James Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I've been following the debate about formations in various threads over recent weeks, and have now come to the conclusion that there is a good chance of seeing a 3-5-2 next season. My reasons for this are the following: Geremi This guy is a very athletic player who will run up and down the flank all day, and is able to play in both the right back and right wing role. Thus we have a player who can play energetically run our right hand side. Beye This guy continuously gets linked, and it has to be noted that the media have been pretty much on the ball with regards to our transfer targets this summer. What stands out is that as the player can play at both right back and centre back, he will be comfortable playing on the right hand side of the three centre backs, doing both full back and centre back duties where required. Sam wants two left backs We are close to signing a second right back, and he recently said to Crumpy that he wanted two left backs. I would apply Allardyce's right sided player choice to the left hand side, that is, his two targets are someone to play left wing back, and someone to play on the left hand side of the three centre backs. Our strikers Owen, Martins, Viduka and Owen cannot fit competitively into a 433/451 formation, and yet Allardyce seems keen to see all four stay. If one leaves, Gudjohnsen is the main target, and that wouldn't really work either. That would indicate that he is going for two up front, so formation variants have to be derived from that fact. Ball playing defenders The majority of defenders signed/linked like Geremi/Rozehnal/Edmilson/Beye are sometimes known for their ball playing skills more than their defensive skills. In a 3-5-2, defenders cant rely on help from full back/winger exchanges that Newcastle usually use to pass our way up the field if we opt not to lamp the ball. Ball playing centre backs would be able to playtheir way out of danger without bypassing the midfield. General player versatility I believe that to play 3-5-2, you have to have players who can adapt to their roles, and even offer possibilities of a change in formation when things aren't working out, or even just when we move from one area of the field to another. Rozehnal and Edmilson can play in both defence and midfield, as can Geremi. Beye can play both at centre back and full back. In midfield, Dyer, Milner, N'Zogbia, Solano, Duff and Luque can take up a variety of roles. Effectively, we could switch to 442, 343 or 433 with a simple touchline order, each player being extremely comfortable at playing in the role they switch to. Kieron Dyer Sam seems keen to utilise Dyer. I suspect that Dyer would form an invaluable part of a 3-5-2 formation. i think many criticisms of Dyer is that he never fits into the team, he is OK in many positions, but has weaknesses that people are quick to point out on: He doesn't track back from central midfield, exposing the defence. His finishing isn't good enough for a striker. He doesn't track back from right wing, and can't cross the ball in the air. However Dyer is excellent at running on and off the ball, covers a lot of ground, can score a decent amount for a midfielder, and is extremely underrated when it comes to his ability at passing the ball forwards. A 3-5-2 formation creates a midfield trio, providing two players to cover him, allowing him to do what he does best, i.e. supporting the players down the flank, supporting the attackers, and creating space for his team mates by scaring defences with his forward running. When injured, I believe that N'Zogbia and Milner are great cover for this role. Steve Round Is it a coincidence that we have hired a man who is not only meant to be one of the best tactical brains in the country, but also a huge supporter of making England adopt the 3-5-2 formation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Our strikers Owen, Martins, Viduka and Owen cannot fit competitively into a 433/451 formation I should say not Seriously though I hope he'll just stick with a 4-4-2 for this year. Although I like the idea of a 3-5-2 it would require so much readjustment on the part of players who have played 442 all their lives to pull it off that we'd need to be preparing now to start using it next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Our strikers Owen, Martins, Viduka and Owen cannot fit competitively into a 433/451 formation I should say not Seriously though I hope he'll just stick with a 4-4-2 for this year. Although I like the idea of a 3-5-2 it would require so much readjustment on the part of players who have played 442 all their lives to pull it off that we'd need to be preparing now to start using it next season. If people on here are as keen to give Allardyce as much time to rebuild as they say they are, then I'm sure if Allardyce wants to play 3-5-2, they'll give him this season to adjust to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I've been following the debate about formations in various threads over recent weeks, and have now come to the conclusion that there is a good chance of seeing a 3-5-2 next season. My reasons for this are the following: Geremi This guy is a very athletic player who will run up and down the flank all day, and is able to play in both the right back and right wing role. Thus we have a player who can play energetically run our right hand side. Beye This guy continuously gets linked, and it has to be noted that the media have been pretty much on the ball with regards to our transfer targets this summer. What stands out is that as the player can play at both right back and centre back, he will be comfortable playing on the right hand side of the three centre backs, doing both full back and centre back duties where required. Sam wants two left backs We are close to signing a second right back, and he recently said to Crumpy that he wanted two left backs. I would apply Allardyce's right sided player choice to the left hand side, that is, his two targets are someone to play left wing back, and someone to play on the left