La Parka

Zigic didn't get a fair chance at Valencia imo, brilliant player and would work great in our system, Angulo is (well was) pretty decent and might be a usefull squad player, the others are not good enough..agreed. Agree he hasn't had a fair chance. He came on at the weekend and changed the game. Zigic would be great for us, but isn't heading towards the wrong side of 30? (I may be wrong)... Edit: I was: 27... I think most clubs would take Albelda tbh..

That's as may be, but I'd still call him up to the squad for the upcoming friendly next year, if he's so clearly willing. Especially as we are so average in the position at the moment...

Nail on head. Absolute joke he doesn't start in the 4-3-3. He is ideal to be the most attack minded of the three. In 4-4-2 I see the sense in leaving him out: He is a bit of a luxury in the middle, Sam prefers grafters who get stck in ahead of creativity.

I'd like to echo the points made by these two posters. Where has chopping and changing got us over the last few years? Nowhere. As long as he improves on last season this season (ie: top 12 or so) and then builds on that the season after I can't see the point in changing our manager. Sam's signings have perhaps been hit and miss but we have to remeber how much dead wood was left over from the Roeder and Souness days. Players who were overpriced, over injured and rubbish. We saw something like 11 players out over the summer with 9 or so coming in. The first window, as previously mentioned has been hit and miss, with some players being un replaced (Mainly Dire and Solano - Evident in our lack of Right sided players) however, when you look at the squad from say Fulham, 6 new signings were playing. Now I know we should be seeing them working as a team, there have been some good spells of play, Arsenal for one. I think, once Sam has another summer window he really can get the players he needs to play the formations he is comfortable with, and, at present, we look poor where players can't do what is asked of him. In my opinion he deserves time. He needs to get his squad together, get them playing his way. Changing again would be pointless. Another problem, not with Sam but the fans is the immense expectation. We are not a top 6 club, we are not even top 10. Yes we have good fans (sometimes) a nice stadium however are we really a more attractive proposition than Villa, Man City, Everton or even Blackburn? Attracting the right players is going to be hard, and, we will have to hope Sam can attract what he needs for his side to work, and, for that, he needs the chairmans backing.

He's hardly been shit this season. Not a bad keeper, much improved this season. Good reflexes, sometimes a bit too eager to get off his line and not so bad in the air. Robert Green is being largely ignored. Probably because he has been in an average West Ham side, but he has been one of the best in the league this season. He is a pretty good all round keeper, very few mistakes, solid and a good option IMO.

.....................Green..................... Sagna...Ferdinand...Galls.....Evra Ronaldo.Fabregas..Elano..Petrov ..............Torres..Anelka.............. Pour moi.

It was a well placed shot because Barnes had time to place it and Given was unsighted; the despairing slide by Barton showed how dangerous he felt the situation was. It does seem churlish to add this to a list of alleged gaffes and seems more like making the facts fit the argument. You didn't mention the x-ray vision. I thought these footballers were always told to keep there eye on the ball. I agree s**** like Butt & Rosie are not likely to protect a goalkeeper that much but there are a lot of shots from outside the box flying past Shay this season. Thing is, if they actually did their job, Shay would have very few longshots to save! (biased, as I am a keeper though ) Well thats a GIVEN But Derby only had two shots on target & scored twice. :-[ Both could have been stopped if Roz got his foot in. Especially the second..

We all know the player we really need is a big, strong striker. Dean Ashton. Please Mike!

It was a well placed shot because Barnes had time to place it and Given was unsighted; the despairing slide by Barton showed how dangerous he felt the situation was. It does seem churlish to add this to a list of alleged gaffes and seems more like making the facts fit the argument. You didn't mention the x-ray vision. I thought these footballers were always told to keep there eye on the ball. I agree s**** like Butt & Rosie are not likely to protect a goalkeeper that much but there are a lot of shots from outside the box flying past Shay this season. Thing is, if they actually did their job, Shay would have very few longshots to save! (biased, as I am a keeper though )

Any goal from the edge of the area, in the style of Giles barnes goal is the fault of the defence as much as the goalkeeper.

Steady on I'm sorry I rate him, although I realise that rating our own players is tantamount to a crime on this board. I rate him too, and rating our own is like a crime on here I agree, but overrating them is also popular on here too. He's good, nothing more. ...for those who play predominantly on the left I only have Ronaldo, Hleb, Bentley and Giggs ahead of him. For me he is neck and neck with the likes of Ashey Young, Petrov etc..Given the chance regularly on the left that is. I have Malouda, Ronaldo, Giggs, Rosiky, Diouf, Pedersen, Young, Petrov, Taylor, Utaka, and Downing as either better or just as good on their day. FYP. Malouda is slightly better than Zoggy currently but won't be long term. He comes inside too much and rarely takes on his man without diving..Abidal is the last Malouda...now switched back to left back at Barca. Niether of them are as fluid as Zogg. This is Giggs last season and he often moves into the middle in the second half these days. Rosicky is a CM who drifts wide on the left when Hleb switches wings to the right. Wenger would love Zoggy on the left for Arsenal. Diouf is a joke right? Petrov is slightly better but much older. Taylor? No. Utaka is a right winger. Downing is basically s*** who can't beat his man and has no pace. Diouf's actually good on both flanks. He's not a winger but he doesn't half cause problems with his quick feet, high energy levels and his attitude. Not to mention his pace. I think he's a smashing player and I'd love to see him here. Could be a possibility in Jan perhaps. Agree, underrated as a player, who's talent is tainted by his attitude. A good player, twat though

Not just this season, including the last, or even the Souness, SBR era, yes he did have some flashes but I do think he performs, on average, the best in LB. You are right that the evidence isn't that much, and I also agree we should give him a run at LW to see how he performs first, but is it really a bad idea to convert him into a LB, which the France U-21 manager also share the same view? He is s*** in positioning but some of his tackling and movement is good, I can still remember that great heading he made during the match versus Asenal, the one that direct save us a goal. I can see where you are coming from, but a lot of his good defensive work is down to his pace. He backs off a lot when he is one on one with a winger allowing them to get a cross in, he loses his positioning an awful lot... however.. it is a new role to him, and perhaps, with more work he could be a good leftback. Whether Sam saw this in traning or went for the old square pegs trick we wont know. Its clear Duff and Milner are the preferred wingers at present, at least in Sams mind...

