christ Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, et tu brute said: My point had fuck all to do with soortswasihing, it was the correct point that Howe can do fuck all about the situation and that the letter should have been sent to the people who actually have the power to do something, whilst still raising awareness. I was going to let it go after my earlier comments, but you can fuck right off accusing people of sportwashing, when they're making a valid point. If you can’t understand why a pressure group may attempt to hand the letter to the manager of the Premier League team owned by the state of Saudi Arabia rather than airmail it to Riyadh then I can’t help you. It should be obvious. Trying to police the terms on which people raise awareness about what’s going on in Saudi Arabia is all part of sportswashing. You can’t allow them to access to the Premier League, allow them to purchase a plaything to launder their reputation, and complain when others use their presence in this particular sphere to point out they’re villains. It doesn’t matter that we have an emotional attachment to the club and might feel like we’re being attacked personally. It’s all part of the deal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 When has writing a letter to the people in power changed or raised awareness of anything? Surely you can see that although Howe is obviously powerless, it raises a lot more public awareness by giving a letter to him than say the UK Government? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
et tu brute Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 19 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: When has writing a letter to the people in power changed or raised awareness of anything? Surely you can see that although Howe is obviously powerless, it raises a lot more public awareness by giving a letter to him than say the UK Government? I think writing to the owners, uk government and the premier league will get you more awareness especially internationally. You don't agree that's your choice I think you're wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Just now, et tu brute said: I think writing to the owners, uk government and the premier league will get you more awareness especially internationally. You don't agree that's your choice I think you're wrong. Wow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 56 minutes ago, christ said: Why should I? It’s my club. I’ll keep supporting the team but I do so fully aware of who our owners are and with an always hypercritical eye on them. I’ll also not take it as a personal attack if someone tries to do something to raise awareness of the situation in Saudi. I hoped our supporters would keep their head’s screwed on, and we’d not allow ourselves to be ‘sportswashed’. The fact someone doing something as inoffensive as handing a letter to the club’s most prominent employee is met with such outrage suggests I was a bit fucking optimistic. It's not outrage, just I don't hold Eddie Howe personally responsible for what goes on in Saudi Arabia, neither do I think him taking the job makes him complicit in what goes on there. You do, so do your pals who specifically sought him out to hand over that letter. Mate you are entitled to your views, I just don't agree with them, and I am SO pleased that Howe is our manager and that he complicitly took the job. I hope if we score the winner on Sunday, you'll be true to yourselves and think, I can't enjoy this knowing our manager has enabled sportswashing for the Saudi regime. I really hope you give that good consideration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
et tu brute Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Just now, Kid Icarus said: Wow I think you should be saying that to yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
christ Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, TRon said: It's not outrage, just I don't hold Eddie Howe personally responsible for what goes on in Saudi Arabia, neither do I think him taking the job makes him complicit in what goes on there. You do, so do your pals who specifically sought him out to hand over that letter. Mate you are entitled to your views, I just don't agree with them, and I am SO pleased that Howe is our manager and that he complicitly took the job. I hope if we score the winner on Sunday, you'll be true to yourselves and think, I can't enjoy this knowing our manager has enabled sportswashing for the Saudi regime. I really hope you give that good consideration. Is this a wind up, because I don’t think at any point I claimed Eddie Howe was responsible for what’s going on in Saudi? I said he’s the most prominent spokesperson for any entity owned by Saudi (name me one other individual involved of any of their projects who is in front of the media at least twice a week) so he’s going to catch some flack from those trying to bring to people’s attention what’s going on over there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, TRon said: It's not outrage, just I don't hold Eddie Howe personally responsible for what goes on in Saudi Arabia, neither do I think him taking the job makes him complicit in what goes on there. You do, so do your pals who specifically sought him out to hand over that letter. Mate you are entitled to your views, I just don't agree with them, and I am SO pleased that Howe is our manager and that he complicitly took the job. I hope if we score the winner on Sunday, you'll be true to yourselves and think, I can't enjoy this knowing our manager has enabled sportswashing for the Saudi regime. I really hope you give that good consideration. Again though, there's a huge difference between holding Howe responsible or thinking he's complicit in what goes on in KSA and acknowledging he's a very public employee of PIF, who will receive a certain amount of scrutiny with that. Personally I would say in targeting Howe, the protest group is barking up the wrong tree, but he came into this role eyes wide open. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, et tu brute said: I think you should be saying that to yourself. Writing to the people in power happens all the time, you don't hear about it because it does absolutely nothing in terms of raising public awareness. We're talking about the subject at all because the letter's going to Howe rather than the people in power. If you think we or anyone else would be talking about it if that letter went to their MP, or the Premier League or the UK Government, that's your choice but I'd recommend looking into how civil rights movements have affected change and raised public awareness throughout history. Edited February 22, 2023 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
