Improving on a shoestring - Can it be done?

[Dave]

Our ultimate goal perhaps, but we can't plan for that without a sustained period (five or six years) of getting into the Champions League and building on the prestige/money generated every time. Something we failed to do when Bobby was here.

[Rich]

Scouting is an area we are clearly very weak in and it does worry me.  For me, Roeder is never going to unearth a gem or steal a player for a good deal - he doesn't have the scouting network nor the clout.

 

Scouting is also my major worry, especially in the modern game. If Roeder doesn't have a list of contacts like Wenger does, then he should start taking steps to create one because it really cannot be that hard to find coaches and clubs all over the world who could keep an eye open on behalf of Newcastle United. I have some ideas about how he could do this another way, but something tells me he wouldn't be open to it.

 

It doesn't even need to be scouts employed by the club, just friends of players who are playing abroad and all sorts of things. It's another typical example of how narrow-minded our approach is for one of the richest clubs on the planet - we are literally miles behind the likes of Arsenal and Manchester United in so many departments, it's unreal. The problems do not simply start with our lack of money and the manager/players.

 

If there was a structure behind Roeder and his staff, to support them, and if we had the technical coaches that the big clubs have and suchforth then we would see an improvement on the pitch for far less than having to go out and spend £20m-£30m on players every season/other season. You quite simply do not need to spend inordinate amounts of money in order to challenge the top-four, although it obviously helps.

 

The initial post is a good one, but for me it's too superficial and doesn't really take into account the improvements that need to be made as a club on the whole. We should be funneling more money into restructuring our entire philosophy/staff underneath Roeder, if he is to stay, rather than chucking all of our money at him in the hope that he makes a number of excellent signings. Because he will not spend another £15-20m of the club's money incredibly well, the odds are simply massively against this happening. For too long it's been the way that we expect the club's money to solve our problems by simply being spent on players and wages. It takes a hell of a lot more than decent players in order to challenge for anything serious these days and it's high-time people woke up and realised it.

[Parky]

It can't be done on a shoestring. Mid-table stuff yes, top 5 NO.

[Dave]

We need to improve to achieve mid-table next year imo.

[Rich]

It can't be done on a shoestring. Mid-table stuff yes, top 5 NO.

 

Tell that to Bolton or Spurs, both clubs who we still have more spending power than, or at least did last season when Spurs finished 5th. The thing about the top-four and Bolton/Spurs is that they are top-class in almost every approach to the game, or they are all significantly powerful in one important area of being a successful club.

[Parky]

Spurs have more or less the same spending power as us now. Last few years. Also they have no debt.

 

 

Newcastle United Football Company Ltd

 

87.117

 

90.195

 

96.473

 

70.891

 

Tottenham Hotspur plc

 

70.550

 

66.324

 

66.506

 

65.033

[Ally]

Bolton don't though.

[Parky]

Bolton don't though.

 

.....and?

[Rich]

Spurs have more or less the same spending power as us now. Last few years. Also they have no debt.

 

 

Newcastle United Football Company Ltd

 

87.117

 

90.195

 

96.473

 

70.891

 

Tottenham Hotspur plc

 

70.550

 

66.324

 

66.506

 

65.033

 

They've spent less than us, have they not? And they have a wage restriction in place, also? I'm obviously not 100% on this, but I'm fairly sure we outlay a fair whack more on wages and have done on transfer fees up until this season, perhaps.

 

If Spurs have the "same" spending power as us, surely they can be considered "shoestring" too, in comparison to the "top-four"?

[Ally]

Bolton don't though.

 

.....and?

 

"It can't be done on a shoestring. Mid-table stuff yes, top 5 NO."

 

Are Bolton not 5th on a very small budget? Signing Anelka is the only big money purchase they've had.

 

[Guest Phil K]

Yes, improvement on a shoestring can be done.

Not dramatic improvement, no

Slow and steady.

BUT without Roeder, or with a more capable man at the helm to help him - like Gerard Houllier.

