Eddie Howe

[KaKa]

3 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Famously saved by winning the FA Cup when they finished 13th, of course - no small feat, to which he added English football’s first European trophy post-Heysel the season after, again an impressive feat for an English club at the time.

 

Ferguson also had an extraordinary track record at Aberdeen, so he did have something to point to in terms of quantifiable success - no-one outside the Old Firm has come close since in Scotland, and no Scottish club has won a European trophy post-Ferguson (and Aberdeen beating Real Madrid in a European final was a genuinely impressive achievement). 

 

Regardless of his achievements at Aberdeen, finishing bottom half three times in those early years at Man Utd who were spending money at the time and were nowhere near anything like what we had become under Mike Ashley, would not have been tolerated nowadays. No chance. 

 

He would have been deemed 'not elite' and sent back to Scotland.

[SUPERTOON]

38 minutes ago, gjohnson said:

That has to be a yes. Probably pushing a title challenge till the last few games. Yes EH is good, but he seems to be a bit slow on picking up obvious errors this season...especially with to Burn who every other team seems to have sussed as the weakest link. Yes we've had injuries, but a large amount of points lost have come down to farcical errors from players who weren't making them last year. When we have brought others in they play like strangers, which suggests a certain amount of favouritism in the squad in that the 'not first 11' don't have a clue how to join in properly with any routines we presumably work on in training

You can’t honestly believe any manager would have had us going for the title last season ?

[The College Dropout]

34 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

We don’t know if Howe will become an ‘elite’ manager or not - we can hope he will, and there are a lot of positive signs that he can, as well as some negative signs that he won’t.  The point seems moot to me until he joins that bracket - and we’re the best chance he’s likely to get of breaking into it.

 

He could well ‘grow’ with the club, so I totally understand fans being attracted to that as a notion.  I honestly don’t care too much either way - if Howe is here in five years’ time, it’s because he’s successful and won things.  If he isn’t, it’s because he wasn’t.  I just want to see us win things, and I don’t really care about the narrative around it.  My dad is 70 soon and he was a boy when we last won a trophy, and wasn’t born when we last won a domestic one.  That’s a ridiculous state of affairs, frankly - Howe has the chance at the moment to write himself into our history books forever (the manager who breaks the duck will always be remembered, whatever follows it).  I hope he takes it - I do like him as a person and as a football man.  If he doesn’t, he doesn’t. 

I agree with all of this. I think it warps people's perspectives of what is happening when you assume Howe is the next Klopp and don't entertain the idea that he might be closer to the next Brendan Rodgers (a manager with a great career I would add).

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

Regardless of his achievements at Aberdeen, finishing bottom half three times in those early years at Man Utd who were spending money at the time and were nowhere near anything like what we had become under Mike Ashley, would not have been tolerated nowadays. No chance. 

 

He would have been deemed 'not elite' and sent back to Scotland.

You’re right, he definitely wouldn’t have survived in the present either - and he wouldn’t deserve to in the present era.

 

But there wasn’t a great gulf in quality between England and Scotland in football terms in the ‘80s and early ‘90s.  It wasn’t a great ‘step-up’.  They were major achievements to do what he did with Aberdeen.  Most football fans in the UK back then were as aware of Scottish football as they were English football.  Having a track record of winning major trophies as he had at Aberdeen absolutely bought him time - as did the common knowledge that Man Utd’s squad were a bunch of pissheads.  Winning the Scottish League wouldn’t buy you time today. 

[STM]

I think the biggest mistake is assuming he has to be like anyone.

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

I agree with all of this. I think it warps people's perspectives of what is happening when you assume Howe is the next Klopp and don't entertain the idea that he might be closer to the next Brendan Rodgers (a manager with a great career I would add).

Yeah, it could be either, couldn’t it.  I think Howe is clearly an excellent manager - no idea if he’ll be able to take the next step.  Happy for him to get some more time to show if he can. 

[TheBrownBottle]

8 minutes ago, SUPERTOON said:

 

Not sure who the source or hack behind the story is - very annoying when they don’t just link to the article.

 

I mean, there could be some truth in it, in terms of the club would be ridiculously naive and ill-prepared if it didn’t have an ongoing shortlist of replacements for all positions at the club.  That doesn’t mean Howe is on the verge of the sack. 

[jack j]

43 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

We don’t know if Howe will become an ‘elite’ manager or not - we can hope he will, and there are a lot of positive signs that he can, as well as some negative signs that he won’t.  The point seems moot to me until he joins that bracket - and we’re the best chance he’s likely to get of breaking into it.