hand side of the three centre backs. Our strikers Owen, Martins, Viduka and Owen cannot fit competitively into a 433/451 formation, and yet Allardyce seems keen to see all four stay. If one leaves, Gudjohnsen is the main target, and that wouldn't really work either. That would indicate that he is going for two up front, so formation variants have to be derived from that fact. Ball playing defenders The majority of defenders signed/linked like Geremi/Rozehnal/Edmilson/Beye are sometimes known for their ball playing skills more than their defensive skills. In a 3-5-2, defenders cant rely on help from full back/winger exchanges that Newcastle usually use to pass our way up the field if we opt not to lamp the ball. Ball playing centre backs would be able to playtheir way out of danger without bypassing the midfield. General player versatility I believe that to play 3-5-2, you have to have players who can adapt to their roles, and even offer possibilities of a change in formation when things aren't working out, or even just when we move from one area of the field to another. Rozehnal and Edmilson can play in both defence and midfield, as can Geremi. Beye can play both at centre back and full back. In midfield, Dyer, Milner, N'Zogbia, Solano, Duff and Luque can take up a variety of roles. Effectively, we could switch to 442, 343 or 433 with a simple touchline order, each player being extremely comfortable at playing in the role they switch to. Kieron Dyer Sam seems keen to utilise Dyer. I suspect that Dyer would form an invaluable part of a 3-5-2 formation. i think many criticisms of Dyer is that he never fits into the team, he is OK in many positions, but has weaknesses that people are quick to point out on: He doesn't track back from central midfield, exposing the defence. His finishing isn't good enough for a striker. He doesn't track back from right wing, and can't cross the ball in the air. However Dyer is excellent at running on and off the ball, covers a lot of ground, can score a decent amount for a midfielder, and is extremely underrated when it comes to his ability at passing the ball forwards. A 3-5-2 formation creates a midfield trio, providing two players to cover him, allowing him to do what he does best, i.e. supporting the players down the flank, supporting the attackers, and creating space for his team mates by scaring defences with his forward running. When injured, I believe that N'Zogbia and Milner are great cover for this role. Steve Round Is it a coincidence that we have hired a man who is not only meant to be one of the best tactical brains in the country, but also a huge supporter of making England adopt the 3-5-2 formation? I've been saying this for ages, but I got shut down ... glad to have you on board sir! Something to add to your post. You make a very good point about the centre backs on the outside of the back three being players who can play both centre-back and right-back. This is important because on counter attacks when our wing backs are caught out of position these players will need to slide accross to cover the oppositions wingers who seek to exploit this space. This will leave a gap in our defence which will then be filled in by a defensive midfielder. It is no surprise then that Sam wants tall defensive midfielders who can also play in defence i.e. Edmilson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I dont think that much adjustment is needed really. The players that would need to adjust a the wing backs and the wide centre backs, and if the first signing, Geremi, and the believed second signing for these positions, Beye are to go buy, it looks like Allardyce is filling the team with players who can adapt quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I would not be surprised to see us go for Mikael Silvestre to play as the left-sided centre back in the back three. I've heard some rumours but not ITK or anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DavB93 Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 As long as Big Sam is getting the results I'm not too fussed which formation he plays, I'd personally like to see us adopt the 3-5-2 next season but will just have to wait and see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Where's Papa Lazaru? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shaun11177 Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 You have to ask the question-why do none of the top4+Madrid+Barcelona+even the germans play a back 3-in fact i cant think of a team that does. Can anyone think of a top team that plays 3 at the back. England tried with players like Terry and it failed not because of Terry but because the rest of the team didnt have a clue. Sam has enough to do at this club with recruiting-setting up a better scouting system,getting more players thru the Academy and sorting out some preventive cure for our continual injury problems without asking him to reinvent the wheel. Stick to 442 which the players know. Not going to change a formation to accomodate Dyer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I dont think that much adjustment is needed really. The players that would need to adjust a the wing backs and the wide centre backs, and if the first signing, Geremi, and the believed second signing for these positions, Beye are to go buy, it looks like Allardyce is filling the team with players who can adapt quickly. Part of the reason he is buying more experienced players, as they will not struggle as much to adjust. Kieron Dyer will be interesting though, there are rumours Sam wants to try him out as an attacking right-back. As you say though he would also work as one of the three central midfielders (with an attacking MF role). The three central midfielders in a 3-5-2 can either consist of 1 DM and 2 AMs or 2DMs and 1 AM, this will probably change depending on who we are playing. Sam has emphasized that he wants Barton tog et him goals so Barton will be first choice AM I would imagine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Our strikers Owen, Martins, Viduka and Owen cannot fit