christ Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, Jack27 said: Does it involve installing a letter box outside Howe’s office? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
et tu brute Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 minute ago, The Prophet said: Personally I would say in targeting Howe, the protest group is barking up the wrong tree, but he came into this role eyes wide open. I agree with this, which is the point I was making. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
et tu brute Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, christ said: Does it involve installing a letter box outside Howe’s office? I'm quite sure you will be the first to offer if they do. Edited February 22, 2023 by et tu brute Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
et tu brute Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 7 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: Writing to the people in power happens all the time, you don't hear about it because it does absolutely nothing in terms of raising public awareness. We're talking about the subject at all because the letter's going to Howe rather than the people in power. If you think we or anyone else would be talking about it if that letter went to their MP, or the Premier League or the UK Government, that's your choice but I'd recommend looking into how civil rights movements have affected change and raised public awareness throughout history. I'm quite capable to form my own views based on historic events thank you very much. I disagree with your view, and respect also that your view is your choice also. I'll leave it there as my/your view is not going to change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Come on fellas, once you are done with this usual merry-go-round, pop yourselves over to the final thread. We have a canny big game coming up in a few days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, et tu brute said: I'm quite capable to form my own views based on historic events thank you very much. I disagree with your view, and respect also that your view is your choice also. I'll leave it there as my/your view is not going to change. Alright then, so if we turn it the other way around. If I've been ignorant to something, can you recommend any historic events I look into where change has been affected and public awareness has been raised by someone writing a letter to the people in power? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
et tu brute Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: Alright then, so if we turn it the other way around. If I've been ignorant to something, can you recommend any historic events I look into where change has been affected and public awareness has been raised by someone writing a letter to the people in power? Kashoggi's widow for one when writing to the premier league. Didn't change the takeover happening, but it certainly raised awareness both here and internationally. I'm not going to keep going back and forward with you. That's my last post on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 You always do that like Fair enough, your choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solitude20 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, Likelylad said: Where do you draw the line though? BAE Systems have numerous contracts with Saudi, Qatar, Oman etc. Are we expecting workers there to front up to MBS? MBDA's weapons are built in Stevenage & dropped in Yemen Yet Newcastle United and Eddie Howe are the problem. Bollocks There will never be a line. Let's face it, some people choose to ignore those lines for some issues and then choose to apply it rigorously on other issues claiming how they feel morally obligated to so do. I honestly don't get. If it's coming from a moral point of view, then we should apply it fairly and consistently to all countries, all companies, and all entities that are associated with wrongdoings. Otherwise, it doesn't mean anything. This isn't whataboutism, this is trying to stay consistent. If you accept it for some, then don't condemn those who accept it for others. This reminds of the current ongoing hype about the recent Harry Potter game. A lot of folks and major gaming communities started to condemn those who play the game because of Rowling view on transgenders, and they even started to call them bigots on social media and attack them merely for playing the game. It's funny because they are doing that on Twitter, a platform that happened to be owned by Elon Musk who also had similar views on transgenders. Why are you a bad person for playing the game but it's okay to use Twitter even though they did the same thing? Some folks are saying Howe has to sign that letter out of moral obligation and then continue with his job. Some might say this isn't enough, he shouldn't continue working with the PIF at all and get paid from them. They might even say you guys shouldn't support the club in the first place or else you would be supporting them. Why stop there, PIF owns stakes in Disney, Facebook, Nintendo, Uber, Blizzard Activision, Boeing, Electronic Arts, etc. Why don't they get the same