 

He could well ‘grow’ with the club, so I totally understand fans being attracted to that as a notion.  I honestly don’t care too much either way - if Howe is here in five years’ time, it’s because he’s successful and won things.  If he isn’t, it’s because he wasn’t.  I just want to see us win things, and I don’t really care about the narrative around it.  My dad is 70 soon and he was a boy when we last won a trophy, and wasn’t born when we last won a domestic one.  That’s a ridiculous state of affairs, frankly - Howe has the chance at the moment to write himself into our history books forever (the manager who breaks the duck will always be remembered, whatever follows it).  I hope he takes it - I do like him as a person and as a football man.  If he doesn’t, he doesn’t. 

From a personal point of view I'd like to win a trophy with a likeable and relatable bloke like Eddie howe rather than some arsehole like ten haag

 

I never get the whole players and managers come and go thing.

I'm attached more to certain players and managers than a badge

 

Mebbes that's just me

[Fezzle]

11 minutes ago, SUPERTOON said:

 

That was rubbished nearly 24 hours ago

[The College Dropout]

4 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Regardless of his achievements at Aberdeen, finishing bottom half three times in those early years at Man Utd who were spending money at the time and were nowhere near anything like what we had become under Mike Ashley, would not have been tolerated nowadays. No chance. 

 

He would have been deemed 'not elite' and sent back to Scotland.

You can't. His achievements at Aberdeen were akin to what Klopp achieved at Dortmund, what Mourinho did at Porto, what Rafa dad Valencia. Maybe greater. It marked him as likely the best British manager of his generation and all the top clubs in England wanted him.

 

Without the proven and sustained track record of success at the elite level at Aberdeen, Ferguson gets sacked at Man Utd. But he had pedigree at the highest level.

 

And this is a 40-year-old example. No manager will be given that time again and Howe certainly won't. But managers with proven track-records will continue to get more leeway than those that don't. For obvious reasons.

[SUPERTOON]

1 minute ago, Fezzle said:

That was rubbished nearly 24 hours ago

By the same source who are reporting we are interested ? how bad is football journalism.

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, jack j said:

From a personal point of view I'd like to win a trophy with a likeable and relatable bloke like Eddie howe rather than some arsehole like ten haag

 

I never get the whole players and managers come and go thing.

I'm attached more to certain players and managers than a badge

 

Mebbes that's just me

I don’t think it’s an invalid position to hold mate - honestly, some will take your view re attachment to players / managers and some might be more in line with my view.  Just the way these things normally work - I think they’re both defensible and normal positions to hold.  I think your view is completely relatable - but for me, the badge is all that really matters. 

[KaKa]

3 minutes ago, STM said:

I think the biggest mistake is assuming he has to be like anyone.

 

Yeah, exactly, and so can we at least see how he responds next season to get a much clearer idea? Why anyone is nitpicking over every little thing and coming with these suggestions he's not up to it is really beyond me.

 

Even 'elite' Klopp, as good as he is and as proven, was still making similar mistakes just last season.

[Fezzle]

1 minute ago, SUPERTOON said:

By the same source who are reporting we are interested ? how bad is football journalism.

Its yesterdays source rehashed by that transfer knacka isnt it? Sport Bild made up the original rumour but aye its a ridiculous profession where you can invent any old shite and get paid Yet it still has loads on here and social media frothing at the links daily

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

56 minutes ago, gjohnson said:

That has to be a yes. Probably pushing a title challenge till the last few games. Yes EH is good, but he seems to be a bit slow on picking up obvious errors this season...especially with to Burn who every other team seems to have sussed as the weakest link. Yes we've had injuries, but a large amount of points lost have come down to farcical errors from players who weren't making them last year. When we have brought others in they play like strangers, which suggests a certain amount of favouritism in the squad in that the 'not first 11' don't have a clue how to join in properly with any routines we presumably work on in training

Yet he couldn’t do it with Liverpool? 

 

Im being flippant.

[KaKa]

3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

You can't. His achievements at Aberdeen were akin to what Klopp achieved at Dortmund, what Mourinho did at Porto, what Rafa dad Valencia. Maybe greater. It marked him as likely the best British manager of his generation and all the top clubs in England wanted him.

 

Without the proven and sustained track record of success at the elite level at Aberdeen, Ferguson gets sacked at Man Utd. But he had pedigree at the highest level.

 

And this is a 40-year-old example. No manager will be given that time again and Howe certainly won't. But managers with proven track-records will continue to get more leeway than those that don't. For obvious reasons.

 

Ultimately, for Ferguson to achieve what he did at Man Utd, a level of patience was needed as even back then he was lucky to survive despite his achievements at Aberdeen. Three seasons in the bottom half of the league out of his first six at Man Utd, even back then was a lot to overlook. Kudos to them.

 

Eddie Howe's work here has been exemplary so far, and three or so poor months and enough is enough for some folks. That is an incredible level of impatience and short sightedness. I just don't get it.

[The College Dropout]

9 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Yeah, it could be either, couldn’t it.  I think Howe is clearly an excellent manager - no idea if he’ll be able to take the next step.  Happy for him to get some more time to show if he can. 

