Have we actually got the wrong strikers for the 433?

[Baggio]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Best points return we've had in the opening two games of the Premiership season since 97/98 (ten fucking years ago) and people are still making comments like this

 

I'd say it's probably too early to say, but it certainly hasn't been the disaster it's being made out to be so far... and did we not switch to 4-4-2 against Villa when Owen came on?

 

He's spent over £20 million and people are saying he hasn't got the strikers or midfielders for this formation, as I've said he should of bought different then.

 

That's not me moaning, perhaps I should join the Toon Ultra's and swing my trainers around my head like some sort of idiot if it'll make me sound less negative, or even do a NSG "We're gonna win the league" speach on SSN, I'll see what I can do.

[Shak]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Best points return we've had in the opening two games of the Premiership season since 97/98 (ten f****** years ago) and people are still making comments like this

 

I'd say it's probably too early to say, but it certainly hasn't been the disaster it's being made out to be so far... and did we not switch to 4-4-2 against Villa when Owen came on?

 

Yeah, and we looked even less likely to score than when we were playing 4-3-3.

 

As you say, we definitely need to give the team time before we start criticising. Is there anyone here who would have been upset with 4 points from our first two games if it was offered a couple of weeks ago?

 

Agree that the midfielders were the main problem, a combination of Butt, Geremi and Smith just doesn't have the necessary quality going forward to take a game to our opponents, which is what we needed against Villa. The Bolton game worked well for us as we got a goal pretty much out of nowhere to go one up, meaning we didn't have to force the issue at all. The same trio looked very good in that circumstance as they're three solid players from a defensive point of view.

 

We need Emre or Barton in there, in my opinion. I'd even move Milner to the middle until they return now that Owen and N'Zogbia are options in attack again.

 

Still think 4-3-3 is the way we'll play more often than not, and I'll wait a while longer before writing it off as boring, negative football.

[Rich]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Best points return we've had in the opening two games of the Premiership season since 97/98 (ten fucking years ago) and people are still making comments like this

 

I'd say it's probably too early to say, but it certainly hasn't been the disaster it's being made out to be so far... and did we not switch to 4-4-2 against Villa when Owen came on?

 

He's spent over £20 million and people are saying he hasn't got the strikers or midfielders for this formation, as I've said he should of bought different then.

 

That's not me moaning, perhaps I should join the Toon Ultra's and swing my trainers around my head like some sort of idiot if it'll make me sound less negative, or even do a NSG "We're gonna win the league" speach on SSN, I'll see what I can do.

 

"People are saying"... that's all it is, people who know far less about football than Sam Allardyce and probably even Chris Mort are saying we don't have the players to play 4-3-3, I've said I'm happy to wait and see, surely that's a fairly sensible stance to take before I do any criticising/questioning? Are we even going to be playing 4-3-3 every time? Was it not just sort of dictated to Allardyce after the Bolton performance and because of the injuries/Solano's head not being the right place?

 

We played 4-4-2 more than 4-3-3 in the friendly games, which leads me to believe that it would be Big Sam's formation of choice if the right players were available for it (Solano/Milner on the flanks seemed to be his pick because of the need to play N'Zogbia at LB and the lack of Damien Duff.)

 

And, if you did either of the things you mention in the last paragraph then I'd be delighted. You'd be far less boring

[Guest Knightrider]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Best points return we've had in the opening two games of the Premiership season since 97/98 (ten fucking years ago) and people are still making comments like this

 

I'd say it's probably too early to say, but it certainly hasn't been the disaster it's being made out to be so far... and did we not switch to 4-4-2 against Villa when Owen came on?

 

He's spent over £20 million and people are saying he hasn't got the strikers or midfielders for this formation, as I've said he should of bought different then.

 

That's not me moaning, perhaps I should join the Toon Ultra's and swing my trainers around my head like some sort of idiot if it'll make me sound less negative, or even do a NSG "We're gonna win the league" speach on SSN, I'll see what I can do.

