Crouch > Martins

[Parky]

Martins' movement and anticipation is so poor that he's left using this amazing pace he has to catch up to defenders, by which time they've dealt with the danger.  If he would stop reacting to things and start gambling on them with a bit of anticipation (think Owen, v Nistelrooy, Larsson etc), he'd be ahead of the defenders and away before they knew about it.  He'll look a bit daft when he gets it wrong and goes too early or whatever, but he'll get it right a lot more than he does at the moment.  Needs coaching into him though - just the basics of where to be in relation to the centre halfs etc.  That pretty much sums him up for me.  Until that's sorted he's second rate.

 

Totally agree. My particular bugbear is that Roeder still hasn't told him to come in from the right rather than the left. His starting positions are awful in the final attacking phase. Just seems to run about anywhere. blueyes.gif

[Dinho lad]

Don't particularly rate Crouch.....although I agree that some people have been overrating Martins.

[Guest TheOrder]

He's 22. Howay lads, I know we're fucking angry as fuck, but to get on Oba's back is stupid.

 

Our midfiled is/wank. Nobody is scoring. You can't judge a striker with no service.

[Guest Gemmill]

He's 22. Howay lads, I know we're fucking angry as fuck, but to get on Oba's back is stupid.

 

Our midfiled is/wank. Nobody is scoring. You can't judge a striker with no service.

 

The service isn't affecting his touch or his positioning.  I mean at one point yesterday, Duff had the ball on the left wing beyond the 18 yard line.  Where's Martins - jogging behind his marker outside of the box.  What the fuck is he doing there?  Why is he not bursting into the box, or running along the line giving his marker and the defenders something to think about?  What purpose does he imagine he's serving by tracking his marker off the pace, waiting to react to whatever Duff does instead of giving some impetus to the move?  He was basically spectating.  Yeah, the midfield is poor, and there's a lack of service, but there's also a lack of options because he's not providing one.

 

I know he's young, and I know he's got time to learn, but there's no point in lying about how good he is or trying to kid ourselves that he's something he's not.  I'm only saying it how I see it.

 

[Guest TheOrder]

If you noticed yesterday, both Dyer and Martins had to drop back into midfield, because they were simply standing there like duck-eggs. as the midfield were gently passing the ball back, or in a straight line.

[Guest Gemmill]

If you noticed yesterday, both Dyer and Martins had to drop back into midfield, because they were simply standing there like duck-eggs. as the midfield were gently passing the ball back, or in a straight line.

 

I don't think Martins did have to drop back tbh - the occasions when he did I was asking what the fuck he was playing at.  Dyer, yes because he'll pick the ball up and run at defenders and commit them, but it's pointless Martins dropping back to get the ball trapped under his feet and relinquish possession  ("Where's it gone?  It's disappeared!?  The ball's disappeared!"........."I'll have that thank you"). 

[Parky]

If you noticed yesterday, both Dyer and Martins had to drop back into midfield, because they were simply standing there like duck-eggs. as the midfield were gently passing the ball back, or in a straight line.

 

I don't think Martins did have to drop back tbh - the occasions when he did I was asking what the fuck he was playing at.  Dyer, yes because he'll pick the ball up and run at defenders and commit them, but it's pointless Martins dropping back to get the ball trapped under his feet and relinquish possession  ("Where's it gone?  It's disappeared!?  The ball's disappeared!"........."I'll have that thank you"). 

 

His positioning and sense of tempo is woeful Gemma...Can't disagree with anything your saying man. blueyes.gif

[Guest TheOrder]

Woeful is a bit stong. I'll let this pass as obviously everyones pissed off, but he's one of our best players, and owe our status in the premiership for.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

Why single out one of our better players, someone who has done well this season? We constantly piss on the good things at Newcastle. Shearer scored 30 goals in SBR's first season in charge but a regular moan was "he's not the player he once was" FFS, Martins is 22. Robert scored and created lots of goals yet one of the moans was "he's a lazy bastard", Bellamy "misses too many one on ones", Shay "can't command his box"...

 

I agree with some of your points Gemmill but I would be more concerned if he was showing these failings week in week out - he doesn't however and has shown he can link up play, pass the ball and control it well. We now need to coax that out of him on a regular basis to good effect. It would be unfair to judge him this critically at such a young age in terms of development, least of all playing in a shite team that is going nowhere. The acid test will be next season and beyond.