Agreed.

 

I think we are both less emotionally attached to Howe than most on here.

[The Prophet]

48 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Why would he have been sacked or hounded it? He took a club that finished 13th the previous season and 9th the year before to 6th, 5th, league winners, then league and cup double and a CL final. That's 4 years of straight progression.

 

The Klopp comparison doesn't work. They do not have the same career or track record (they have similarities in coaching style).

 

 

The context being they'd broke into the Champions League spots, but fell away late in the season with a few poor results.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong to say there are similarities between the two:

 

Both made their name with a "smaller" club, saving them from the brink, taking them to the first tier and then eventually succumbing to relegation. 

 

Both put a lot of stock in the personality of their signings and have been criticised for it.

 

Both have similar styles of play, which requires high intensity and can lead to fatigue without the ability to rotate.

 

Again to emphasise, I'm not saying Howe is as good as Klopp or ever will be, I simply don't know. But Klopp did not not have a linear path to success and took time to develop his trade through trial and error.

 

Klopp would not have been considered "elite" in English football until his third season at Dortmund, simply because we're more results oriented. There's a  downsides to slapping neat labels on everything or having a pathological need to allocate blame at every turn.

 

 

Edited February 29 by The Prophet

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

Ultimately, for Ferguson to achieve what he did at Man Utd, a level of patience was needed as even back then he was lucky to survive despite his achievements at Aberdeen. Three seasons in the bottom half of the league out of his first six at Man Utd, even back then was a lot to overlook. Kudos to them.

 

Eddie Howe's work here has been exemplary so far, and three or so poor months and enough is enough for some folks. That is an incredible level of impatience and short sightedness. I just don't get it.

Who doesn't want to give Howe time?

 

Not anyone in the last few pages. 

[KaKa]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

Who doesn't want to give Howe time?

 

Not anyone in the last few pages. 

 

Dr. jinx and a few of his mates that were cosigning after the Blackburn game.

 

Apparently on what was formerly twitter, this sentiment is even more widespread and common.

 

It's unfortunate really.

[The College Dropout]

@The Prophet Klopp improved the final league position with Dortmund every season until winning the league. We are headed towards a substantial regression. That's a major difference. 

 

Howe's tenure is closer to Arteta's. But that first-full season was genuinely bad. He was deservedly under pressure and they were right to question him and his ability. I suspect Howe will be allowed to turn it around much like Arteta too.

[GEFAFWISP]

4 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

The context being they'd broke into the Champions League spots, but fell away late in the season with a few poor results.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong to say there are similarities between the two:

 

Both made their name with a "smaller" club, saving them from the brink, taking them to the first tier and then eventually succumbing to relegation. 

 

Both put a lot of stock in the personality of their signings and have been criticised for it.

 

Both have similar styles of play, which requires high intensity and can lead to fatigue without the ability to rotate.

 

Again to emphasise, I'm not saying Howe is as good as Klopp or ever will be, I simply don't know. But Klopp did not not have a linear path to success and took time to develop his trade through trial and error.

 

Klopp would not have been considered "elite" in English football until his third season at Dortmund, simply because we're more results oriented. There's downsides to slapping neat labels on everything or having a pathological need to allocate blame at every turn.

 

This 100%, though it does drive debate in threads like these, relentlessly, endlessly, over and over the same points...make it stop!

[The College Dropout]

7 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Dr. jinx and a few of his mates that were cosigning after the Blackburn game.

 

Apparently on what was formerly twitter, this sentiment is even more widespread and common.

 

It's unfortunate really.

Fair enough. You didn't quote any of those people in your recent run of posts. The discussion is about our manager's pedigree and where people have him ranked vs other managers. But fair enough we are talking about different things and people.

 

I agree - a lot of notable people on Twitter are Howe-out and that doesn't make sense to me at all. I don't even really believe it.  I think it's engagement baiting. That Rob M is one of them.

 

 

Edited February 29 by The College Dropout

[The Prophet]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

@The Prophet Klopp improved the final league position with Dortmund every season until winning the league. We are headed towards a substantial regression. That's a major difference. 

 

Howe's tenure is closer to Arteta's. But that first-full season was genuinely bad. He was deservedly under pressure and they were right to question him and his ability. I suspect Howe will be allowed to turn it around much like Arteta too.

 

Correct, but it's ignoring absolutely all of the context surrounding the Dortmund season I discussed and our present season.

[SUPERTOON]

Personally don’t think what Howe did in his first 18 months or so here can be compared to anyone else tbh. It genuinely was a miracle from him to take us from were we where to the top 4 in that time period.

Not just in terms of league position either, but he pretty much implemented a complete change of style of play in one pre season. Genuinely don’t think any other manager would have done the same.

 

 

Edited February 29 by SUPERTOON