 

The players needed would mean we'd have to peddle the likes of Martins and Owen and replace them with similar quality, which isn't as easy as signing freebies like Viduka and Geremi. Those two players mentioned both have clauses in their contracts yet still remain Toon players which goes to show just how hard it would be to shift the two, never mind replace them. He hasn't spent £20m either because we've sold one or two for big money.

 

His priorities were to clear out the dead wood and strengthen the squad first and foremost, on a tight budget. He's more than done that. That's step one. Step two will be to buy the right players to fit how he wants us to play, further up the pitch. But those players cost big money and are in short supply. And I don't know if you've noticed this but we don't have big money (yet) and aren't exactly in a position of strength to attract/compete for the top players (yet).

 

It's easy to sit here and say well he should have done this and that, had he done what you suggest, he'd have been lambasted either way for getting rid of Owen and Martins, both big favourites or big draws for the crowd and neglecting squad depth issues. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

 

Indeed the very fact we are all discussing our options and things like formations without any real conclusion is proof positive that we are on the right road. Before Allardyce's arrival the team picked itself in a 4-4-2 formation. Now we have a number of players who can do a number of jobs and no-one really knows our best lineup and formation.

 

Plus, hey, we can't fully write of the 4-3-3 and our strikers just two games in surely (although I already have to some degree), for all we know Martins, Viduka and Owen in a forward 3 might bag tons of goals and propel us into the top 6 (which I concede is possible).

 

Big Sam is no mug, I'm sure he's aware of every little side issue and will resolve them, in time.

[Baggio]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Best points return we've had in the opening two games of the Premiership season since 97/98 (ten fucking years ago) and people are still making comments like this

 

I'd say it's probably too early to say, but it certainly hasn't been the disaster it's being made out to be so far... and did we not switch to 4-4-2 against Villa when Owen came on?

 

He's spent over £20 million and people are saying he hasn't got the strikers or midfielders for this formation, as I've said he should of bought different then.

 

That's not me moaning, perhaps I should join the Toon Ultra's and swing my trainers around my head like some sort of idiot if it'll make me sound less negative, or even do a NSG "We're gonna win the league" speach on SSN, I'll see what I can do.

 

"People are saying"... that's all it is, people who know far less about football than Sam Allardyce and probably even Chris Mort are saying we don't have the players to play 4-3-3, I've said I'm happy to wait and see, surely that's a fairly sensible stance to take before I do any criticising/questioning? Are we even going to be playing 4-3-3 every time? Was it not just sort of dictated to Allardyce after the Bolton performance and because of the injuries/Solano's head not being the right place?

 

We played 4-4-2 more than 4-3-3 in the friendly games, which leads me to believe that it would be Big Sam's formation of choice if the right players were available for it (Solano/Milner on the flanks seemed to be his pick because of the need to play N'Zogbia at LB and the lack of Damien Duff.)

 

And, if you did either of the things you mention in the last paragraph then I'd be delighted. You'd be far less boring

 

Now you're trying to twist it, my point was clearly that if he wants to play 4-3-3 but hasn't got the players for it, then he should have bought different.

 

If he doesn't want to play 4-3-3 then the comment becomes hypothetical and doesn't really matter, as for the things I've suggested, I'd rather cut my eyes out than do either to be perfectly honest with you.

[Dave]

I really bet you wouldn't.

[Baggio]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Best points return we've had in the opening two games of the Premiership season since 97/98 (ten fucking years ago) and people are still making comments like this

 

I'd say it's probably too early to say, but it certainly hasn't been the disaster it's being made out to be so far... and did we not switch to 4-4-2 against Villa when Owen came on?

 

He's spent over £20 million and people are saying he hasn't got the strikers or midfielders for this formation, as I've said he should of bought different then.

 

That's not me moaning, perhaps I should join the Toon Ultra's and swing my trainers around my head like some sort of idiot if it'll make me sound less negative, or even do a NSG "We're gonna win the league" speach on SSN, I'll see what I can do.