 

I agree with you about Crouch BTW, a player I've always liked and rated, he's a decent player and anyone who saw his goals yesterday, will know that. I still wouldn't like him at the club though, as he'd cost crazy money and I'd fear by having such a tall man who isn't the best in the air believe it or not, would give us an excuse to play it long all the time, something we do regulalry anyway with cock-height Martins up front.

[Guest given take]

I want them both here. Variation in attack

[Guest BlueWhiteMonkey]

Martins is a glorified sprinter with a hard shot.

 

Poor man's Djibril Cisse.

[thewellander]

I would welcome Crouch coming to play for Newcastle. I think he's underrated. He gets a lot of flack imo because he's kind of awkward and he started to get a lot of attention last summer for his stupid robot dance. But, let's face it, Owen and Martins won't be able to play together and we're missing a physical presence up front. Crouch would add diversity to our attack that we're sorely missing. Plus, he's an English lad, and I like when we field players from the home country.

[Guest MaetihS]

Crouch is def better than Martins atm but Martins is still young hopefully he will be as effective as Crouch sooner than later.

[Guest Gemmill]

Why single out one of our better players, someone who has done well this season? We constantly piss on the good things at Newcastle. Shearer scored 30 goals in SBR's first season in charge but a regular moan was "he's not the player he once was" FFS, Martins is 22. Robert scored and created lots of goals yet one of the moans was "he's a lazy bastard", Bellamy "misses too many one on ones", Shay "can't command his box"...

 

I agree with some of your points Gemmill but I would be more concerned if he was showing these failings week in week out - he doesn't however and has shown he can link up play, pass the ball and control it well. We now need to coax that out of him on a regular basis to good effect. It would be unfair to judge him this critically at such a young age in terms of development, least of all playing in a shite team that is going nowhere. The acid test will be next season and beyond.

 

I agree with you about Crouch BTW, a player I've always liked and rated, he's a decent player and anyone who saw his goals yesterday, will know that. I still wouldn't like him at the club though, as he'd cost crazy money and I'd fear by having such a tall man who isn't the best in the air believe it or not, would give us an excuse to play it long all the time, something we do regulalry anyway with cock-height Martins up front.

 

What's your point then?  You agree with a lot of what I say, but then say I shouldn't be saying it?  He's shown you he can control the ball well?  Has he been doing this in private cos he's not doing it at SJP that's for fucking sure.

[Ally]

Couple of excellent points by the G Man, I was infuriated with him yesterday for just hanging around outside the box when it was obvious we needed someone to burst into the box.

 

I rate him and I think he's been excellent in a lot of games, but he's had loads more shit ones than good ones. But its ok, he's really good in training apparantly...

[Northern Monkey]

We're bidding for him in the summer so you don't have long to wait Gemms. I personally don't rate his overall game, no pace, not much movement etc - but yes his fiinishing has improved. He also has something about his character, a certain fighting spirit in which I can see he has already learnt to overcome adversity (Noclueque anyone). For me they are different players infact two who could play well together.

The 'problems' with Martins is for me his intelligence and positioning, he is an instictive finisher and will never lose that. We just don't seem to buy clever players - Emre and Owen aside. Would I personally have him here - No. Could he be successful here I'd say yes.

 

ITK. <snigger>

[Northern Monkey]

He's 22. Howay lads, I know we're fucking angry as fuck, but to get on Oba's back is stupid.

 

Our midfiled is/wank. Nobody is scoring. You can't judge a striker with no service.

 

You CAN judge a striker on their movement on and off the ball, and their ball control. Those things have FUCK ALL TO DO WITH THE OTHER PLAYERS.

 

And in every one of those areas, Martins is relatively weak - AT THE MOMENT. But lets not pretrend that Roeder and his coaching staff are capable of turning his potential into reality, because they aren't.

 

As for Crouch - i don't like him as a player, I don't believe he'll do it the Premiership consistently enough. And he'll encourage a fucking retard like Roeder, and idiots like Parker and Shambles et al, to play the long ball.

[Ally]

Oh, on the topic of Martins. It doesn't help him at all when his partner upfront is absolutely wank and can't be arsed to run around. Yes, you Kieron. If he was injured yesterday i'll let him off, because tbh he looked it, but if not that was one of the worst Dyer games i've ever seen!

