Improving on a shoestring - Can it be done?

[Howaythelads]

Improving on a shoestring?

 

I’m pretty certain Roeder isn’t the right man for the job long term. My hopes from Roeder is simply stabilisation to the point we have a team that is an attractive enough proposition for the club to bring in another top manager at a time when sufficient cash is available for this man to attempt to build his team.

 

I know this is going to look like CM manager stuff  but I want to get away from the usual threads we see here and open up a new debate about this:

 

If the reality is that the club doesn’t have funds to almost completely rebuild the team how can a small improvement be achieved on a virtual shoestring? The improvement in the team has to be enough to attract a better manager than Roeder by convincing the football world that things are going pretty well on the field, that there is potential for improvement and that financial backing is available.

 

For me, I’m having pretty radical thoughts about this because:

1. I don’t rate Parker and really want us to sell him.

2. I’m strictly a 4-4-2 man and always have been.

3. I think we only have 2 decent strikers in Owen and Martins, so the top priority for me is another striker before defenders. I want us to get rid of Ameobi and Sibierski.

4. I’ve run out of patience with Bramble and would like to replace him too along with some others.

 

I’m now going to move away from all of that.

 

We’re mostly all agreed that there are weaknesses across all areas of the team, many people have said that we need almost half a team, myself included. However, splashing the cash on perhaps 5 players of the quality we want could be very dodgy if Macbeth is to be believed about £1m being lost every month. We want a football club to support and we don’t want to do a “Leeds” but we have to make progress. Bringing in this number of players of good quality would further increase the wages to turnover ratio even if we shift on some of the dross. The reality could be that this is a bad move, the club needs to get an improvement but without spending a great deal and without boosting the wage bill too much. So it’s a balancing act.

 

Are we putting square pegs into round holes by continuing with 4-4-2? Souness signed certain players to play in a narrow midfield so in the short term I think we may need to adjust the style and formation to get the best from certain individuals to achieve that small improvement.

 

The narrow midfield 3 idea imo is heavily dependant upon really good attacking fullbacks, it just won’t work without it. They must get forward providing the width and an attacking threat. So, instead of proposing we buy 5 players, I propose we sign just a quality LB and a quality CB.

 

This means:

Ameobi and Sibierski stay for now as 3rd / 4th strikers.

Parker stays for now.

Moore should be retained if possible.

 

This is where the CM bit comes in, it’s only on paper and may be bollocks. In the end, you need good enough players to make anything work and they just may not be good enough.

 

The team for me could be like this:

                      Given

Solano, Moore, New CB, New LB

              Parker, Butt

                    Emre

        Dyer,  Martins, Owen

 

The way I’d see this playing out would be both Butt and Parker protecting the back 4, covering the fullbacks who I would encourage to bomb on whenever possible. This to the extent I would discourage Butt/Parker both crossing the halfway line at the same time in general play.

 

I’d expect rotation and movement from Dyer, Owen and Martins. The first two I think would be ok with that but Martins would have a learning curve.

 

The problems I see are these:

1. Emre likes to drop deep and collect the ball from the CB’s. He’d have to play 10 yards further up the field most of the time and receive the ball further up, but he is dangerous there.

2. The poor passing ability of Parker. However, we know Solano can pass, I’d expect the new LB and CB to be able to pass and so can Butt despite what people say, so it may still work.

 

To finish off, if the club has funds I’d prefer to get shot of a number of players and stick with 4-4-2, but that opens up the question of whether or not Roeder should be binned in the summer. It could be hard to attract a top manager given the shambolic displays we’ve seen this season and impossible if the club doesn’t have enough money to spend.

 

What I’ve done here is look at the players we currently have, try to fit them into roles I think suit them best and then look at where the limitations are suggesting new players for just those positions. LB and CB. If we stick with 4-4-2 I think we do need half a team to be effective.

 

I hope this makes sense even to those who disagree.

 

 

[Mowen]

I can see where you're going with the idea: I think this plan could be worked with two 'wingers' at fullback. It might take some drilling but Duff has been acceptable at LB and would certainly give us more going forward than anyone else we have at the moment. Similarly, I think N'Zogbia could be drilled to play this role, almost as a wing-back if Duff never hits top gear. This could leave us only needing a centre back, which could yet turn out to be Gooch, although I'm not sure about him by any means yet. We would only need to pick up re-inforcements for the time being, which means we could improve in the short term with minimal expenditure, theoretically.

 

My main problem with this is that I don't think Roeder has the nous or ability to properly drill a team to play this formation properly (I'd probably adapt it by playing Dyer in the role floating behind the strikers, but that's just my take on it); and even if we did we could expect a long transitional period whilst we adapted to the new formation, which would beg the question: are we better off sticking to 4-4-2 until we can afford to improve personnel?

 

Hard to draw a full conclusion as it's only theoretical, obviously, but some good points.

[Dave]

Interesting stuff.

 

The major problem I have with anything other than a 4-4-2 is that I just don't think the players are intelligent/disciplined enough to make it work. Too often we've tried new things and the players look like fish out of water until they get back to 4-4-2.

