Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability

[leffe186]

5 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

More Newcastle fans then you think will agree with your position.

 

I don't think anyone is asking for us to be given carte blanche to do as we please, but a more equitable system that doesn't continue to pull the ladder up needs to be found. Whether that looks like a wage or spending cap, who knows.

Don’t get me wrong, I realize lots of Newcastle fans will agree. Some Man City and Chelsea fans agreed, though they have long since disappeared from the scene or assimilated. I just got a bit wound up by the specific rhetoric in that post I think.

 

Edit: Actually I very much do think that some people want carte blanche because I think some have said so elsewhere in this forum. Born of frustration no doubt, but I  think it’s there.

 

 

Edited January 15 by leffe186

[Elliottman]

When did these rules come into play? I thought FFP had been around for years but just seems like last year or so it's properly booting off?! 

[Dokko]

34 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

Really? Differently frustrating, certainly. I thought the Ashley regime was completely disastrous and frustrating because we all knew the potential, and so many years were wasted.

 

Now imagine how frustrating it is to come up against this ceiling 15 years ago after seeing two teams get bought by oil money and having untold millions of it spunked on them, overnight creating a Big 4 and then a Big 5. Then you knuckle down and grind your way through that ceiling inexorably over 15-20 years. Then another team gets bought by oil money and you see their fans saying they’ve had enough of it after one-and-a-half seasons.

 

I get it. It’s annoying that you can’t just throw money at it, like Chelsea and Man City did. It’s annoying Man U and Arsenal right now that they can’t just throw money at their problems too. For argument’s sake, Arsenal would love to give you £100M for Isak. Man U would love to give you £100M for Bruno Guimaraes. They’re not allowed to.
 

I know this isn’t the place for this argument right now - feelings are high, and I’m going to get an unsympathetic response. P&S is obviously flawed, but I don’t think it’s completely without merit.

 

It’s just hard to see you say it “needs to go in the next couple of years or I’m checking out”, and I hope you understand why. I nearly walked away from football when Abramovich came in, not because we couldn’t spend anything we liked on players but because he was a Russian oligarch and he could and did, and it all felt wrong to me. I nearly threw my toys out of the pram because a rival team did that. You’re about to throw your toys out of the pram because you can’t. I hope you can see how that’s a little frustrating to hear.

 

You nearly walked away as your team was at a disadvantage and have a go at me for having enough of seeing others gain advantage due to who they are. They even tried to block us loaning players from Saudi, this is what we're up against.

 

Your team is part of the problem. A team never in position to really compete trying to make sure other teams can't take your position. Actually you're worse than the others as you bring fuck all go the top 6 table try act like you own the joint. 

[Shearergol]

7 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

Don’t get me wrong, I realize lots of Newcastle fans will agree. Some Man City and Chelsea fans agreed, though they have long since disappeared from the scene or assimilated. I just got a bit wound up by the specific rhetoric in that post I think.

 

Edit: Actually I very much do think that some people want carte blanche because I think some have said so elsewhere in this forum. Born of frustration no doubt, but I  think it’s there.

 

 

 

I’m a massive hypocrite but I want us to spend billions and win everything, mainly because it’s been shit being a Newcastle fan for fucking ages. Now it’s shit because we’re so fucking close and there’s a massive brick wall up in front of the opposition goal.

[bobbydazzla]

13 minutes ago, Elliottman said:

When did these rules come into play? I thought FFP had been around for years but just seems like last year or so it's properly booting off?! 

