Eddie Howe - Granted Freedom of Newcastle

[The College Dropout]

IMO you try to rotate in 3 scenarios:

(1) where you think you will win comfortably - Crystal Palace (H) for example. But for us.. these games are rare. Didn't take those few occasions. 

(2) when you are up by a wide margin early - this is the least beneficial type of resting IMO but Howe doesn't do this much either - Sheff U away for example.

(3) On a congested fixture list, you just pick 1 to rotate - 4 games in 14 days, pick 1 to rotate players. We didn't do that either.

 

All the teams that compete in the CL group stages need to rotate. The elite teams can rest players in 1 or 2 CL games. The rest have to rest players in domestic cup competitions and the league IMO. When it was easier to do it, Howe didn't. When it was harder to do it, Howe didn't do it.

 

If not for Burn's injury - we probably don't see much of Livra. The entire approach to rotation is wrong IMO. And there's history - here and at Bournemouth. So I can't cut Eddie as much slack as others are willing. There's too much evidence that he's a co-conspirator in this crisis.

 

And tbh - I think Klopp is similar (but more willing to rotate still). Hence why Liverpool have feast seasons and some really ropey ones. I hope this is a ropey one for Howe. But the rotation, fatigue thing is an area of weakness. Not just something that has happened through bad luck alone.

 

4 minutes ago, Optimistic Nut said:

I'm sure the list of managers who have Howe's ability, can rotate the squad while also ironing out all of his tactical weaknesses are queuing up.

Yes finally we acknowledge he is a fallible human being who can make bad decisions. You are right - he is not perfect. Nobody else in this conversation is suggesting he's replaced though.

[80]

21 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

I don't disagree about some additional rotation and/or earlier subs in some games. I don't think Bruno, Wilson, or Trippier should have come on in the Man United cup game up 3-0. Subs could have been made earlier against Sheffield United, Palace, Villa (though it was the first game), Burnley, and possibly Chelsea with little or no risk to the result.

 

But there's a couple problems looking at this in hindsight (even for those who were saying it for certain games):

 

1) There is a natural bias based on the results. It's easy now to say we should have rested against Luton or Spurs or Everton or Bournemouth because we came away with nothing. Do people wish we played kids against Arsenal, Chelsea, Man United, or Fulham? Maybe, but it's not being said as much because then 3 points are at risk.

 

The last week we looked anything like ourselves was Chelsea > PSG > Man United. 6 points and minutes away from a massive CL result. That week also destroyed what the players had left. Should we have given one of those up for the sake of December? Maybe in hindsight, though there weren't many complaints at the time.

 

I also would have rotated more for Luton or Forest, but which one do you pick? The home game that is in theory easier or the away game because it's got short rest on either side? The common answer now would likely be 'either' but that's strongly influenced by the outcomes we now know.

 

2) The second XI for at least two months has been woefully short of PL quality. Personally (and I thought this at the time) I think we should have effectively conceded Spurs away. We had two days of rest after Everton, where the final 10 minutes showed us the state of things, and we had Milan coming up days later. But I think if we had rested for that game we would have been on the end of a genuinely embarrassing scoreline. Like potential PL record scoreline given their quality and the memory of what we did to them in April. I'm certain some on Eddie's back now would have also been furious at that. It may have been the difference against Milan, but we don't know for sure.

 

 

 

On your first point, it's fair comment about only talking about the defeats, but I think where we got our wins kind of proves my point - the Chelsea-PSG-Man U run came directly after an international break which had followed the capitulation at Bournemouth.

 

Certainly, I was worried after the Man United match as I knew what they'd all given was epic. And in terms of resting against big teams, well, I got a fair bit of stick on here last season when I was arguing that we should be prepared to accept fielding reserves in the Champions' League in order to prioritise a tricky away game against Brentford or Brighton this season, on the grounds that the league sustains the club's future. So I have form on that. The exact details are up for debate, but it's fair to say I didn't expect to play the same eleven players over and over again this season when I was saying that, though.