 

Like you say, perhaps it is possible if players are brought in specifically to work in this way, or the manager works that way from day one, but i'm less than convinced Roeder could get it going with our players.

[Guest Gemmill]

Makes perfect sense, and a good post.  I think our biggest problem with doing anything "on a shoestring" is the wage structure we've established at the club.  We are paying mediocre players tens of thousands of pounds more than they could get at any other Premiership club - literally tens of thousands of pounds per WEEK over market rate.

 

Until that is addressed - and it's going to take time to sort out - any player that we sign is either going to come in on that structure, or react with "Where's my £70k per week" when we're negotiating contracts.  To me the easiest way to address the imbalance is wait until renewal time for our current squad and just put a big pay-cut on the table in negotiations.  The players will be up in arms about it, but just be upfront with them - tell them they've been overpaid for several seasons now, and that if they want to leave they can do so.  But caution them against listening to their agent telling them that they can earn more elsewhere - tell them to have a word with Olivier Bernard about how that sort of thing works out.  Not many players leave NUFC for a payrise.  This would solve the problem of getting rid of a lot of the deadwood - Parker (who I don't think is deadwood) needs a huge paycut, as does Dyer.  If they won't accept it, then let them go elsewhere and let us free up £4m worth of wages p.a.

 

Sorry, I know this isn't specifically what you're talking about, but I think it covers the "on a shoestring" aspect of your post - wages are a huge issue, more so than available transfer funds (the former impacts the latter, clearly) and if we don't sort them out we are fucked in the short and long term.  Got an email off a lad I know who lives in Northumberland and drinks with an ex-NUFC player.  He didn't mention names, but says he's in his 50s and played with Roeder.  Anyway when we had our recent injury crisis he'd jokingly said to Roeder "I'll dust my boots off for £20k a week, Glenn", to which Roeder had responded "£20k a week?  You wouldn't even get in the reserves on that money."  And he was serious.  Needs sorting out big-time.

[Dave]

One thing that is clear though, the coaching staff are going to have to think laterally in this way if the funds are just not available (which seems likely to me). If they don't, we will continue to struggle.

[mrmojorisin75]

The idea has a lot of strengths for sure, my thoughts are as follows (including speculation):

 

There are options for sales that we don't have under a 4-4-2 system - for example we could let one of Duff/Dyer go and use the wages and/or fees on a specialist LB.

 

There's scope for using Charlie N'Zogbia in that system, either in the Emre role or futher up on the left.

 

It does present a problem for James Milner in that he is a winger, although it's possible he could also fit into the system with the strikers or just off them.  Don't know about that one for sure and I wouldn't want him to leave.

 

We'd need good cover at RB 'cause Solano would never last a season being asked to attack in the manner you describe.

I think the Butt/Parker position would also need some cover 'cause what you're aking them to do will earn injuries/suspensions for sure.

 

So assuming we have the usual club budget of 12-15m this summer and bring in a ST, CB, young RB, LB (perhaps using some Duff/Dyer cash) and a CM (perhaps Sidwell on a free as is rumoured) then I reckon it has legs aye.

 

I've assumed Carr/Babayaro/Bramble have been punted in all that, and I disagree about Moore, I'd let him go.

 

Does seem slighty tactically adept for Roedebot though!

 

[ianovthetoon]

Surely it would make a lot of sense spending some of the transfer budget on shipping out the current manager and bringing in someone else, because full backs aside, a lot of people would agree Roeder is a liability to this team.

[Guest Hibbits left foot]

Given

Solano Taylor CTRE HALF Edgar

Milner Sidwell Dyer Nzogbia

Martins Owen

 

RESERVES;

Harper Krul

Huntington Ramage Bernard

O Brien Pattinson Butt

STRIKER

 

 

Start on that basis , lose - Bramble Moore Parker Babayaro Emre Duff  Ameobi Sibierski Carr , as a means of getting the wage bill down so we can invest in the positions were its most needed.Most of all we need a balanced squad , any new striker has to be in the Ashton mode etc

We need change in order to generate cash but that change also needs to be minimal in terms of disruption to the team/squad.Ive only sketched a prognosis for next season - no doubt other changes would need to be made in later seasons.4-4-2 is the only game in town im afraid , lets face it theyve barely looked capable of that in recent times!

[Lotus]

Good thread.

Maybe an idea to swap Martins and Owen in your original line-up, i think the pace of Dyer and Martins hovering around the channels would worry a lot of opposition full backs into bombing forward regularly. That would be a problem otherwise, the other team has the width because of overlapping FB's.

I think making such a stiff midfield would encourage a team to play wide against as well. However if Dyer and Martins work reasonably hard it should help our cause.

I would also be a bit worried about Solano's legs going.

Theoretically Emre shouldn't get too isolated because one or two or the front 3 can drop a bit deeper to help him.

I think it sets us up as a good counter attacking side. Players would need to work hard but i think with Zoggy, Milner, Duff and Ameobi we would have options with substitutions that could keep the same shape.

I don't entirely agree with your personnel choice at the back but that's not really the point of the post, the system looks workable.

 

[madras]

sidwell and distin on free's and sell emre(if rumours are true)leaving the emre money plus whatever else we can scrape together for another centre half,left back and forward.

