madras

in sundays independent. a canny read. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/centre-stage-at-last-for-patient-understudy-harper-1634686.html

That's the most baffling thing. They're effectively spit polishing the club with the view to attracting buyers yet Llambias seems to talk in the long term. I really do hope MA wants to offload ASAP but I fear we're going to be in the second tier in a few seasons time still finding ways to cut costs. I fear you are correct. It's admitted in this article that the long term talk was bollocks and it seems they are just continuing with this speel in the hope that supporters have something to cling onto. I am in no doubt we will financially be better off when they leave but unless these youngsters are superstars we are going to be years behind most of the premiership. Could you quote that bit, please? I must have missed it. On this note we asked why Ashley comes out with statements such as “we are going to be in Europe by the end of the season” and “what price to finish in the top six?” Llambias questioned where these quotes were coming from and we duly informed him of the source: His own club’s programme on the day NUFC were comprehensively taken apart 5-1 by Liverpool. The guy in charge of the programme defended this as “an attempt to pick up on the feel good factor”. thats one big leap in reading between the lines mind.

in the higher reaches. not so much lower down.

apathy sets in every season around this time when there is something to play for....I JUST WANT IT OVERWITH...type thing.

skill ? ability ?......those are your definitions. as for the rest of the post, there is sooo much to pick at but i can't be arsed. i'll limit myself to your last couple of sentences, i doubt any manager/coach or whatever would continue picking someone on the strength of their training ground games when their real games have been so poor.

Would that be regardless of salaries/contracts involved Mick ? This is starting to sound like an expensive divorce case between a rich husband and a gold-digging wife. to be fair i never thought keegan looked up for it from almost the start

take a look round this forum. all people want is someone who is fast and punts it into the box.

domi

i've been to see blue star a few times (always have done,more so when they were at the wheatsheaf). which club did you have in mind ?

for the most part he was a decent defender. only at the end of his time here did he have a bad game or two but could often lose you the game in 1 second of madness whilst his overall game had been good.

If he was heavily involved in the farce that is the January transfer window then he's certainly not earning that reported salary. bit harsh if he persuaded the players to come (and by all accounts ebondo and johnson wanted to come) but for the transfer fee,possibly not set by him wasn't to the selling clubs satisfaction. we can't blame wise until it is made clearer what his job is. That's why I said if. i know.....i just think it needs drummed home sometimes to get past peoples short sighted hatred of wise. (i say short sighted as i accept disliking the fella isn't blind hatred as there are enough glaringly obvious reasons to dislike him)

If he was heavily involved in the farce that is the January transfer window then he's certainly not earning that reported salary. bit harsh if he persuaded the players to come (and by all accounts ebondo and johnson wanted to come) but for the transfer fee,possibly not set by him wasn't to the selling clubs satisfaction. we can't blame wise until it is made clearer what his job is.

it wasn't shepherd....he doesn't make the decisions for the major shareholders.

What FS would have done what all the other clubs with high wages and debt do. Maybe you can enlighten me so that I know the answer. You know the ans goes they are all above us in the table. There's zero evidence to show we were heading up the table under FS. Strange don't remember saying that. If the others have managed to reign in wages and continue sensible spend on players not sure why we can't. Feel free to point out what I'm missing. Paying for players upfront is madness, nobody does it and there are some good reasons not to. Why would we want to? Every team is keen to keep an eye on debt under the new fianacial scenario, but they don't do it to the extent that it might endanger PL status. and on and on.... i understand that nobody does it but can't think of any good reasons why not to (except that nobody else does it). i'm pretty sure football would be better if it were made a uefa rule that all transfer fees had to be paid up front. on a side note i wonder if anyone has worked out how much we were actually paying year on year for transfer fees doing it this way instead of the usual "add all the total ffes up" style ? another side note for the new beelzebubs (accountants/financial workers) out there........these fees that are paid in stages or we are to receive in the summer ie given. how does it affect tax if the monies are received in a different financial year....could it be advantageous for example to get the money off citeh in the summer as opposed to now ? (it's not an excuse for not getting the money up front,the should have...and a damn sight more than 5.9mill)

Let's hope so. I'd much rather the club had the £9 million than Soccer Circus. either "soccer circus" or "the soccer circus" will get the money.

He's put £40 million in to cover our payments, £30 million is covered in the last set of accounts and £10 million has been reported this week yet you have decided that you'll make a judgement based on nothing. Regardless of him potentially getting the loans back, we needed the money and Shepherd wasn't in a position to pay that sort of money. As I've tried to say in previous posts, the majority of the money Ashley has loaned the club on top of taking on the £70m debt when he took over is to pay for his decision to pay for players up front rather than stagger the payments as is typical. It's been specifically said that some of the recent £10m is to cover the up front purchase of Nolan while we've received nothing for Given. A lot of the additional money that Ashley has loaned the club would not have been necessary under the old board or indeed any other owners. Assuming 4 year staggered payments, and starting with Smith as a signing Ashley would have had full control under: Smith + Enrique + Beye + Feye = £16.5m Incoming transfer costs to the club in 07-08 under Ashley = £16.5m Incoming transfer costs to the club in 07-08 under anyone else = £4.1m Bassong + Guthrie + Coloccini + Xisco + Nolan = £24m Incoming transfer costs to the club in 08-09 under Ashley = £24m Incoming transfer costs to the club in 08-09 under anyone else = £4.1m + £6m = £10.1m So assuming all other things equal, the club has paid out up to 16.5+24 - (4.1+10.1) = £26.3m more in advance of when strictly necessary (ie if we did it like other clubs) simply due to Ashley's choice to pay up front for players rather than in instalments. but does that mean we'd have had more to spend if he staggered the payments ? to me it means that this time next year we'll not have payments to make on the players bought this year...ultimatly in the long run this should be a better way to run any business and you aren't still paying for something 3 or 4 years down the line when your circumstances may have changed dramatically and should make it wasier to react to the current situation.