treatment as Newcastle? Did they sign any letters? Almost every person on earth is associated one way or another with one of the companies listed above, but it's never been an issue. Why Single out Newcastle? Let's even go one step ahead and remind you that everything you own in your house must have at least some components that were made in China. For example, every iPhone you pay for will eventually give some cash to the CCP regime out of your pockets. Let's not even get started with the US argument and how we never hold them accountable for the invasions or the fucking torture they were responsible for. To summarize, we all should speak up of course against any wrongdoing, but I don't see a point demanding some actions out of moral obligation when we can't stay consistent and fair while demanding it. If you could live in a world where your personal purchases support the CCP regime financially, use Facebook or Uber, watch Disney movies, fly on a Boeing aircraft, or even play certain video games, then why complain when Howe could get his dream job from PIF? Edited February 22, 2023 by Solitude20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Agree with a lot of points there. Re Disney etc, I've made this point before, but if we're supposed to put Newcastle United, the club we've supported our whole lives on equal footing with brands like Disney, Uber, EA in terms of its meaning to us, then that tells its own story about what social and cultural institutions are increasingly viewed as. They're not supposed to be a brand, they're supposed to mean something more than that. They're supposed to be local cultural and social institutions that serve the community without it being just as a means to write off some tax. The over riding point for me is that it's become nigh on impossible to point out something you don't like without someone going 'well what about...?' because the tentacles of capitalism and these investment funds are everywhere and unavoidable. There's not a brand out there that isn't guilty of something. Pointing out that you don't like that situation - where it's impossible to make an ethical individual consumer choice, let alone a collective choice - and that you'd rather it wasn't that way doesn't make you a hypocrite, it means that maybe pointing the finger at each other at all, whether it's as accuser or as hypocrite, isn't a solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
et tu brute Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 hours ago, Kid Icarus said: You always do that like Fair enough, your choice. Because I can't be arsed going over and over again on something we (or other) don't agree on. Same with the other times, what's the point fucking about going back and forth when it's obvious views are different. I was going to let it go from yesterday, until the sportwashing accuser piped up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solitude20 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 6 hours ago, Kid Icarus said: Agree with a lot of points there. Re Disney etc, I've made this point before, but if we're supposed to put Newcastle United, the club we've supported our whole lives on equal footing with brands like Disney, Uber, EA in terms of its meaning to us, then that tells its own story about what social and cultural institutions are increasingly viewed as. They're not supposed to be a brand, they're supposed to mean something more than that. They're supposed to be local cultural and social institutions that serve the community without it being just as a means to write off some tax. The over riding point for me is that it's become nigh on impossible to point out something you don't like without someone going 'well what about...?' because the tentacles of capitalism and these investment funds are everywhere and unavoidable. There's not a brand out there that isn't guilty of something. Pointing out that you don't like that situation - where it's impossible to make an ethical individual consumer choice, let alone a collective choice - and that you'd rather it wasn't that way doesn't make you a hypocrite, it means that maybe pointing the finger at each other at all, whether it's as accuser or as hypocrite, isn't a solution. Oh I agreed with your last paragraph in my post. We all have the right to speak up, and we should. My only issue is when our moral standards are called into question if we didn’t take an action (In this case it’s Eddie signing that letter). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 19 hours ago, christ said: Is this a wind up, because I don’t think at any point I claimed Eddie Howe was responsible for what’s going on in Saudi? I said he’s the most prominent spokesperson for any entity owned by Saudi (name me one other individual involved of any of their projects who is in front of the media at least twice a week) so he’s going to catch some flack from those trying to bring to people’s attention what’s going on over there. This is a circular argument where we are all making the same points again and again. You support fans harassing Eddie Howe on account of him being complicit with the Saudi regime. I say that they should shove their letters at Staveley or Al-Rumayyan or some other cogs in the hierarchy. Or better still they could just shove off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 You seem to keep putting words in his mouth tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverThere Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 I don't think Eddie should have to answer anything with regards to Yemen or any other Saudi involvement in the world. He is the manager of the football team and should answer things about football only. His remit is not the geopolitical position of Saudi Arabia. If anyone should be answering questions like that it should be at the ownership/board level of NUFC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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