competitively into a 433/451 formation, and yet Allardyce seems keen to see all four stay. If one leaves, Gudjohnsen is the main target, and that wouldn't really work either. That would indicate that he is going for two up front, so formation variants have to be derived from that fact. I think you've made some pretty good points and I definately think it's a possibility. I dont think that point is right though. Playing three up front doesnt mean that own and martins have to become wing forwards. I think if Viduka drops deep and then he has the option to play through balls to both Martins and Owen then that would work really well. Thats how I expect we'll play but we'll have to wait and see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohmelads Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 3-5-2 is a difficult formation to pull off, espescially in England. I wouldn't want us to be Allardyce's "failed experiment". Do any of our players have experience of this formation??? I could see some teams doing their homework on us and giving us a thumping down the flanks to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest graemeh72 Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Decent thread.. I think that 3-5-2 will be one of many formations that Sam will use. he's already gone on record as saying that he would look at different tactics/styles home and away. In my opinion the success of 3-5-2 depends on the quality and fitness of the wing backs, as they need to shuttle up and down the touchline for 90 mins. I can see Geremi and Dyer doing this role to a certain degree, but I can't see a left sided player who is capable of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest teepee Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 4 at the back - every time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_69 Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 3-5-2 and 5-3-2 are the same formation, it just depends if you see the wing backs as defenders or midfielders. Dyer IMO is the perfect wind back. He's quick and he has incredible stamina which are both essential attributes, and he can also score goals. Interestingly the same can be said of Leighton Baines, a player we have been heavily linked with. I don't buy into the idea that Sam is buying players who can specifically fit into this formation. I think he is targeting players who offer the versatility to fit into a number of different formations. We already know that he plans to play different systems for home and away games, 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 respectively, but he's also the kind of manager who will change the system during a match if he doesn't feel things are going well. This requires players who are quick to adjust and who are comfortable playing in more than one position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Interesting to note that Brazil won the 2002 world cup with the 3-5-2 in which Edmilson featured as one of the three centre backs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Decent thread.. I think that 3-5-2 will be one of many formations that Sam will use. he's already gone on record as saying that he would look at different tactics/styles home and away. In my opinion the success of 3-5-2 depends on the quality and fitness of the wing backs, as they need to shuttle up and down the touchline for 90 mins. I can see Geremi and Dyer doing this role to a certain degree, but I can't see a left sided player who is capable of it. Wayne Bridge? Leighton Baines? Both left-backs who started off as wingers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptoon Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 4 at the back - every time! Agree 100% 442 yes 433/451 yes. I fear the worst with 352. i meant 352 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shaun11177 Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Unfortunately you cannot really compare Brazil and Newcastle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 4 at the back - every time! Agree 100% 442 yes 433/451 yes. I fear the worst with 351. Can't say I blame you as we would only have 9 outfield players with a 3-5-1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willow Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I agree with James although we'd have to have a seriously well drilled and strong back three to cope in the premiership. Also you have to take into account that during a match we won't have to play in a 3-5-2 and stick with it the whole match. Depending on how the game goes we can shape back to 4-4-2 at any time meaning it keeps the opposition on their toes and shows how well we are to adapting to 2 different systems. Like its been said, Sam seems to be targeting players who can adapt and are generally considered strong in a variety of positions which can only mean good things when it comes to shifts in formations Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Morph Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 4 at the back - every time! Agree 100% 442 yes 433/451 yes. I fear the worst with 351. Can't say I blame you as we would only have 9 outfield players with a 3-5-1. We're going to be too good next year that The FA have imposed a 10 player limit on us at all times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptoon Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 4 at the back - every time! Agree 100% 442 yes 433/451 yes. I fear the worst with 352. Can't say I blame you as we would only have 9 outfield players with a 3-5-1. Changed now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven_MB Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 4 at the back - every time! Agree 100% 442 yes 433/451 yes. I fear the worst with 352. I'd like to try 352 in the league cup or FA cup versu chaff, but wouldn't risk valuble points debuting this in the premier league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 3 at the back is the work of the devil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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