Guest Gemmill Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 The goals scored may be different but you also have to consider the balls chased down, the defenders hassled, the cannels run, going wide to help out and you will note a slight difference in "team play" between the two players mentioned!! You make it sound like Martins' movement is good, which it most assuredly isn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 So you do not think he is worth keeping to see how he does in his 2nd season? I shudder at the thought of us blowing a fortune on fkn Ashton, so he can miss most of the season with injury. Did you shudder when we spent £15m on Shearer despite all his injuries? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 The goals scored may be different but you also have to consider the balls chased down, the defenders hassled, the cannels run, going wide to help out and you will note a slight difference in "team play" between the two players mentioned!! Must have blinked when that happened. Kluivert's touch was also a million miles better than Martins' and could keep hold of the ball when it came to him. More often than not when Martins gets it, we're being forced to defend again soon after. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 So you do not think he is worth keeping to see how he does in his 2nd season? I shudder at the thought of us blowing a fortune on fkn Ashton, so he can miss most of the season with injury. Did you shudder when we spent £15m on Shearer despite all his injuries? You think Ashton is or will be anywhere near the player Shearer was?, I just think selling Oba now would be fkn stupid, and if we do get an offer double what we paid then does that not tell you he is wroth keeping? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemmill Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 So you do not think he is worth keeping to see how he does in his 2nd season? I shudder at the thought of us blowing a fortune on fkn Ashton, so he can miss most of the season with injury. Not if someone offers more than we paid for him. Martins needs a shitload of coaching to turn him into anything more than the raw player he currently is. Unless we have a top to bottom overhaul in that department then we're wasting our time with him and should cash in if someone comes in with a big offer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 And who's going to pay £20m for Martins?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Kluivert could hold the ball up well, yes, but he was a lazy bugger and didn't know the meaning of teamwork. Gemmil, depends what you mean by movement, he certainly "moves" a hell of a lot more than Kluivert did the only thing being that most of the time it's renedered useless due to the lack of able players to provide a pass...etc..etc I doubt anyone would pay over 10-12million for him, it would also be a mistake for us to sell him for anything less than the "silly" prices quoted (most in jest I would have thought) for a 20 something year old in his first prem season!!"!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemmill Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Kluivert could hold the ball up well, yes, but he was a lazy bugger and didn't know the meaning of teamwork. Gemmil, depends what you mean by movement, he certainly "moves" a hell of a lot more than Kluivert did the only thing being that most of the time it's renedered useless due to the lack of able players to provide a pass...etc..etc I doubt anyone would pay over 10-12million for him, it would also be a mistake for us to sell him for anything less than the "silly" prices quoted (most in jest I would have thought) for a 20 something year old in his first prem season!!"!!! Sorry like, but this business of blaming others for Martins' shit movement is cobblers. The lad tracks his marker constantly, doesn't seem to know to get into the box when we're on the attack, and reacts rather than anticipating to everything. It's not completely his fault - if Roeder took his hands out of his pockets on the touchline once in a while and pointed it out to him, we might see some improvements - but I'm not having it that it's his teammates responsibility to give him the ball while he stands next to his marker or tracks behind play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 I have faith Oba will come good, more faith than I do that Ashton would prove his worth!! Kluivert was a lazy lazy fat fker, and as I recall every fker on here was sick to death of him. So he had a good first touch, WOW he did fk all else afetr he got the ball under control. I would take oBa over Kluivert any day! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Crikey, £20m for Martins - that would make my day. Chelsea just might go for it, you never know. Martins/Owen has got "trouble" written all over it, if you ask me. It's going to end up being one or the other, or neither (knowing us), but if they "work" together then I'll be mightily amazed. I can just see it now, though: we knock back a good bid for Martins, he reluctantly stays and then his partnership with Owen is non-existant or he gets injured and we're having to choose between the pair of them at a later juncture - or both of them end up going because we're still ambling around the lower echelons of the league. I hope I'm wrong, by a long way. I wouldn't be surprised if Martins is already deeply unhappy here and he's ready to jump ship at the first opportunity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Do you only watch the players in the immediate vicinity of the ball? Do robots have tunnel vision? Have you actually seen the team make accurate forward passes for more than say a five- ten minute period in a match? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 I know lets sell Oba buy Ashton, swap Owen for Crouch then we can play long ball football and I am sure everyone will be so much happier next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Or...sell Martins, buy a striker who can keep hold of the ball when he gets it, giving our wingers & Owen a chance to play a bit of football next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Martins needs coaching (though that's a different story) and is having a very poor patch. I certainly wouldn't sell him unless we got a silly offer as i'd like to see him develop here rather than elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Martins needs coaching (though that's a different story) and is having a very poor patch. I certainly wouldn't sell him unless we got a silly offer as i'd like to see him develop here rather than elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemmill Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Do you only watch the players in the immediate vicinity of the ball? Do robots have tunnel vision? Have you actually seen the team make accurate forward passes for more than say a five- ten minute period in a match? Have you seen Martins run into space, drag defenders out of position, anticipate a pass rather than just react to one, use his pace to beat a defender rather than catch up with him, use his pace for much other than retrieving the ball after it's bounced off him like something out of a fucking pinball machine? The answer's no if you've actually seen the lad play and aren't blinded by the fact that he's scored a few decent goals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Why does the "whole world" think that a successful forward strike partnership has to have a "big man" who can head and hold up the ball and a speedy technical small man.....aaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ronaldinho - etoo (both aren't good headers of the ball - not bad footy players though!) Rooney-saha (need I say more?) Ronaldo - crespo ................................................................ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 I know lets sell Oba buy Ashton, swap Owen for Crouch then we can play long ball football and I am sure everyone will be so much happier next season. Utter bollocks, man. Where are these "two little men" partnerships pulling up trees, by the way? Is there any team in the league who successfully play without a fairly hefty/tall striker, other than the blatantly obvious Manchester United? Who sort of get away with it by having world class players all over the park and a winger who scores more than most "strikers" in the league. I have no faith in us to pull-off this masterful "pass and move" football that people are advocating and it's never something that has been synonymous with us, apart from when Beardsley/Cole were here (completely different partnership to Owen/Martins like). What parts of Owen/Martins' games do people think will gel, for God's sake? Martins' cunning ability to get his head up and pick a pass? The fact he'll drag his marker out wide to open up space for Owen? If anything, it's going to have to be Owen who does all of the donkey-work and dropping deep, which will be fairly painful to watch - even though MO looked very good on the ball during his few games last season. Partnerships are what tend to do the business for teams who aren't as good elsewhere on the park as their rivals - just look how Bellamy/Shearer, with service, transformed us a few years back and look at how revitalised Spurs are now that they've realised Berbatov/Keane are fantastic together up front. With Martins/Owen I cannot see anything other than two individuals who will want to score goals and be provided with service, two poachers. Or is Martins still the "playmaking forward" that some clueless dolts were calling him earlier in the season? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Martins needs coaching (though that's a different story) and is having a very poor patch. I certainly wouldn't sell him unless we got a silly offer as i'd like to see him develop here rather than elsewhere. Do you think he can partner Owen? I'm not convinced. And we're not big enough at all at the moment for both Martins & Owen to be vying for one place. If we can get our money back for Martins, spend a similar amount on Zigic, Ashton or Crouch, then sign a cheaper small striker as back-up to Owen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kenton Magpie Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Id ponder it if a canny offer came in, the blokes first touch is terrible and when he has a average game he contributes nothing to the team for me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 If we had a creative midfielder then we could play Martins and Owen upfront together, but I would prefer Owen or Oba upfront with a bigger striker. How many games do you think Owen will play? do we not need a stonger squad? I for one would rather see us have Owen, Martins, Crouch + 1 more, will probably be shola, can't see him being sold. Olny 2 stikers should be leaving and thats Luque and Sib, then think about buying Crouch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Why does the "whole world" think that a successful forward strike partnership has to have a "big man" who can head and hold up the ball and a speedy technical small man.....aaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ronaldinho - etoo (both aren't good headers of the ball - not bad footy players though!) Rooney-saha (need I say more?) Ronaldo - crespo ................................................................ Are you fucking pulling my leg? Barcelona play 3 up-top for starters and are a world-class football team, playing in SPAIN. AC Milan are also a world-class football team, playing in ITALY. Funny how Barca got turned over by a team playing big-man/little-man in the CL and how Milan look like doing the same against Bayern after fucking scraping past Celtic and struggling to deal with Vennegoor in both ties. Comparing us to Barcelona and AC Milan, that's made my day. Find me an example from the Premiership and I'll be more open to it, but I'll still come back and show you umpteen teams who thrive using the big-man/little-man formula. That's not even really the issue, though, it doesn't HAVE to be someone who's tall. Someone like Sheringham in his prime or Gudjohnsen would probably work brilliantly with Owen because they see runs and pick passes, Obafemi Martins struggles to pass the ball five-yards directly ahead of him and has always been the same. This is really people's issue on Martins/Owen, and it's already one I've touched on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Martins needs coaching (though that's a different story) and is having a very poor patch. I certainly wouldn't sell him unless we got a silly offer as i'd like to see him develop here rather than elsewhere. Do you think he can partner Owen? I'm not convinced. And we're not big enough at all at the moment for both Martins & Owen to be vying for one place. If we can get our money back for Martins, spend a similar amount on Zigic, Ashton or Crouch, then sign a cheaper small striker as back-up to Owen. I've no idea whether he can partner Owen, but i'd like to see our two most dangerous strikers play together and see what happens before jumping to any conclusions on no evidence. How can anyone be sure any of those player you mention can partner Owen any better than Martins? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Martins needs coaching (though that's a different story) and is having a very poor patch. I certainly wouldn't sell him unless we got a silly offer as i'd like to see him develop here rather than elsewhere. Do you think he can partner Owen? I'm not convinced. And we're not big enough at all at the moment for both Martins & Owen to be vying for one place. If we can get our money back for Martins, spend a similar amount on Zigic, Ashton or Crouch, then sign a cheaper small striker as back-up to Owen. I've no idea whether he can partner Owen, but i'd like to see our two most dangerous strikers play together and see what happens before jumping to any conclusions on no evidence. How can anyone be sure any of those player you mention can partner Owen any better than Martins? Martins will learn a lot from Owen, I am sure he deserves the chance to learn from a top top striker.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 Okay instead of point scoring lets see what Martins does have going for him: He has bags of skill and bags of pace. He is relatively young so I think that he can only get better, it's also his first season here and he has adapted better than a lot of other foreign strikers have.... As for the partnership with owen: The majority of defences will have to sit deep to cope with the pace. This causes larger spaces between midfield and defence which should make it easier for us to be creative? Owen is an area poacher who can find spaces and is generally in the right positions to recieve balls, oba does seem more random and it's hard to fathom out whether they will click or not. I also think that oba isn't bad in the air and he has great spring off the ground and has scored a couple of goals with his head... I would rather we had a good centre back who came up for corners and freekicks and set plays... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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