we are firmly on the path to becoming the exact same kind of club as them. This superiority complex that we have over them is currently based on fuck all. In 12 months its highly likely that we will be in the same division as them. Quite ironic that this board is full of people slagging off the people who continue to attend SJP for "not seeing the big picture". If you can't see where NUFC are headed and the fact that the Mackems have now bottomed out and can only start to go up then you are guilty of exactly the same small-mindedness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Imagine 5 years time, after a couple of near relegation misses, before back-to-back relegations and a failed promotion attempt, Lascelles being some sort of cult hero here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Boy Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 It We are absolutely in no position to gloat or take the piss out of these anymore. In fact their future is lot rosier than ours right now. Yes, they are in a hole at the moment but slowly they will climb out of it and find their feet again. We however are lumbered with a criminal who is being allowed to vandalise our club and the only possible way to get rid of him is to head down the path that Sunderland have taken over the last couple of years. In our case though, we will probably need to suffer a lot longer than they have to have any chance of getting rid of him.... and we may never actually be truly rid of our cancer anyway as Ashley may always have some kind of a stake in NUFC, even if he is not the owner. And of course, once this Gallowgate development is complete there will always be a bricks and mortar reminder of his legacy standing right next to SJP. In my 34 years of supporting NUFC I have never felt threatened or inferior to SAFC but for the first time in my lifetime I think within the next 5 years they will be the biggest club in the North East. Always winter in your life. they are and will always be a shit club with shit fans. even when they were in the premier league for 10 years they regularly fucked off at half time if they were losing. Hounded every manager out. they have a couple f 2 bit chancers in charge now and they have not got any money to put in. they gambled on going up and 'flipping' the club to pay short. the gamble has failed hence having to get rid of players. You have got your head in the sand. If there is no takeover happening then believe me we are firmly on the path to becoming the exact same kind of club as them. This superiority complex that we have over them is currently based on fuck all. In 12 months its highly likely that we will be in the same division as them. Quite ironic that this board is full of people slagging off the people who continue to attend SJP for "not seeing the big picture". If you can't see where NUFC are headed and the fact that the Mackems have now bottomed out and can only start to go up then you are guilty of exactly the same small-mindedness. They have not bottomed out. their finances are in an appalling mess and they desperately trying to cut costs. Financially Mike has us not competing where we should but we are not in an appalling mess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chopey Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Mike Ashley's finances are very healthy Newcastle United's are not, we are still in £111 million worth of debt even though we have only spent £10 million on transfers in 12 years and with Perez and Longstaff we will be £40 million + up, where the fuck has all the TV, merchandise and Season ticket money gone over the past 12 years ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandy Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 They have not bottomed out. their finances are in an appalling mess and they desperately trying to cut costs. Financially Mike has us not competing where we should but we are not in an appalling mess. Jesus Christ. Have you missed the last 10 days or something? Remember three years ago when they stayed up and "sent us down"? If you think that a similar reversal in fortunes for the two clubs cannnot happen in the same timescale then you are completely in denial. Simple fact is NUFC's future is on a total knife-edge. We get taken over and everything is rosy. Ashley stays and the next 5 to 10 years will be hell. And in that time the Mackems could very easily get their shit together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 We are absolutely in no position to gloat or take the piss out of these anymore. In fact their future is lot rosier than ours right now. Yes, they are in a hole at the moment but slowly they will climb out of it and find their feet again. We however are lumbered with a criminal who is being allowed to vandalise our club and the only possible way to get rid of him is to head down the path that Sunderland have taken over the last couple of years. In our case though, we will probably need to suffer a lot longer than they have to have any chance of getting rid of him.... and we may never actually be truly rid of our cancer anyway as Ashley may always have some kind of a stake in NUFC, even if he is not the owner. And of course, once this Gallowgate development is complete there will always be a bricks and mortar reminder of his legacy standing right next to SJP. In my 34 years of supporting NUFC I have never felt threatened or inferior to SAFC but for the first time in my lifetime I think within the next 5 years they will be the biggest club in the North East. Always winter in your life. they are and will always be a shit club with shit fans. even when they were in the premier league for 10 years they regularly fucked off at half time if they were losing. Hounded every manager out. they have a couple f 2 bit chancers in charge now and they have not got any money to put in. they gambled on going up and 'flipping' the club to pay short. the gamble has failed hence having to get