Roeder should NOT be in sole charge next year.

[Parky]

As you have alluded and I agree, the hidden cost of transfers is the huge wages we pay and Spurs don't. I don't think Spurs are shoestring as we aren't either but we cannot compete with the top 4 without regular CL football or new finance from an investor. I agree with you and Ally Bolton are much more shoestring. My point is that guraranteed competing for top 5 ( as of right Euro football every year) is something that is impossible without spending money now. I think 10 years ago the pic was different, just the sheer nunbers and quality of the top 4 clubs in players purchases alone regaredless of other infrastructure makes it very very difficult to compete.

[Guest andynufc84]

Scouting is an area we are clearly very weak in and it does worry me.  For me, Roeder is never going to unearth a gem or steal a player for a good deal - he doesn't have the scouting network nor the clout.

 

Scouting is also my major worry, especially in the modern game. If Roeder doesn't have a list of contacts like Wenger does, then he should start taking steps to create one because it really cannot be that hard to find coaches and clubs all over the world who could keep an eye open on behalf of Newcastle United. I have some ideas about how he could do this another way, but something tells me he wouldn't be open to it.

 

It doesn't even need to be scouts employed by the club, just friends of players who are playing abroad and all sorts of things. It's another typical example of how narrow-minded our approach is for one of the richest clubs on the planet - we are literally miles behind the likes of Arsenal and Manchester United in so many departments, it's unreal. The problems do not simply start with our lack of money and the manager/players.

 

If there was a structure behind Roeder and his staff, to support them, and if we had the technical coaches that the big clubs have and suchforth then we would see an improvement on the pitch for far less than having to go out and spend £20m-£30m on players every season/other season. You quite simply do not need to spend inordinate amounts of money in order to challenge the top-four, although it obviously helps.

 

The initial post is a good one, but for me it's too superficial and doesn't really take into account the improvements that need to be made as a club on the whole. We should be funneling more money into restructuring our entire philosophy/staff underneath Roeder, if he is to stay, rather than chucking all of our money at him in the hope that he makes a number of excellent signings. Because he will not spend another £15-20m of the club's money incredibly well, the odds are simply massively against this happening. For too long it's been the way that we expect the club's money to solve our problems by simply being spent on players and wages. It takes a hell of a lot more than decent players in order to challenge for anything serious these days and it's high-time people woke up and realised it.

 

Agree with this 100%

 

Its not just our inadequate playing staff that needs improving, its the whole ethos of the club in imo.

 

But, unfortunately this starts with the big guy at the top and trcikles down. With him at the top we have no chance.

Things like Terry McDermott STILL being employed by NUFC, getting rid of Tommy Craig and replacing him with Lee Clark,when was the last time we had a coach with pedigree?

 

Even under SBR we has Carver and Wadsworth, I can't remeber in my 16 or so years following Newcastle the time where the club actually employed proper coaches with proven experience. Its just jobs for the boys, even if the 'boys' are s**** and are just the managers mates.

 

I feel the we are being left behind by the likes of Boltoin, Spurs and Blackburn to name just 3, and that is deeply concerning.

[Parky]

Bolton don't though.

 

.....and?

 

"It can't be done on a shoestring. Mid-table stuff yes, top 5 NO."

 

Are Bolton not 5th on a very small budget? Signing Anelka is the only big money purchase they've had.

 

 

Yes I give you Bolton. What makes that worse is that their turnover is actually tiny compared to us.

[Dave]

Spurs have an extremely rigid pay structure these days don't they? To the point of not signing people who won't agree to it? Sure I read that somewhere.

[Rich]

Spurs have an extremely rigid pay structure these days don't they? To the point of not signing people who won't agree to it? Sure I read that somewhere.

 

Most definitely they do. It's how we ended up getting Parker and Duff, to name just two.

[Parky]

Spurs have an extremely rigid pay structure these days don't they? To the point of not signing people who won't agree to it? Sure I read that somewhere.

 

Most definitely they do. It's how we ended up getting Parker and Duff, to name just two.