[Keefaz]

I think we 3 top players and we'll be looking much better: a genuine attacking CM in the mould of Scholes, Cahill, etc.: late arrivers in the box with good finishing but are also willing to work for the team; a top quality centre-half with the required organisational qualities; a good left-back, e.g. Bridge.

[Guest andynufc84]

I think we 3 top players and we'll be looking much better: a genuine attacking CM in the mould of Scholes, Cahill, etc.: late arrivers in the box with good finishing but are also willing to work for the team; a top quality centre-half with the required organisational qualities; a good left-back, e.g. Bridge.

 

I agree with this but I have absolutely no confidence or hope that its what we'll get.

 

Clubs like Bolton and Blackburn are able to improve on a shoestring as they have pretty astute managers who can see a decent player who will improve the team and fetch him in. Ben Haim, Benny McCarthy, David Bentley etc etc...

 

Can NUFC improve on a shoestring? The answer is no in my opinion because I feel the people who have the chance to get things right are totally incompetent

[buzza]

We need to buy a decent back line...no expense spared:

Distin, Brown, bridge, ben-haim

[Guest andynufc84]

Ben Haim coming here would be a step down for him, why leave a club who will be in Europe and are moving in the right direction to come here?

[Guest alex]

I'd sell Duff tbh (unless Roeder intends converting him to a left-back)as we have two players - N'Zogbia and Milner who can and have done a better job for us when they've played on the left of midfield. I'd use the money on a couple of defenders (left-back and centre-back) as a bare minimum.

[Guest alex]

Ben Haim coming here would be a step down for him, why leave a club who will be in Europe and are moving in the right direction to come here?

Wages. Think he'll be off to a better side than us though - on a Bosman.

[Keefaz]

I think we 3 top players and we'll be looking much better: a genuine attacking CM in the mould of Scholes, Cahill, etc.: late arrivers in the box with good finishing but are also willing to work for the team; a top quality centre-half with the required organisational qualities; a good left-back, e.g. Bridge.

 

I agree with this but I have absolutely no confidence or hope that its what we'll get.

 

Clubs like Bolton and Blackburn are able to improve on a shoestring as they have pretty astute managers who can see a decent player who will improve the team and fetch him in. Ben Haim, Benny McCarthy, David Bentley etc etc...

 

Can NUFC improve on a shoestring? The answer is no in my opinion because I feel the people who have the chance to get things right are totally incompetent

 

Because we're always looking for a quick fix. If we had the scouting network in place ten, fifteen years ago that was half as good as Wenger's, we'd be laughing. Our only policy regarding youth has been buying mediocre players from Ipswich and buying foreigners based on videos.

[Slugsy]

Good post and agree with a lot of it - only issue I have is whether Solano can play for a full season again at RB.  I have my doubts but then again, other areas are even more critical at present - it just shows you how weak the team is.

[Guest MaetihS]

Somehow, the sad thing is that unless we have a solid manager and a pile of cash, we are likely to go on a downtrend and become a midtale club.  Europe is a far away dream now and this is unlikely to change unless we bring some really good players or improve our current players which only can be done with a good manager or huge cash.  Even then, it is likely to take awhile to consolidate our position etc.  So its a sad fact our misery is likely to continue and our aim/joy next time may not be silverware or Europe, but a top 10 finish.  

[Guest shaun11177]

If a shoestring is nothing then we are in trouble because we dont have the scouting network.

How do Sevilla compete with Barcelona-if you read anything about them you realise they have a fantastic scouting network.We are desperate for a right back and they got Alves one of the best for nothing.

If a shoestring is 15m then im convinced that a quality centre half and 2 competent fullbacks can make a difference-there is nothing between teams in 5th-13th,the only difference can be 1 player.e.g the difference between Everton this season and last is Johnson.

Since we dont have the scouting ability of a Reading or Bolton we have to go down the route in the short term that 1 quality player can make the difference and if we had a fit Owen up front and bought someone like Woodgate with a couple of competent fullbacks we can get back to competing for 5th.The top 4 is a different matter and needs either tons of cash-Chelsea,a good Manager-Benitez etc,a great scouting network-Arsenal.

The Roeder policy of not been interested in a player because he is 32 e.g Campbell is not right for me.When a good player is available you must be interested whatever his age.Someone like Campbell in the team this season could in my opinion have been worth 7-10 more points.

i dont think a change in formation would make a difference of 7-10 points.

[Lloydie]

Yup. Sevilla spent no money, rebuilt their whole side and are challenging for the title in Spain, so it can be done.

 

AZ are another example, came up through the Dutch league with good coaching and very little else.

[Parky]

Whichever way you look at it to challenge for the PL you need 3/4 world class players and that will cost money. Without having around £100m contingency for this, we can forget it.

[Dave]

Challenge for the PL?!

[Slugsy]

Scouting is an area we are clearly very weak in and it does worry me.  For me, Roeder is never going to unearth a gem or steal a player for a good deal - he doesn't have the scouting network nor the clout.

[Parky]

Challenge for the PL?!

 

That should be our goal Dave.