They brought the rules in a decade ago but haven’t updated them to reflect massive inflation, that’s a fundamental flaw 

 

And you’ve also got clubs who are now in a position to challenge the cartel by spending on elite players and wages but are being held back by FPP, so it’s even more apparent that it’s a system designed to protect the 6 clubs that were already wealthy and successful

 

And Chelsea have helped expose the sham even further by spending billions willy-nilly, which further emphasised that 6 clubs are being given permission to have a huge financial advantage over everyone else 

 

 

Edited January 15 by bobbydazzla

[gbandit]

I’d prefer us to rise playing by their rules in all honesty. It’ll be all the sweeter. I’d love success but I don’t want it above all else. If we could buy Mbappe and Musiala, would I want us to? Sure, but it would feel a bit cheap winning something straight away. I have no issue with us arriving in the next five years. If these barriers meant we weren’t progressing after five years then I’d feel very differently though 

[Dokko]

Leffe, your take absolutely stinks of self preservation. It's actually quite funny you're trying to pass it off as anything else. You'd be the biggest loser if ffp ceased to exist. You'd be a mid table club not just the top 6 support act, and that scares you. I get it, but don't act like it's anything to do with footballing morals.

 

[Dokko]

1 minute ago, gbandit said:

I’d prefer us to rise playing by their rules in all honesty. It’ll be all the sweeter. I’d love success but I don’t want it above all else. If we could buy Mbappe and Musiala, would I want us to? Sure, but it would feel a bit cheap winning something straight away. I have no issue with us arriving in the next five years. If these barriers meant we weren’t progressing after five years then I’d feel very differently though 

 

Thryll judt find new ways to clip our wings. You can wait 5 years to find that out but I'm letting you know right now that's coming unless the 14 other clubs start protesting in the courts.

[Shearergol]

3 minutes ago, gbandit said:

I’d prefer us to rise playing by their rules in all honesty. It’ll be all the sweeter. I’d love success but I don’t want it above all else. If we could buy Mbappe and Musiala, would I want us to? Sure, but it would feel a bit cheap winning something straight away. I have no issue with us arriving in the next five years. If these barriers meant we weren’t progressing after five years then I’d feel very differently though 

Impossible to get there, regardless of how long we take. Big clubs will get bigger, unopposed 

 

 

Edited January 15 by Shearergol

[gbandit]

Leffe’s a very even handed person. I think he’s spoken fairly in all honesty and I don’t see it purely as self-preservation. I think it’s fair enough if our fans are angry about 14 nightmarish years which are then followed by being financially hamstrung for the first time in football’s 140-150 years but I don’t think we have anything to worry about. It’s much shitter for almost every other club outside the top six

[Shearergol]

2 minutes ago, gbandit said:

Leffe’s a very even handed person. I think he’s spoken fairly in all honesty and I don’t see it purely as self-preservation. I think it’s fair enough if our fans are angry about 14 nightmarish years which are then followed by being financially hamstrung for the first time in football’s 140-150 years but I don’t think we have anything to worry about. It’s much shitter for almost every other club outside the top six

I don’t disagree, but being 7th least shit is not what I want. 

[gbandit]

I disagree, obviously we’re all making predictions here but I think Chelsea and Man City will face proper sanctions within the next three years. I think our infrastructure and our commercial revenue will continue to grow massively. We already have many of the pieces in place. The stadium is a question mark long term. It’s just about building. These other clubs might try to put up as many barriers as they can but it’s not going to count for shit as time goes on 

[Dokko]

2 minutes ago, gbandit said:

Leffe’s a very even handed person. I think he’s spoken fairly in all honesty and I don’t see it purely as self-preservation. I think it’s fair enough if our fans are angry about 14 nightmarish years which are then followed by being financially hamstrung for the first time in football’s 140-150 years but I don’t think we have anything to worry about. It’s much shitter for almost every other club outside the top six

 

I'm not doubting him as a person, but his view is massively tainted by his clubs position, mine also, however I'm OK to admit that. 

[leffe186]

Just now, Dokko said:

 

You nearly walked away as your team was at a disadvantage and have a go at me for having enough of seeing others gain advantage due to who they are. They even tried to block us loaning players from Saudi, this is what we're up against.

 

Your team is part of the problem. A team never in position to really compete trying to make sure other teams can't take your position. Actually you're worse than the others as you bring fuck all go the top 6 table try act like you own the joint. 

No, I nearly walked away because it felt really wrong to me: that the game had crossed a line with Abramovich and his spending. We had been at a disadvantage relative to the top three or four for years. Did you see us in the 90s?
 