You talking about fat Fred and the Hall's? They didn't pretend the club was broke, they actually made it that way . Just a little correction for you there. :laughterisnotargumentation: they found it that way ............ do your history. Just lately I had held out a bit of hope for you. Back to square 1 how would you describe the position when ashley took over and what do you think fred and co would have done had ashley not bought them out ?

No one can gag Keegan unless he agrees to it, and the only way he will settle quietly is if his case isn't watertight (which it obviously isn't). A settlement is an agreement between the two parts, so Keegan will of course have to agree to it. But you have no reason to assume Keegan will accept it only if his case isn't watertight. They may chose to pay him more in a settlement than he could expect from a court case, rather than risking a PR disaster, and Keegan might think money is worth more than publicly humiliating the people at the club. We don't know. But basically, a settlement means the club think they may have more to lose by letting the case go public, and that Keegan think he has no more to win, or small chance of it, by taking it further. Interesting opinion. One that just seems to pluck any possibility out of thin air with no regard to how probable it is in reality. Do you have experience of employment litigation issues? To be offering such wildly improbable scenarios i'd hazard not. "Lets give him 12m out of court so we dont have to give him 9m in court". Genius. Clearly not what he was trying to say, but fair play for being so pig headed. Keegan will not necessarily get the full £9 million he is asking for but still win the case and still get some compo from the club, as well as having the satisfaction of having the lame excuses trotted out by those in charge on full view to all and sundry. Ashley isn't in the business of giving away cash so the fact they're trying to settle out of court speaks volumes. With Keegan apparently liable for 2m then an out of court settlement doesnt speak volumes about anything. If Keegan is liable and the club aren't at fault why are they giving him £4 million? Oh sorry, i've just realised you live in cloud cuckoo land and Ashley has already paid out. It's looking likely it's going to be settled out of court, with MA parting with some cash. If Keegan is liable why may MA be about to give him £4 million? Sensible answer please. alternativly if NUFC are liable why is keegan willing to settle for half. an out of court settlememnt of this style would,to me, seem to imply neither side was too sure of the ground they were on.

Same here. I actually thought and I said it on here at the time as well that he'd have picked up a few more points than KK did during his first few games after Big Sam got sacked. Remember not long before he went we were not conceding many and had recently drew 1-1 with Arsenal and narrowly lost 2-1 to Chelsea. Under KK we were getting stuffed at home to Man Utd, away to Villa etc. and struggling badly to the point at half-time away to Birmingham I thought we could go down which I never felt under Big Sam. We would have been in the mix like but we were under KK too. Going down is a real possibility now however... or you could say kinnears nufc got a point at chelsea...overall it's been poor,as was allardyce but i reckon kinnear would go to west brom to try and win ,allardyce wouldn't. remember derby took 4 points off us and deserved 6,remember the team he put out away to sunderland ? remember saying "well we were 3 down after 15mins so its gone from then" without saying we were only 2 down after 17mins and you still had no desire for it ?

I've seen much worse this season to be honest and while I can't disagree with anyone who claims Big Sam was in general pretty rubbish in his time here I believed in time even under Ashley he'd have turned us around in terms of top 8 which we would all kill for right now. Not that my points are about Big Sam himself, more what his appointment meant in terms of how FS saw the future, recognised the past and his plans to turn the club around on and off the pitch. Lets remember when he was appointed most fans were in favour and even those that didn't like him or rate him highly nor wanted him here recognised that what he believed in, science, diet, fitness, scouting, building from the back and his experience at working with small budgets was very much inline with what was needed at the club and indeed required. I believe the arrival of a man worth £2bn lifted expectations and upped the preasure levels. I mean as soon as Ashley took over many on here were debating what that meant for Big Sam and whether the goalposts had moved and did we now require a different type of manager. That was always in the backs of fans' heads, not all of course but a good number, increasing the likelihood of less patience. Mind the loss to Derby didn't do him any fabours, nor his tactics and some of the team's performances. All I know is I was happy when he was appointed, could see some sense in it all and some hope for the future, a one that was better than what we had seen under Souness and Roeder. Today I have zero hope and see no sense in any of Ashley's so-called plans. I guarantee they will fail unless he appoints a competent manager and gives that man full control and even then there is no guarantee. couldn't agree more about needing to appoint a competent manager.

we can argue this way and that over wether we'd have been better off or not under fred/allardyce (i personally think allardyce would have took us down),even if he hadn't i'm not at all sure,given the financial state of the club, wether fred and co would have got more credit to cover the losses let alone team building. wasn't it fred who once said he'd like to take the club off the stock market as it is easier to finance as a private concern ? also with the land development thing. i understand the reason it didn't go ahead was certain people massivly overvalued it.