[Guest Knightrider]

Why single out one of our better players, someone who has done well this season? We constantly piss on the good things at Newcastle. Shearer scored 30 goals in SBR's first season in charge but a regular moan was "he's not the player he once was" FFS, Martins is 22. Robert scored and created lots of goals yet one of the moans was "he's a lazy bastard", Bellamy "misses too many one on ones", Shay "can't command his box"...

 

I agree with some of your points Gemmill but I would be more concerned if he was showing these failings week in week out - he doesn't however and has shown he can link up play, pass the ball and control it well. We now need to coax that out of him on a regular basis to good effect. It would be unfair to judge him this critically at such a young age in terms of development, least of all playing in a shite team that is going nowhere. The acid test will be next season and beyond.

 

I agree with you about Crouch BTW, a player I've always liked and rated, he's a decent player and anyone who saw his goals yesterday, will know that. I still wouldn't like him at the club though, as he'd cost crazy money and I'd fear by having such a tall man who isn't the best in the air believe it or not, would give us an excuse to play it long all the time, something we do regulalry anyway with cock-height Martins up front.

 

What's your point then?  You agree with a lot of what I say, but then say I shouldn't be saying it?  He's shown you he can control the ball well?  Has he been doing this in private cos he's not doing it at SJP that's for fucking sure.

 

My point is why single out Martins and make what for me are absurd comments such as "could still yet prove to be an expensive flop" or words to that effect, when in reality he has done very well this season and shown more than enough that there is a great deal of potential there. You've claimed that people overrate him (they do) yet for me, you're just as bad with your over the top critical assessment. Yes his control, movement etc. isn't the best and he's a frustrating player, all things I agree with you on, but you make it out to be a lot worse than it actually is or give that impression.

 

As for the games where he has shown good control etc. - Liverpool at home, Spurs, Hammers, Blackburn away, AZ at home (I thought he was sparkling) and Chelsea at home in the LC come to mind, where he did well, in my opinion anyway.

 

What Martins needs and so do we, is a good partner, we also need to stop playing balls 10 feet in the air for him to try and get on the end of, and to use his assets such as his pace, to play to his strengths and hope in time his overall game will develop enough.

 

I personally think he has done amazingly well this season to make a mark given the service and the anal tactics being deployed, to score 16 goals in this abject team is no mean feat. To be hyper critical as you have been pretty much since day one though, is being harsh.

[Guest Knightrider]

I was infuriated with him yesterday for just hanging around outside the box when it was obvious we needed someone to burst into the box.

 

Not his game and I doubt it ever will be Ally. This is where the absence of Michael Owen is mostly felt.

[Yorkie]

I like Martins, absolutely no question about it - and i think that he has the potential to develop into a marvellous player. To compare him to Peter Crouch is difficult in my opinion, because they're different sort of players. The sad thing for Martins this season, and along with his age and inexperience in this league, i think one of the main reasons for why we haven't seen the best of him this term - is because he's been played as the centre-forward.

 

Crouch is a centre-forward. He works inside the box. He makes the runs to the near and far post. He's the one that charges into the box looking for the header. He's the one who plays on the shoulder of defenders, bustling them out of the way. He's the one that, with his back to goal, he should be turning and shooting on target. That is a centre-forward.

 

Martins isn't. And he's been relied on because we haven't had another centre-forward in the squad, because Shola's been out. Sibierski plays behind Martins and so does Dyer, so it's been unfortunate.

 

That's why i feel it is difficult to compare Martins to Crouch - because they're different players. But Martins has been forced into an 'un-natural' position, so Crouch is going to win it hands down. What's been unfortunate for Oba, is that he hasn't had the coaching staff or mentor to teach him how to play that role. His main flaw being his positioning. Roeder was a centre-back for crying out loud, he's not going to teach him how to be sublime in the box, getting away from defenders. Martins needed a Shearer to tell him what's what, if that's the position that he was going to be forced to play this season.

 

We need Owen back - a world class striker for inside the penalty area. Then the roles will change and Martins will benefit. Martins is good at making the play, working outside the box, bringing other players into it using the wings. He's not the one who should be make the charging runs in and around the penalty area - and that has been his major flaw this season, undoubtedly - which is where i agree wholeheartedly with Gemmill. I just don't think it's all his fault, if you see what i mean.