If you were cool with Abramovich then fair enough. I hated it.

Yeah, F&S has definitely evolved to be a way of preserving the status quo - the cartel. That’s a problem. We’ve made ourselves part of that problem. I agree with you that we were never in a position to really compete. Why do you think that is?

 

[Shearergol]

Just now, gbandit said:

I disagree, obviously we’re all making predictions here but I think Chelsea and Man City will face proper sanctions within the next three years. I think our infrastructure and our commercial revenue will continue to grow massively. We already have many of the pieces in place. The stadium is a question mark long term. It’s just about building. These other clubs might try to put up as many barriers as they can but it’s not going to count for shit as time goes on 

We’re looking at 10 years before we get to start selling our academy players for stupid numbers. Every year that goes we fall another year behind. We might get lucky and do a Leicester, but with the current restrictions there’s zero chance we become genuine league challengers every year for years.

[Dokko]

5 minutes ago, Shearergol said:

Impossible to get there, regardless of how long we take. Big clubs will get bigger, unopposed 

 

 

 

 

And this is it. We can go slow and close this gap. Unfortunately by the time we get there they have already done 3 laps. Game is rigged. No point in playing a rigged game.

[Dokko]

Leicester win the league and the top 6 response was ESL. ? 

[gbandit]

We got top four last season and we’d be there again or at least top five if we’d not had Europe and a broken squad to contend with. Villa will make it this season. Brighton aren’t far off either. The league is changing. A few years of the “top six” dropping out of the champions league and it could all turn extremely quickly 

[Isaksbigrightfoot]

3 hours ago, MagMal said:

This is getting worse and worse for the Premier league and the Cartel clubs, there is going to have to be some kind of independent review of FFP as they are all just looking more corrupt by the day.

 

The more I look at it the more our guys have played a blinder by rigidly sticking to the rules, that in itself has got all the talk about the richest club in the world that the media stirred up and the fact we can't spend is becoming more and more in focus for everyone and when historic clubs like Forrest and Everton are suffering, yes their own fault for spending poorly, it has got to be better for everyone.

 

Bring on the independent regulators.

 

 

 

Yes in some respects they (the big 6) have put the motions in place to stop our kind of rebellion.

 

And we are literally sticking to the rules.

 

While Everton and to a lesser extent Forest are getting shafted which I don’t agree with. They are getting royally done over by rules put in place by the big six after the profiteering they created to essentially ring fence their dominance.

 

Its wrong.

[TheBrownBottle]

7 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

No, I nearly walked away because it felt really wrong to me: that the game had crossed a line with Abramovich and his spending. We had been at a disadvantage relative to the top three or four for years. Did you see us in the 90s?
 

If you were cool with Abramovich then fair enough. I hated it.

Yeah, F&S has definitely evolved to be a way of preserving the status quo - the cartel. That’s a problem. We’ve made ourselves part of that problem. I agree with you that we were never in a position to really compete. Why do you think that is?

 

Abramovich’s Chelsea hurt NUFC far more than Spurs.  We were the ones competing with Liverpool, Leeds and Chelsea for the other CL places etc.  No-one thought of Spurs as a top club in the early ‘00s. 

[Isaksbigrightfoot]

21 minutes ago, Shearergol said:

I’m a massive hypocrite but I want us to spend billions and win everything, mainly because it’s been shit being a Newcastle fan for fucking ages. Now it’s shit because we’re so fucking close and there’s a massive brick wall up in front of the opposition goal.

The rules where designed to restrict competition and growth.

 

Then when the PL couldn’t stop our takeover they introduced this PL review over commercial deals even though they have been exploiting them for decades.

 

It was ok when we had Ashley shafting us.

 

But now we have an owner who could do serious damage to the status quo.

 

Nope!

[Dokko]

3 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

No, I nearly walked away because it felt really wrong to me: that the game had crossed a line with Abramovich and his spending. We had been at a disadvantage relative to the top three or four for years. Did you see us in the 90s?
 