Nope, not at all. The funny thing is, I've agreed with 80% of what you've said over the years on forums. My difficulty with you is not a footballing disagreement, it's more the fact that I'd have a hell of a lot more respect for you if you gave straight answers and acknowledge that other people have opinions. Sometimes things are more complex than a yes or no, but I try to give such answers when its possible. For instance, Mike Ashley is a s*** owner who hasn't got a clue what he's doing, and Shola AMeobi will never be a premiership footballer while he has a hole in his arse. I've repeated these statements quite often when people have said differently, and it isn't because I don't acknowledge they have opinions, you could say they don't acknowledge I have one too. Unfortunately Mike Ashley is now proving he's a s*** owner without a clue and Shola Ameobi has shown over the past 2 years that those who said he was a ready replacement for Shearer were talking crap. I said Luque was s*** after his first game, and got all sorts of grief for that, it was my opinion, I stuck to it, but didn't tell anybody they weren't allowed to disagree ?? So what do you mean exactly. I'll admit that I got it wrong over Allardyce, but I still think he is a good manager and it just didn't work out for him here for whatever reasons. I'll admit that also giving Roeder a chance was a mistake, but at the time I thought it had merit, I'm not one of those who goes down the hindsight route in a state of denial. Having said that, we still finished 7th, which was a rare event before 1992 and if Ashley does this then plenty of people will be doing cartwheels, just like they cheered Souness for finishing 14th after booing Bobby Robsons team for only finishing 5th. Still, as you say, they had an opinion. Pity it was bollocks eh ? Just like Ashley now in fact. He's a disaster. This club is heading for relegation under him, its just a matter of time. all you have to do now is address the financial situation the club was in,in the spring of 2007 and i think we could have this thread wrapped up for good tonight. I've answered you. The Ashley way is not the way back, its only the way to relegation and more years of grief, far worse than the last few. You got your wish, the Halls and Shepherd have now gone, I hope you think the club is in better hands, because I don't. you don't see the last few seasons as a progression...i (and a few others) do. you said yourself what allardyce was brought in to do,that is what ashley is having to do. the idea of spending (borrowing more) to compete was gone...the risk failed. my answer to you is that from our position,borrowing more wasn't the way back,only backwards and very quickly.

Nope, not at all. The funny thing is, I've agreed with 80% of what you've said over the years on forums. My difficulty with you is not a footballing disagreement, it's more the fact that I'd have a hell of a lot more respect for you if you gave straight answers and acknowledge that other people have opinions. Sometimes things are more complex than a yes or no, but I try to give such answers when its possible. For instance, Mike Ashley is a s*** owner who hasn't got a clue what he's doing, and Shola AMeobi will never be a premiership footballer while he has a hole in his arse. I've repeated these statements quite often when people have said differently, and it isn't because I don't acknowledge they have opinions, you could say they don't acknowledge I have one too. Unfortunately Mike Ashley is now proving he's a s*** owner without a clue and Shola Ameobi has shown over the past 2 years that those who said he was a ready replacement for Shearer were talking crap. I said Luque was s*** after his first game, and got all sorts of grief for that, it was my opinion, I stuck to it, but didn't tell anybody they weren't allowed to disagree ?? So what do you mean exactly. I'll admit that I got it wrong over Allardyce, but I still think he is a good manager and it just didn't work out for him here for whatever reasons. I'll admit that also giving Roeder a chance was a mistake, but at the time I thought it had merit, I'm not one of those who goes down the hindsight route in a state of denial. Having said that, we still finished 7th, which was a rare event before 1992 and if Ashley does this then plenty of people will be doing cartwheels, just like they cheered Souness for finishing 14th after booing Bobby Robsons team for only finishing 5th. Still, as you say, they had an opinion. Pity it was bollocks eh ? Just like Ashley now in fact. He's a disaster. This club is heading for relegation under him, its just a matter of time. all you have to do now is address the financial situation the club was in,in the spring of 2007 and i think we could have this thread wrapped up for good tonight.

haha, do you think they are envious of us ? just thinking who you'd like as DOF as they have one. is it denis wise, finding players for people like Capello ? thought it was the very structure not the personnel you were against ? and do you think our finaces compare ? yep, I'm talking about what it takes to succeed here in the premiership. Unfortunately, we don't play in the Spanish League. Don't know how many times you need to be told this, but its a FACT. F - A - C - T. All the successful clubs have shitloads of debt. all the sucessful clubs manage their debt well,operating profits etc....we just build up more year on year, you've admitted as much yourself by saying allardyce was brought in to steady the ship and build a team without spending. we've been here before.

haha, do you think they are envious of us ? just thinking who you'd like as DOF as they have one. is it denis wise, finding players for people like Capello ? thought it was the very structure not the personnel you were against ? and do you think our finaces compare ?