[Erikse]

3 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

Yes. Lose today. So that we may or may not win the next one. 
 

We will deliberately lose the battle and then we might win the war. Fuck knows. 

 

We're experiencing fatigue in a tight schedule, but let's try to maximize the next couple of games anyways. We may or may not win those, and then we will look like a Championship side for the next 5 games after that, gradually becoming worse and worse.

 

Does this sound better?

[Ginola14]

he's been ridiculously unlucky this season for so many reasons 

 

taking just the PSG and Chlesea away games 

 

had that awful penalty decision against PSG not been given we'd almost certainly still be in CL/Europe (the 97th minute ffs)

 

had Trippier not made that mistake in stoppage time at Chelsea  we'd have one foot in a LC final

 

(or had the ref sent of Caicedo at least, or penalties had gone the other way)

 

don't think anyone would be questioning Howe had those finest of margins gone the other way 

 

not to mention all the fucking freak injuries this season and Tonali suspension which has limited him so much in terms of team selection 

 

[MrRaspberryJam]

5 minutes ago, Ginola14 said:

he's been ridiculously unlucky this season for so many reasons 

 

taking just the PSG and Chlesea away games 

 

had that awful penalty decision against PSG not been given we'd almost certainly still be in CL/Europe (the 97th minute ffs)

 

had Trippier not made that mistake in stoppage time at Chelsea  we'd have one foot in a LC final

 

(or had the ref sent of Caicedo at least, or penalties had gone the other way)

 

don't think anyone would be questioning Howe had those finest of margins gone the other way 

 

not to mention all the fucking freak injuries this season and Tonali suspension which has limited him so much in terms of team selection 

 

Amen brother. 

[80]

2 minutes ago, Ginola14 said:

he's been ridiculously unlucky this season for so many reasons 

 

taking just the PSG and Chlesea away games 

 

had that awful penalty decision against PSG not been given we'd almost certainly still be in CL/Europe (the 97th minute ffs)

 

had Trippier not made that mistake in stoppage time at Chelsea  we'd have one foot in a LC final

 

(or had the ref sent of Caicedo at least, or penalties had gone the other way)

 

don't think anyone would be questioning Howe had those finest of margins gone the other way 

 

not to mention all the fucking freak injuries this season and Tonali suspension which has limited him so much in terms of team selection 

 

Totally. Although, as I've said before, we did have fantastic luck with injuries last season, also - they were always spread around the positions, avoiding vital players, with players timing their recoveries perfectly to cover others e.g. Wilson and Isak, Almiron and Murphy. That could've been a very different season too.

[Lush Vlad]

7 minutes ago, Erikse said:

 

We're experiencing fatigue in a tight schedule, but let's try to maximize the next couple of games anyways. We may or may not win those, and then we will look like a Championship side for the next 5 games after that, gradually becoming worse and worse.

 

Does this sound better?

Chuck the reserves to the wolves. That will more than likely result in a humiliating defeat. Bringing more pressure on the coaching team, fucking off a load of fans who have paid their money in the process for practically forfeiting a game. Then killing any chance at momentum and crushing the confidence of these young players at the same time.  All So that we might or might not get a result in the next game or two. Instead of trying to win the next one in front of you. 
 

Seems a sensible call. I’m shocked that Howe didn’t go for that, TBH. 

[MrRaspberryJam]

7 minutes ago, 80 said:

Totally. Although, as I've said before, we did have fantastic luck with injuries last season, also - they were always spread around the positions, avoiding vital players, with players timing their recoveries perfectly to cover others e.g. Wilson and Isak, Almiron and Murphy. That could've been a very different season too.

not playing in the CL probably had a big say in that. Guess we’ll find out next season

[The Prophet]

15 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

IMO you try to rotate in 3 scenarios:

(1) where you think you will win comfortably - Crystal Palace (H) for example. But for us.. these games are rare. Didn't take those few occasions. 

(2) when you are up by a wide margin early - this is the least beneficial type of resting IMO but Howe doesn't do this much either - Sheff U away for example.