 

The players needed would mean we'd have to peddle the likes of Martins and Owen and replace them with similar quality, which isn't as easy as signing freebies like Viduka and Geremi. Those two players mentioned both have clauses in their contracts yet still remain Toon players which goes to show just how hard it would be to shift the two, never mind replace them. He hasn't spent £20m either because we've sold one or two for big money.

 

His priorities were to clear out the dead wood and strengthen the squad first and foremost, on a tight budget. He's more than done that. That's step one. Step two will be to buy the right players to fit how he wants us to play, further up the pitch. But those players cost big money and are in short supply. And I don't know if you've noticed this but we don't have big money (yet) and aren't exactly in a position of strength to attract/compete for the top players (yet).

 

It's easy to sit here and say well he should have done this and that, had he done what you suggest, he'd have been lambasted either way for getting rid of Owen and Martins, both big favourites or big draws for the crowd and neglecting squad depth issues. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

 

Indeed the very fact we are all discussing our options and things like formations without any real conclusion is proof positive that we are on the right road. Before Allardyce's arrival the team picked itself in a 4-4-2 formation. Now we have a number of players who can do a number of jobs and no-one really knows our best lineup and formation.

 

Plus, hey, we can't fully write of the 4-3-3 and our strikers just two games in surely (although I already have to some degree), for all we know Martins, Viduka and Owen in a forward 3 might bag tons of goals and propel us into the top 6 (which I concede is possible).

 

Big Sam is no mug, I'm sure he's aware of every little side issue and will resolve them, in time.

 

I agree with you, especially the bit about how our strikers might adapt to the formation, people mention Anelka and how well he done in Bolton's set up yet forget that for the first dozen or so games he was shite for them, once he adapted then he took off from there.

 

I think there's a good chance that ours can too, maybe not to be a replica of Bolton but an adapted version using faster fullbacks to make up for the lack of width on Owen's side, I certainly wouldn't be writing any of our top 3 strikers off yet, especially Oba who looks good out on the wide right.

 

Our problem is now is supplying them, I pointed out a while back that our midfield was to slow and wouldn't create anything and that showed against Villa, we need to dip back into the transfer market and get someone who can move the ball on or run with it, either that or hope for a speedy recovery to Barton and Emre.

[gazza ladra]

If you supply Owen, Martins and Viduka then they will score goals.

 

We could have had Henry, Eto'o and Ronaldinho up there against Villa but if the midfield created as much as they did that day for them then they wouldn't have looked like scoring either.

 

Exactly.

 

One goalless draw and the sky is falling... Allardyce is turning us into Bolton...he's trying to sell Martins 

 

FFS

[Baggio]

I really bet you wouldn't.

 

Perhaps I exaggerated a bit there, Dave.

 

 

[Rich]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Best points return we've had in the opening two games of the Premiership season since 97/98 (ten fucking years ago) and people are still making comments like this

 

I'd say it's probably too early to say, but it certainly hasn't been the disaster it's being made out to be so far... and did we not switch to 4-4-2 against Villa when Owen came on?

 

He's spent over £20 million and people are saying he hasn't got the strikers or midfielders for this formation, as I've said he should of bought different then.

 

That's not me moaning, perhaps I should join the Toon Ultra's and swing my trainers around my head like some sort of idiot if it'll make me sound less negative, or even do a NSG "We're gonna win the league" speach on SSN, I'll see what I can do.

 

"People are saying"... that's all it is, people who know far less about football than Sam Allardyce and probably even Chris Mort are saying we don't have the players to play 4-3-3, I've said I'm happy to wait and see, surely that's a fairly sensible stance to take before I do any criticising/questioning? Are we even going to be playing 4-3-3 every time? Was it not just sort of dictated to Allardyce after the Bolton performance and because of the injuries/Solano's head not being the right place?

 

We played 4-4-2 more than 4-3-3 in the friendly games, which leads me to believe that it would be Big Sam's formation of choice if the right players were available for it (Solano/Milner on the flanks seemed to be his pick because of the need to play N'Zogbia at LB and the lack of Damien Duff.)