If you were cool with Abramovich then fair enough. I hated it.

Yeah, F&S has definitely evolved to be a way of preserving the status quo - the cartel. That’s a problem. We’ve made ourselves part of that problem. I agree with you that we were never in a position to really compete. Why do you think that is?

 

 

Levy knew it was better to be bottom of the top than be cast out like all the other teams and not having a say. 

 

All London clubs have an advantage, should we remove that somehow? All players must live in Jarrow...or must commute for 4 hours even if thry live 2 miles away (probably standard for London anyway) point is, all clubs will have something which gets them to the top. Fanbase, rich owners, history, established academy or location. Some of those you can never buy, some of those you need time and some now thanks to ffp, you'll never experience unless it's a 5000/1 once in a lifetime event.

[Dokko]

3 minutes ago, Isaksbigrightfoot said:

Yes in some respects they (the big 6) have put the motions in place to stop our kind of rebellion.

 

And we are literally sticking to the rules.

 

While Everton and to a lesser extent Forest are getting shafted which I don’t agree with. They are getting royally done over by rules put in place by the big six after the profiteering they created to essentially ring fence their dominance.

 

Its wrong.

 

Forest one is pathetic. Sell johnson to meet ffp by June for £30m or sell him at the end of the transfer window and get £45m and we'll do you for ffp. 

[Erikse]

1 hour ago, leffe186 said:

Really? Differently frustrating, certainly. I thought the Ashley regime was completely disastrous and frustrating because we all knew the potential, and so many years were wasted.

 

Now imagine how frustrating it is to come up against this ceiling 15 years ago after seeing two teams get bought by oil money and having untold millions of it spunked on them, overnight creating a Big 4 and then a Big 5. Then you knuckle down and grind your way through that ceiling inexorably over 15-20 years. Then another team gets bought by oil money and you see their fans saying they’ve had enough of it after one-and-a-half seasons.

 

I get it. It’s annoying that you can’t just throw money at it, like Chelsea and Man City did. It’s annoying Man U and Arsenal right now that they can’t just throw money at their problems too. For argument’s sake, Arsenal would love to give you £100M for Isak. Man U would love to give you £100M for Bruno Guimaraes. They’re not allowed to.
 

I know this isn’t the place for this argument right now - feelings are high, and I’m going to get an unsympathetic response. P&S is obviously flawed, but I don’t think it’s completely without merit.

 

It’s just hard to see you say it “needs to go in the next couple of years or I’m checking out”, and I hope you understand why. I nearly walked away from football when Abramovich came in, not because we couldn’t spend anything we liked on players but because he was a Russian oligarch and he could and did, and it all felt wrong to me. I nearly threw my toys out of the pram because a rival team did that. You’re about to throw your toys out of the pram because you can’t. I hope you can see how that’s a little frustrating to hear.

 

I would never scrap FFP, I also think that would be a bit wild at this point. But it could definetly be changed for the better. That doesn't happen if we pretend like the system is perfect right now. We are far from the only ones who are upset about the state of FFP. Just because we have very rich owners doesn't mean that we shouldn't be upset about it. Also - I'm pretty sure you lot are allowed to spend way more than any other team outside of Sky 6, and it has been like that for a while? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that your sponsor deals are still miles ahead of ours, and I think we are 7th in terms of sponsorship income.

 

 

Edited January 15 by Erikse

[Kilcline]

4 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Abramovich’s Chelsea hurt NUFC far more than Spurs.  We were the ones competing with Liverpool, Leeds and Chelsea for the other CL places etc.  No-one thought of Spurs as a top club in the early ‘00s. 

I've long thought Abramovich coming in isn't spoken about enough or considered as a factor as it should be when reflecting on our mid-2000s downturn. I genuinely felt like we were pretty close to if not disrupting the Man U/Arsenal duopoly then certainly establishing ourselves as a pretty clear 3rd.

 

Then Abramovich came in, Partizan Belgrade happened, we finished 5th the first season it was top 4 qualify (I think), and we know the rest...