(3) On a congested fixture list, you just pick 1 to rotate - 4 games in 14 days, pick 1 to rotate players. We didn't do that either.

 

All the teams that compete in the CL group stages need to rotate. The elite teams can rest players in 1 or 2 CL games. The rest have to rest players in domestic cup competitions and the league IMO. When it was easier to do it, Howe didn't. When it was harder to do it, Howe didn't do it.

 

If not for Burn's injury - we probably don't see much of Livra. The entire approach to rotation is wrong IMO. And there's history - here and at Bournemouth. So I can't cut Eddie as much slack as others are willing. There's too much evidence that he's a co-conspirator in this crisis.

 

And tbh - I think Klopp is similar (but more willing to rotate still). Hence why Liverpool have feast seasons and some really ropey ones. I hope this is a ropey one for Howe. But the rotation, fatigue thing is an area of weakness. Not just something that has happened through bad luck alone.

 

Yes finally we acknowledge he is a fallible human being who can make bad decisions. You are right - he is not perfect. Nobody else in this conversation is suggesting he's replaced though.

 

A lot of fair points there.

 

I'd be interested to read the evidence highlighting his contribution to this particular injury crisis.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

IMO you try to rotate in 3 scenarios:

(1) where you think you will win comfortably - Crystal Palace (H) for example. But for us.. these games are rare. Didn't take those few occasions. 

(2) when you are up by a wide margin early - this is the least beneficial type of resting IMO but Howe doesn't do this much either - Sheff U away for example.

(3) On a congested fixture list, you just pick 1 to rotate - 4 games in 14 days, pick 1 to rotate players. We didn't do that either.

 

All the teams that compete in the CL group stages need to rotate. The elite teams can rest players in 1 or 2 CL games. The rest have to rest players in domestic cup competitions and the league IMO. When it was easier to do it, Howe didn't. When it was harder to do it, Howe didn't do it.

 

If not for Burn's injury - we probably don't see much of Livra. The entire approach to rotation is wrong IMO. And there's history - here and at Bournemouth. So I can't cut Eddie as much slack as others are willing. There's too much evidence that he's a co-conspirator in this crisis.

 

And tbh - I think Klopp is similar (but more willing to rotate still). Hence why Liverpool have feast seasons and some really ropey ones. I hope this is a ropey one for Howe. But the rotation, fatigue thing is an area of weakness. Not just something that has happened through bad luck alone.

 

Yes finally we acknowledge he is a fallible human being who can make bad decisions. You are right - he is not perfect. Nobody else in this conversation is suggesting he's replaced though.

 

I don't get why some people (including yourself) are so boringly and vigorously focussed on the negatives though. 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2024 by Optimistic Nut

[MrRaspberryJam]

Just now, Optimistic Nut said:

 

I don't get why some people (including yourself) or so boringly and vigorously focussed on the negatives though. 

He should have given you the good news first

[Lotus]

5 hours ago, 80 said:

Out of respect to my opponents, this is harsh

 

 

 

I agree. That’s a step too far ?

I apologise!

[TheBrownBottle]

8 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

 

Me and others have been saying he should do this for months. I said it regarding the Man U league cup game and thought he should've rotated before that as well.

Yep, I remember we had this discussion at the time - I felt that I’d rather play reserves in league match to increase chances of cup success, you held the opposite view - but we were both agreed that a complete swap out was necessary 

[Vinny Green Balls]

8 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

IMO you try to rotate in 3 scenarios:

(1) where you think you will win comfortably - Crystal Palace (H) for example. But for us.. these games are rare. Didn't take those few occasions. 

(2) when you are up by a wide margin early - this is the least beneficial type of resting IMO but Howe doesn't do this much either - Sheff U away for example.

(3) On a congested fixture list, you just pick 1 to rotate - 4 games in 14 days, pick 1 to rotate players. We didn't do that either.

 

All the teams that compete in the CL group stages need to rotate. The elite teams can rest players in 1 or 2 CL games. The rest have to rest players in domestic cup competitions and the league IMO. When it was easier to do it, Howe didn't. When it was harder to do it, Howe didn't do it.