 

And, if you did either of the things you mention in the last paragraph then I'd be delighted. You'd be far less boring

 

Now you're trying to twist it, my point was clearly that if he wants to play 4-3-3 but hasn't got the players for it, then he should have bought different.

 

If he doesn't want to play 4-3-3 then the comment becomes hypothetical and doesn't really matter, as for the things I've suggested, I'd rather cut my eyes out than do either to be perfectly honest with you.

 

I did mention 4-4-2 in my first response, so I'm not trying to twist it "now", I've been trying that since my first input.

 

The point of me initially bringing that in was because people are assuming we're playing this 4-3-3 whatever the weather, and in response to HTT's comment you simply said "then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer", apparently implying that "if he wants to play 4-3-3 but hasn't got the players for it, then he should have bought different".

 

My point was: what if his system is a 4-4-2? Has he bought the right players for that?

 

It's surely "expanding the debate", rather than making the original comment hypothetical. That's all I was trying to do.

[Guest Knightrider]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Best points return we've had in the opening two games of the Premiership season since 97/98 (ten fucking years ago) and people are still making comments like this

 

I'd say it's probably too early to say, but it certainly hasn't been the disaster it's being made out to be so far... and did we not switch to 4-4-2 against Villa when Owen came on?

 

He's spent over £20 million and people are saying he hasn't got the strikers or midfielders for this formation, as I've said he should of bought different then.

 

That's not me moaning, perhaps I should join the Toon Ultra's and swing my trainers around my head like some sort of idiot if it'll make me sound less negative, or even do a NSG "We're gonna win the league" speach on SSN, I'll see what I can do.

 

The players needed would mean we'd have to peddle the likes of Martins and Owen and replace them with similar quality, which isn't as easy as signing freebies like Viduka and Geremi. Those two players mentioned both have clauses in their contracts yet still remain Toon players which goes to show just how hard it would be to shift the two, never mind replace them. He hasn't spent £20m either because we've sold one or two for big money.

 

His priorities were to clear out the dead wood and strengthen the squad first and foremost, on a tight budget. He's more than done that. That's step one. Step two will be to buy the right players to fit how he wants us to play, further up the pitch. But those players cost big money and are in short supply. And I don't know if you've noticed this but we don't have big money (yet) and aren't exactly in a position of strength to attract/compete for the top players (yet).

 

It's easy to sit here and say well he should have done this and that, had he done what you suggest, he'd have been lambasted either way for getting rid of Owen and Martins, both big favourites or big draws for the crowd and neglecting squad depth issues. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

 

Indeed the very fact we are all discussing our options and things like formations without any real conclusion is proof positive that we are on the right road. Before Allardyce's arrival the team picked itself in a 4-4-2 formation. Now we have a number of players who can do a number of jobs and no-one really knows our best lineup and formation.

 

Plus, hey, we can't fully write of the 4-3-3 and our strikers just two games in surely (although I already have to some degree), for all we know Martins, Viduka and Owen in a forward 3 might bag tons of goals and propel us into the top 6 (which I concede is possible).

 

Big Sam is no mug, I'm sure he's aware of every little side issue and will resolve them, in time.

 

I agree with you, especially the bit about how our strikers might adapt to the formation, people mention Anelka and how well he done in Bolton's set up yet forget that for the first dozen or so games he was shite for them, once he adapted then he took off from there.

 

I think there's a good chance that ours can too, maybe not to be a replica of Bolton but an adapted version using faster fullbacks to make up for the lack of width on Owen's side, I certainly wouldn't be writing any of our top 3 strikers off yet, especially Oba who looks good out on the wide right.

 

Our problem is now is supplying them, I pointed out a while back that our midfield was to slow and wouldn't create anything and that showed against Villa, we need to dip back into the transfer market and get someone who can move the ball on or run with it, either that or hope for a speedy recovery to Barton and Emre.

 

Baggio, good point about Anelka who I doubted would succeed at Bolton under Big Sam if I'm honest so who knows maybe they can although I can't see it. Willing to be proved wrong though.