rid of players. You have got your head in the sand. If there is no takeover happening then believe me we are firmly on the path to becoming the exact same kind of club as them. This superiority complex that we have over them is currently based on fuck all. In 12 months its highly likely that we will be in the same division as them. Quite ironic that this board is full of people slagging off the people who continue to attend SJP for "not seeing the big picture". If you can't see where NUFC are headed and the fact that the Mackems have now bottomed out and can only start to go up then you are guilty of exactly the same small-mindedness. I'm sorry but people who find solace in the mackems' plight totally fail to see what's really happening at "our" club. At least these small time cunts still have a club to support. On the other hand, there's no more Newcastle United - this bitter, snide, vengeful bully has killed this club and when he finally fucks off (won't be soon imo) there will be nothing left. There's a common misconception that all Ashley cares about is money. I think that his actions in these painful 12 years show without a doubt that he's an evil, paranoid coward who's main motivation is to "prove people wrong". It's not about business for him, it's about the hurt feelings of a man-child. In his mind, he's above the fans, above the history and traditions of the club, above Rafa Benitez and Kevin Keegan, above HMRC, above Companies House, above Parliament and the most basic labour laws.. We are stuck with a truly evil man on a major power trip and he hates us. Some day he'll get what he deserves. Two (three) very good posts above. The mackems are in a terrible mess mostly of their own making, but at least they had an honourable owner who held their hand up for their mistakes and gave up the club whilst taking no money out and footing most of the bill of their own failures. They are in the gutter but they can start looking up again. Meanwhile we are owned by an evil cunt who will happily destroy the club for his own benefit as he has done over the past 12 years and continue to leech it until he pops his clogs. By the time that happens we'll be lucky to be where the mackems are now, and we have much more frustration and anger to look forward to before we get there. Hell, by that time a large number of us may well not even be around anymore. This empty shell of a club could be the NUFC we know for the rest of our lives. Three years of Rafa working his magic may well have blinded a lot of fans, but before long we will be back to the dark days of someone like Pardew or Carver insulting our intelligence whilst stealing a living on our dime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandy Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 The mackems are in a terrible mess mostly of their own making, but at least they had an honourable owner who held their hand up for their mistakes and gave up the club whilst taking no money out and footing most of the bill of their own failures. They are in the gutter but they can start looking up again. Meanwhile we are owned by an evil cunt who will happily destroy the club for his own benefit as he has done over the past 12 years and continue to leech it until he pops his clogs. By the time that happens we'll be lucky to be where the mackems are now, and we have much more frustration and anger to look forward to before we get there. Hell, by that time a large number of us may well not even be around anymore. This empty shell of a club could be the NUFC we know for the rest of our lives. Three years of Rafa working his magic may well have blinded a lot of fans, but before long we will be back to the dark days of someone like Pardew or Carver insulting our intelligence whilst stealing a living on our dime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomson Mouse Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 They have not bottomed out. their finances are in an appalling mess and they desperately trying to cut costs. Financially Mike has us not competing where we should but we are not in an appalling mess. Jesus Christ. Have you missed the last 10 days or something? Remember three years ago when they stayed up and "sent us down"? If you think that a similar reversal in fortunes for the two clubs cannnot happen in the same timescale then you are completely in denial. Simple fact is NUFC's future is on a total knife-edge. We get taken over and everything is rosy. Ashley stays and the next 5 to 10 years will be hell. And in that time the Mackems could very easily get their shit together. Why does our future depend on what they’re doing? They’re in the shit, absolute no evidence ‘they’ve bottomed out’ so stop spouting shite. Could we do the same? Absolutely, especially the way things sit at this very moment. Does that have any relevance to Sunderland - no, complete crap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandy Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Why does our future depend on what they’re doing? Where did I say that it did? How about you read a post before commenting on it? I simply said that under Ashley we are headed for being exactly the same kind of club as they currently are, if not worse. Something that has not happened in my NUFC supporting lifetime of 34 years. And in that time they could rise out of the ashes and become bigger than us. It's really not rocket science to understand the concept. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomson Mouse Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Why does our future depend on what they’re doing? Where did I say that it did? How about you read a post before commenting on it? I simply said that under Ashley we are headed for being exactly the same kind of club as they currently are, if not worse. Something that has not happened in my NUFC supporting lifetime of 34 years. And in that time they could rise out of the ashes and become bigger than us. It's really not rocket science to understand the concept. They have not bottomed out. their finances are in an appalling mess and they desperately trying to cut costs. Financially Mike has us not competing where we should but we are not in an appalling mess. Jesus Christ. Have you missed the last 10 days or something? Remember three years ago when they stayed up and "sent us down"? If you think that a similar reversal in fortunes for the two clubs cannnot happen in the same timescale then you are completely in denial. Simple fact is NUFC's future is on a total knife-edge. We get taken over and everything is rosy. Ashley stays and the next 5 to 10 years will be hell. And in that time the Mackems could very easily get their shit together. Right there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomson Mouse Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Why does our future depend on what they’re doing? Where did I say that it did? How about you read a post before commenting on it? I simply said that under Ashley we are headed for being exactly the same kind of club as they currently are, if not worse. Something that has not happened in my NUFC supporting lifetime of 34 years. And in that time they could rise out of the ashes and become bigger than us. It's really not rocket science to understand the concept. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandy Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Why does our future depend on what they’re doing? Where did I say that it did? How about you read a post before commenting on it? I simply said that under Ashley we are headed for being exactly the same kind of club as they currently are, if not worse. Something that has not happened in my NUFC supporting lifetime of 34 years. And in that time they could rise out of the ashes and become bigger than us. It's really not rocket science to understand the concept. They have not bottomed out. their finances are in an appalling mess and they desperately trying to cut costs. Financially Mike has us not competing where we should but we are not in an appalling mess. Jesus Christ. Have you missed the last 10 days or something? Remember three years ago when they stayed up and "sent us down"? If you think that a similar reversal in fortunes for the two clubs cannnot happen in the same timescale then you are completely in denial. Simple fact is NUFC's future is on a total knife-edge. We get taken over and everything is rosy. Ashley stays and the next 5 to 10 years will be hell. And in that time the Mackems could very easily get their shit together. Right there. I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. This entire thread is about making comparisons between the two clubs, hence the "hahaha they are in the 3rd Division" comments. I am simply stating that both clubs are currently a shambles and the two divison gap is of little consequence and is something that can and will change if Ashley is still here next month. The superiority complex that we have justifiably held over them for decades will evaporate as we finally sink to their level as a club. Or worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomson Mouse Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Why does our future depend on what they’re doing? Where did I say that it did? How about you read a post before commenting on it? I simply said that under Ashley we are headed for being exactly the same kind of club as they currently are, if not worse. Something that has not happened in my NUFC supporting lifetime of 34 years. And in that time they could rise out of the ashes and become bigger than us. It's really not rocket science to understand the concept. They have not bottomed out. their finances are in an appalling mess and they desperately trying to cut costs. Financially Mike has us not competing where we should but we are not in an appalling mess. Jesus Christ. Have you missed the last 10 days or something? Remember three years ago when they stayed up and "sent us down"? If you think that a similar reversal in fortunes for the two clubs cannnot happen in the same timescale then you are completely in denial. Simple fact is NUFC's future is on a total knife-edge. We get taken over and everything is rosy. Ashley stays and the next 5 to 10 years will be hell. And in that time the Mackems could very easily get their shit together. Right there. I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. This entire thread is about making comparisons between the two clubs, hence the "hahaha they are in the 3rd Division" comments. I am simply stating that both clubs are currently a shambles and the two divison gap is of little consequence and is something that can and will change if Ashley is still here next month. The superiority complex that we have justifiably held over them for decades will evaporate as we finally sink to their level as a club. Or worse. The entire thread isn’t about making comparisons man, yes, some do but it’s not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandy Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 The entire thread isn’t about making comparisons man, yes, some do but it’s not. Of course it is man. They are our neighbours, the auld enemy, and in this thread every positive/negative event that happens at their club is subliminally used as a comparison to the ongoings of our own. We are just fortunate that for nearly 40 years, or to be precise since KK arrived in 82, we have lorded it over them and have been much higher profile whilst they have largely slummed it and given us numerous moments of hilarity. If this thread is not about making comparisons then why the fuck do we talk about them so much? It's not like they are an interesting or high profile top six club making waves, they are a nothing club who never achieve anything of note and yet this thread is always near the top of the board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomson Mouse Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 The entire thread isn’t about making comparisons man, yes, some do but it’s not. Of course it is man. They are our neighbours, the auld enemy, and in this thread every positive/negative event that happens at their club is subliminally used as a comparison to the ongoings of our own. We are just fortunate that for nearly 40 years, or to be precise since KK arrived in 82, we have lorded it over them and have been much higher profile whilst they have largely slummed it and given us numerous moments of hilarity. If this thread is not about making comparisons then why the fuck do we talk about them so much? It's not like they are an interesting or high profile top six club making waves, they are a nothing club who never achieve anything of note and yet this thread is always near the top of the board. Interesting Keegan comparison Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzgerald Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 We are absolutely in no position to gloat or take the p*ss out of these anymore. In fact their future is lot rosier than ours right now. Yes, they are in a hole at the moment but slowly they will climb out of it and find their feet again. We however are lumbered with a criminal who is being allowed to vandalise our club and the only possible way to get rid of him is to head down the path that Sunderland have taken over the last couple of years. In our case though, we will probably need to suffer a lot longer than they have to have any chance of getting rid of him.... and we may never actually be truly rid of our cancer anyway as Ashley may always have some kind of a stake in NUFC, even if he is not the owner. And of course, once this Gallowgate development is complete there will always be a bricks and mortar reminder of his legacy standing right next to SJP. In my 34 years of supporting NUFC I have never felt threatened or inferior to SAFC but for the first time in my lifetime I think within the next 5 years they will be the biggest club in the North East. Always winter in your life. they are and will always be a s*** club with s*** fans. even when they were in the premier league for 10 years they regularly f***ed off at half time if they were losing. Hounded every manager out. they have a couple f 2 bit chancers in charge now and they have not got any money to put in. they gambled on going up and 'flipping' the club to pay short. the gamble has failed hence having to get rid of players. You have got your head in the sand. If there is no takeover happening then believe me we are firmly on the path to becoming the exact same kind of club as them. This superiority complex that we have over them is currently based on f*** all. In 12 months its highly likely that we will be in the same division as them. Quite ironic that this board is full of people slagging off the people who continue to attend SJP for "not seeing the big picture". If you can't see where NUFC are headed and the fact that the Mackems have now bottomed out and can only start to go up then you are guilty of exactly the same small-mindedness. I'm sorry but people who find solace in the mackems' plight totally fail to see what's really happening at "our" club. At least these small time c***s still have a club to support. On the other hand, there's no more Newcastle United - this bitter, snide, vengeful bully has killed this club and when he finally f***s off (won't be soon imo) there will be nothing left. There's a common misconception that all Ashley cares about is money. I think that his actions in these painful 12 years show without a doubt that he's an evil, paranoid coward who's main motivation is to "prove people wrong". It's not about business for him, it's about the hurt feelings of a man-child. In his mind, he's above the fans, above the history and traditions of the club, above Rafa Benitez and Kevin Keegan, above HMRC, above Companies House, above Parliament and the most basic labour laws.. We are stuck with a truly evil man on a major power trip and he hates us. Some day he'll get what he deserves. Two (three) very good posts above. The mackems are in a terrible mess mostly of their own making, but at least they had an honourable owner who held their hand up for their mistakes and gave up the club whilst taking no money out and footing most of the bill of their own failures. They are in the gutter but they can start looking up again. Meanwhile we are owned by an evil c*** who will happily destroy the club for his own benefit as he has done over the past 12 years and continue to leech it until he pops his clogs. By the time that happens we'll be lucky to be where the mackems are now, and we have much more frustration and anger to look forward to before we get there. Hell, by that time a large number of us may well not even be around anymore. This empty shell of a club could be the NUFC we know for the rest of our lives. Three years of Rafa working his magic may well have blinded a lot of fans, but before long we will be back to the dark days of someone like Pardew or Carver insulting our intelligence whilst stealing a living on our dime. Spot on top post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzgerald Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Oh man :lol: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzgerald Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Gutted that Lee cattermole left who was their best player apparently . On about him been an asset to sheff wed in the championship, sure he was buckled and captained them to 24th in the champo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Their fans are special alright Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chopey Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 I like that fella, his football coupon story was heartfelt and he enjoys drinking his own piss Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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