 

If not for Burn's injury - we probably don't see much of Livra. The entire approach to rotation is wrong IMO. And there's history - here and at Bournemouth. So I can't cut Eddie as much slack as others are willing. There's too much evidence that he's a co-conspirator in this crisis.

 

And tbh - I think Klopp is similar (but more willing to rotate still). Hence why Liverpool have feast seasons and some really ropey ones. I hope this is a ropey one for Howe. But the rotation, fatigue thing is an area of weakness. Not just something that has happened through bad luck alone.

 

Yes finally we acknowledge he is a fallible human being who can make bad decisions. You are right - he is not perfect. Nobody else in this conversation is suggesting he's replaced though.

That’s because you are being pretty reasonable. Once again, There are a few on here who have a long history of being wildly reactionary when we hit a bad patch, and then they pretend as if nothing happened. 

 

I think you raise good points, but then again, you  aren’t discussing the merits of Mourinho coming in.

[Zero]

I don’t think anyone here would say Jose is a better fit for Newcastle. I am Jose fans but I don’t think we are prepared for a short term win at this moment manager yet. We are still building our foundation as a top 4 contender.

 

But Jose is a realistic appointment if Howe is fired. That’s not something we want, but that would probably be the “most sensible” choice by the management. Not that we would agree with that logic behind, just like firing Howe now is not a sensible decision, but we all know it’s becoming a real possibility. 

[Away Toon]

Mourinho would bring horrible football and the never ending just escalating Jose circus. However if we finish the season badly and Howe remains incapable of rotating and continues to be tactically inflexible we could well end up with him as our next manager, unless we can tempt a De Zerbi or Alonso.

 

The only upside is Jose just might win us a cup before it all goes to the dogs, it’s the kind of thing he does.

[Vinny Green Balls]

 It's on me for mentioning him again.

[Groundhog63]

3 hours ago, Away Toon said:

Mourinho would bring horrible football and the never ending just escalating Jose circus. However if we finish the season badly and Howe remains incapable of rotating and continues to be tactically inflexible we could well end up with him as our next manager, unless we can tempt a De Zerbi or Alonso.

 

The only upside is Jose just might win us a cup before it all goes to the dogs, it’s the kind of thing he does.

 

Utter garbage

[catlover24]

5 hours ago, Away Toon said:

Mourinho would bring horrible football and the never ending just escalating Jose circus. However if we finish the season badly and Howe remains incapable of rotating and continues to be tactically inflexible we could well end up with him as our next manager, unless we can tempt a De Zerbi or Alonso.

 

The only upside is Jose just might win us a cup before it all goes to the dogs, it’s the kind of thing he does.

De Zerbi is annoying overrated garbage.

[Away Toon]

6 hours ago, Groundhog63 said:

 

Utter garbage

Your opinion is to be respected your contribution to the discussion not so much.

[Away Toon]

4 hours ago, catlover24 said:

De Zerbi is annoying overrated garbage.

Your opinion is to be respected your contribution to the discussion not so much.

[Away Toon]

Honestly what's the point of posting on a discussion forum if you are not prepared to discuss?

[Vinny Green Balls]

On the flip side, what’s the point in posting on a forum if you are unprepared for pushback?

[Away Toon]

6 hours ago, Vinny Green Balls said:

On the flip side, what’s the point in posting on a forum if you are unprepared for pushback?

That hardly classifies as pushback, it's just posters not capable of entering into a discussion with someone with contrasting views to their own.  Maybe it's just a lack of  intellectual capacity .

[Vinny Green Balls]

5 hours ago, Away Toon said:

That hardly classifies as pushback, it's just posters not capable of entering into a discussion with someone with contrasting views to their own.  Maybe it's just a lack of  intellectual capacity .

I suspect that if he said that the opinion was garbage and then explained in detail why, you would still find some self victimizing angle 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2024 by Vinny Green Balls