 

But i do feel it is a shame that we're picking on one of the our very few bright sparks of, lets face it, a pretty grim season.

 

As for Crouch, he's a player that i've always liked - even when people have continually slated him on here. Funny how people change their tune when he bags a hat-trick. I reckon that he'd have the potential to do brilliantly well here, but knowing Roeder, he'd revert to the pitiful long ball when really - Crouch is very good with the ball at his feet. Just look at his third goal yesterday.

 

Anyhow - Forza Oba.

[Yorkie]

I was infuriated with him yesterday for just hanging around outside the box when it was obvious we needed someone to burst into the box.

 

Not his game and I doubt it ever will be Ally. This is where the absence of Michael Owen is mostly felt.

 

Thanks for making my point before i posted it.

[Guest Gemmill]

Why single out one of our better players, someone who has done well this season? We constantly piss on the good things at Newcastle. Shearer scored 30 goals in SBR's first season in charge but a regular moan was "he's not the player he once was" FFS, Martins is 22. Robert scored and created lots of goals yet one of the moans was "he's a lazy bastard", Bellamy "misses too many one on ones", Shay "can't command his box"...

 

I agree with some of your points Gemmill but I would be more concerned if he was showing these failings week in week out - he doesn't however and has shown he can link up play, pass the ball and control it well. We now need to coax that out of him on a regular basis to good effect. It would be unfair to judge him this critically at such a young age in terms of development, least of all playing in a shite team that is going nowhere. The acid test will be next season and beyond.

 

I agree with you about Crouch BTW, a player I've always liked and rated, he's a decent player and anyone who saw his goals yesterday, will know that. I still wouldn't like him at the club though, as he'd cost crazy money and I'd fear by having such a tall man who isn't the best in the air believe it or not, would give us an excuse to play it long all the time, something we do regulalry anyway with cock-height Martins up front.

 

What's your point then?  You agree with a lot of what I say, but then say I shouldn't be saying it?  He's shown you he can control the ball well?  Has he been doing this in private cos he's not doing it at SJP that's for fucking sure.

 

My point is why single out Martins and make what for me are absurd comments such as "could still yet prove to be an expensive flop" or words to that effect, when in reality he has done very well this season and shown more than enough that there is a great deal of potential there. You've claimed that people overrate him (they do) yet for me, you're just as bad with your over the top critical assessment. Yes his control, movement etc. isn't the best and he's a frustrating player, all things I agree with you on, but you make it out to be a lot worse than it actually is or give that impression.

 

As for the games where he has shown good control etc. - Liverpool at home, Spurs, Hammers, Blackburn away, AZ at home (I thought he was sparkling) and Chelsea at home in the LC come to mind, where he did well, in my opinion anyway.

 

What Martins needs and so do we, is a good partner, we also need to stop playing balls 10 feet in the air for him to try and get on the end of, and to use his assets such as his pace, to play to his strengths and hope in time his overall game will develop enough.

 

I personally think he has done amazingly well this season to make a mark given the service and the anal tactics being deployed, to score 16 goals in this abject team is no mean feat. To be hyper critical as you have been pretty much since day one though, is being harsh.

 

Jesus Christ lad, what is hyper-critical about pointing out that the lad's movement and control are poor?  They ARE by the way, you can deny that all you like and list 6 games from an entire season where he's demonstrated a good touch, but that's not enough.  His touch is consitently worse than Shola's, which only serves to prove that on the occasions he gets it right, it's more through luck than him actually having a good touch.  Jesus, anyone can get it right from time to time.  More often than not his touch is poor, and more often than not his movement is poor.  Name your top 6 Martins games as evidence that he's great if you like, but don't expect me not to point to the rest of the time as evidence that he's got a LONG way to go and he's going to need proper coaching to get there.

 

PS.  Were you there yesterday?  (bet you weren't )  Did you see any evidence of his touch?

[Ally]

Touch of a rapist yesterday tbh. He was getting more and more frustrated with himself which in turn made his touch even worse.

[Kasper]

When he's not scoring mint goals he looks shite.

 

 

And when Bramble isn't fucking up he looks..