 

Yes they do and a good thing it is too. blueyes.gif

[Slugsy]

Scouting is an area we are clearly very weak in and it does worry me.  For me, Roeder is never going to unearth a gem or steal a player for a good deal - he doesn't have the scouting network nor the clout.

 

Scouting is also my major worry, especially in the modern game. If Roeder doesn't have a list of contacts like Wenger does, then he should start taking steps to create one because it really cannot be that hard to find coaches and clubs all over the world who could keep an eye open on behalf of Newcastle United. I have some ideas about how he could do this another way, but something tells me he wouldn't be open to it.

 

It doesn't even need to be scouts employed by the club, just friends of players who are playing abroad and all sorts of things. It's another typical example of how narrow-minded our approach is for one of the richest clubs on the planet - we are literally miles behind the likes of Arsenal and Manchester United in so many departments, it's unreal. The problems do not simply start with our lack of money and the manager/players.

 

If there was a structure behind Roeder and his staff, to support them, and if we had the technical coaches that the big clubs have and suchforth then we would see an improvement on the pitch for far less than having to go out and spend £20m-£30m on players every season/other season. You quite simply do not need to spend inordinate amounts of money in order to challenge the top-four, although it obviously helps.

 

The initial post is a good one, but for me it's too superficial and doesn't really take into account the improvements that need to be made as a club on the whole. We should be funneling more money into restructuring our entire philosophy/staff underneath Roeder, if he is to stay, rather than chucking all of our money at him in the hope that he makes a number of excellent signings. Because he will not spend another £15-20m of the club's money incredibly well, the odds are simply massively against this happening. For too long it's been the way that we expect the club's money to solve our problems by simply being spent on players and wages. It takes a hell of a lot more than decent players in order to challenge for anything serious these days and it's high-time people woke up and realised it.

 

Agree with this 100%

 

Its not just our inadequate playing staff that needs improving, its the whole ethos of the club in imo.

 

But, unfortunately this starts with the big guy at the top and trcikles down. With him at the top we have no chance.

Things like Terry McDermott STILL being employed by NUFC, getting rid of Tommy Craig and replacing him with Lee Clark,when was the last time we had a coach with pedigree?

 

Even under SBR we has Carver and Wadsworth, I can't remeber in my 16 or so years following Newcastle the time where the club actually employed proper coaches with proven experience. Its just jobs for the boys, even if the 'boys' are s**** and are just the managers mates.

 

I feel the we are being left behind by the likes of Boltoin, Spurs and Blackburn to name just 3, and that is deeply concerning.

 

Totally agree, unfortuantely I was saying this a few years back in the summer when Robson should have been moved upstairs.  Nothing has changed, in fact its got worse

[Rich]

Spurs have an extremely rigid pay structure these days don't they? To the point of not signing people who won't agree to it? Sure I read that somewhere.

 

Most definitely they do. It's how we ended up getting Parker and Duff, to name just two.

 

Yes they do and a good thing it is too. blueyes.gif

 

Thing is, if we had one at the same level as Spurs do we could struggle to sign the so-called "top players", mainly because of our location more than anything else.

 

The other side of the coin is that we might find ourselves mostly buying players who want to play for Newcastle more than they want to earn an extra few grand a week at a smaller club who pay bigger wages, which is the exact opposite of the decisions Parker and Duff seem to have made. I'm sure Parker was a Spurs fan as a boy, as well.

 

The wage-cap is the sort of thing that makes sense though, for a club of our size, it gives a clear indication of the club's standing and is a structured way of bringing in football players on a completely manageable budget. It's exactly the sort of things I was talking about in my first post on this subject - having some sort of plan in every area of the club, all focused on exactly the same goal.

[Parky]

Spurs have an extremely rigid pay structure these days don't they? To the point of not signing people who won't agree to it? Sure I read that somewhere.

 

Most definitely they do. It's how we ended up getting Parker and Duff, to name just two.