 

We do need a playmaker you are right, I've been saying it for ages and we've needed one for years, even under SBR when we had a fairly decent team and success to some degree.

 

I think we'll get one BTW, although when, I'm not sure. Big Sam likes his playmakers, he had Djorkaef, Diouf and Okocha at Bolton, players who could knit the midfield with the attack and vice versa. Someone like any of those three would do me.

[Dave]

I really bet you wouldn't.

 

Perhaps I exaggerated a bit there, Dave.

 

 

 

I think you did, eye.

[Baggio]

I really bet you wouldn't.

 

Perhaps I exaggerated a bit there, Dave.

 

 

 

I think you did, eye.

 

Pun intended?

[Dave]

I.

[Parky]

I.

 

How long has it been since you did a post longer than one line Dave?  :parky:

[Dave]

I.

 

How long has it been since you did a post longer than one line Dave?  :parky:

 

http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=44473.msg980931#msg980931

 

Six minutes.

[Parky]

I.

 

How long has it been since you did a post longer than one line Dave?  :parky:

 

http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=44473.msg980931#msg980931

 

Six minutes.

 

 

That's just a game discription not a 'proper post'. I'm watching you. You have an excuse in the day as you're on yer phone. But I want to see longer efforts in the evening. 

 

[Dave]

Whatever you like.

[Mr Logic]

Interesting thread. I don't have anything to add to the main debate regarding the right strikers but I did want to ask a question regarding points raised about the Villa game.

 

I was over in Cumbria camping and only heard the commentary, and it wasn't terribly complimentary.

 

It seems the team reverted to a 4-4-2 after Owen came on. Sam even claimed in comments after the game he changed it twice. I would suggest that not much changed at all really, as changing the appearance (shape) without changing the style (long balls) isn't worth much.

 

Would that assumption be correct?

 

I find it a tad disconcerting if true. Roeder was strongly criticised for his inability to change things when they clearly needed changing and leaving it way too late when he did make a change.

 

I'm hoping this was just a case of Sam desperately wanting a clean sheet and not having the players on the bench he needed to really change things. If with a full and fit squad there's more of the same I'm afraid I'll draw the conclusion that whilst Sam is an innovator in many ways when it comes to tactics he's really rather one dimensional.

[Parky]

If I was going to play a pure 443 these would be the ideal front three...

 

 

Duff........Smith........Milner.

 

 

 

Go figure. :parky:

[Shak]

If I was going to play a pure 443 these would be the ideal front three...

 

 

Duff........Smith........Milner.

 

 

 

Go figure. :parky:

 

That's absolute madness.

[Parky]

If I was going to play a pure 443 these would be the ideal front three...

 

 

Duff........Smith........Milner.

 

 

 

Go figure. :parky:

 

That's absolute madness.

 

But pure.

 

 

Look...

 

 

Duff........Smith........Milner.

 

........Zoggy....Barton.......

 

...............Diop/Faye...........

 

Ricky....Tay....Roze....Geremi

[Shak]

Still, nah for me.

 

I see Smith as a solid, hardworking player who'll consistently give you a decent/good contribution and can be called upon to play in midfield or up front as part of a two, but with everyone fit I don't see him as being a very good player in any particular position, rather a good player in a lot of different positions.

 

Not someone you can build an attack around.

[Parky]

Still, nah for me.

 

I see Smith as a solid, hardworking player who'll consistently give you a decent/good contribution and can be called upon to play in midfield or up front as part of a two, but with everyone fit I don't see him as being a very good player in any particular position, rather a good player in a lot of different positions.

 

Not someone you can build an attack around.

 

 

 

I know.

[Northern Monkey]

Still, nah for me.

 

I see Smith as a solid, hardworking player who'll consistently give you a decent/good contribution and can be called upon to play in midfield or up front as part of a two, but with everyone fit I don't see him as being a very good player in any particular position, rather a good player in a lot of different positions.

 

Not someone you can build an attack around.

 

He's not actually a particularly good footballer though. We should have spent the money better.