 

Yes they do and a good thing it is too. blueyes.gif

 

Thing is, if we had one at the same level as Spurs do we could struggle to sign the so-called "top players", mainly because of our location more than anything else.

 

The other side of the coin is that we might find ourselves mostly buying players who want to play for Newcastle more than they want to earn an extra few grand a week at a smaller club who pay bigger wages, which is the exact opposite of the decisions Parker and Duff seem to have made. I'm sure Parker was a Spurs fan as a boy, as well.

 

The wage-cap is the sort of thing that makes sense though, for a club of our size, it gives a clear indication of the club's standing and is a structured way of bringing in football players on a completely manageable budget. It's exactly the sort of things I was talking about in my first post on this subject - having some sort of plan in every area of the club, all focused on exactly the same goal.

 

I don't think overpaying wages will ever be anything more than a short term solution and it also reeks of desperation. Arsenal have a structure of sorts only broken by Henry if iirc. Players imo want to play for clubs that are competing and have good support. We have one of those already.

[Rich]

Spurs have an extremely rigid pay structure these days don't they? To the point of not signing people who won't agree to it? Sure I read that somewhere.

 

Most definitely they do. It's how we ended up getting Parker and Duff, to name just two.

 

Yes they do and a good thing it is too. blueyes.gif

 

Thing is, if we had one at the same level as Spurs do we could struggle to sign the so-called "top players", mainly because of our location more than anything else.

 

The other side of the coin is that we might find ourselves mostly buying players who want to play for Newcastle more than they want to earn an extra few grand a week at a smaller club who pay bigger wages, which is the exact opposite of the decisions Parker and Duff seem to have made. I'm sure Parker was a Spurs fan as a boy, as well.

 

The wage-cap is the sort of thing that makes sense though, for a club of our size, it gives a clear indication of the club's standing and is a structured way of bringing in football players on a completely manageable budget. It's exactly the sort of things I was talking about in my first post on this subject - having some sort of plan in every area of the club, all focused on exactly the same goal.

 

I don't think overpaying wages will ever be anything more than a short term solution and it also reeks of desperation. Arsenal have a structure of sorts only broken by Henry if iirc. Players imo want to play for clubs that are competing and have good support. We have one of those already.

 

Agreed-o. We're in a bit over our heads at the moment, though, for this to be changed - with the wages the likes of Dyer/Owen are currently on. I still think location plays a massive part, certainly as much as having "good support". However, again we could use Bolton as the exception to that supposed rule, on both counts!

 

They might pay big wages, though, who knows?

[Guest shaun11177]

Of course the Roeder factor is huge.

Didnt Roeder say he wanted the Pro Zone system put in at the start of the season as far as i know nothing has happened on that front if Allardyce had asked you can bet he would have got it straightaway.

He also said he wanted to build a worldwide scouting network-bet absolutely nothing has happened.

That is a problem when you have a Chairman who says everything is in place to win a trophy-when it clearly isnt.

[Guest alex]

He probably wants to have a decent managerial record to look back on too. That won't happen either.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Solano, Moore, New CB, New LB

                Butt, Emre

                  N'zogbia

        Dyer,  Owen,  Martins

 

For me.

 

[Dokko]

 

*Snip

 

The team for me could be like this:

                      Given

Solano, Moore, New CB, New LB

              Parker, Butt

                    Emre

        Dyer,  Martins, Owen

 

*Snip

 

 

Sell Parker, Emre & Duff (plus the rest of the shite) and buy Baines, Davies & Bent to have (and get freebies in like Sidwell & scour the Championship for young talent):

 

                    Given

Solano, Taylor, Davies, Baines

              Butt, N'Zogbia

                    Dyer

        Owen,  Bent, Martins

 

Bit more attacking without Parker there, but i think a better balance and Dyer in for me his best position.

 

Still would like Solano replaced as i think he's slowing down and wont be able to keep up the job next season.

 

But in answer to the thread title, no. It cannot be done, there is too much to be done to do it on a shoestring budget, especially if we are to change the formation as well.