I think Harewood trying to remove his colon has affected his game a little. Given is still a good keeper, I am not sure he is fully back to his best yet. To be fair to him he needs the defence to actually close down a little first, shots like that shouldn't even be getting through them...

I'd do the same with Owen too. If we want to play 4-3-3 Ashton is the man for the job IMO.

Dave, just a question, don't you think Charles attack better when he plays at LB? I remember when he plays LW he isn't that productive. How many times has he started on the wing though? I see what you're saying, but it stands to reason that his attributes should be used where they can do the most damage. Not to mention the fact he's pap at defending. Mainly his positioning, but it makes sense seen as though he has played his whole life on the wing. He also loses the ball frequently at left back, trying to pass it out. I agree he needs to be pushed forward, to the left wing. I agree he is a good player and has the potential to be a really good talent. He needs the games, the training and the personal attributes to push on and become the player he has the potential to be.

1. I did believe that we are an attractive team for managing in the past but now I didn't. Just think, for the last 6 years, how many world class managers have come to England: Mourinho, Benitez, Ramos, Eriksson...ONeill, Grant and Jol arguable but they do have qualities. And that what we get was shittest manager in the league. Yea you can claim that Shepherd was the major factor but on the otherhand I don't think he was stubborn enough to turn down someone like Hitzfield. And ok now what we get is Sam, imo a risky but good choice but definitely not in the same class as Mourinho and Benitez. Is that really mad to think we aren't really that attractive? 2. Ok, this is very arguable I know, but in my opinion you should NEVER think Sam wanna turns Newcastle into another Bolton who just know long ball, header and luck. Again, this is very arguable, but here is my understanding. Sam is a defense-first type manager for sure, and the first priority he is doing in Newcastle is to implement his DEFENSE TACTIC which is proven in Bolton. I am ok for this, and I also don't think anyone will object about this right? If we just evaluate our defense this season, is that really our defense tactic is s***? Or is that some of our playey becomes Bramble again and cost us silly goals? Think again, Fulham, Derby, etc, many goals we lose this season were due to silly mistake of Cacapa and Rozehnal, or the unstoppable fluke goals. When we are using Taylor and Faye, who are less error-prone, our defense looks the most solid one we have since Robson era, even though we are having a LB who is frequently out of position. You can blame Sam for buying two s*** centre back, which is really his fault---f****** hell the Rozehnal is since the worse version of Andy O'Brien---but other than that Sam has really did a great job for our defense. I am particularly impressed by his effort for trying to restore our pressing in Robson era. It is completely different from the one under Souness, which our player just running like headless chicken. The defense is much more systematic and consistent---ok, except the s*** errors by the new Bramble/OBrien. The major problem is our offense. Here why I still defend Sam is because I think it is unfair to judge him by Bolton's style. Look at the players he had. Yea you can said they have Diouf, Anelka, or even Okocha or Campo etc but the truth is the players are just s***, so s*** that they are facing relegation immediately. If you are the manager would you ask these type of players, who were acquired due to extremely limited of funds, to play beautiful footballs? In another words, and it is a matter of belief that, do you think Sam is really willing to play like that or just he is forced to? Yea I know everyone will fire me for this and saying what we are doing now is the proof, but I do have different views. In my opinion, he is trying to consolidate the defense, in the highest order, that attacking type players like Emre are sacrificed. Then he will start to make some attacking plays, like long ball, left side attack etc which will not affect our defense. So our attack is simply limited by the players like Butt, Smith, etc who are good tacklers but never a good passer. We are a club much bigger than Bolton, and for sure we should be able to supply more resources to him. My argument here is, due to his preference in consolidating defense and limited human resource(face it), he is forced to play like that. If he has more time and resources, spend some cash and bring in the players he want like Okocha, I don't think he will still ask the team to attack like that. We can definitely play a lot better if we have better players. Just an example, when we have Duff back to the left last game, we really have two wingers and start to play like what we are in the past. He knows how to do it, just he didn't. So here is another problem, which I do think he should be blamed, is that he is clearly showing the message of "I don't care about this season's result", and that's why even Wullie is firing at him. I really understand this and the season ticket holder is calling his head for this. "Oh my god why do that?" "We can play better!" I also have such questions before the Arsenal game but now I understand why: he has written this season off and use it for rebuilding and training his tactics. This is consistent with his words at the start of the season. At that time, he has already claimed that he needs time and ask us to be patient until he can really do something. At that time, I do believe everyone like me thinks that the message is "Sorry the club is problematic and I need a lot of time to change things." And his statement has been already forgotten after the excellent start of the season that we think "The team is good and is capable of a top 6 finish." I think this is correct too, but that makes his message silly right? You can do it immediately then why ask for 2 seasons time? And now when I look back our results, our performances, I think what Sam Allardyce really meant at that time is "Sorry lads, result is not my priority this season, you gotta face a difficult time until I accomplish my tactics, get in the players I want and trained them well." Result is sacrificed for his long term plan, and that's what he meant, in my opinion. The strongest proof, and the only proof I have, is the flashing quality we have made sometimes this season. I don't think people will argue about this too. In our normal setup things are really poor, but sometimes we can also play like a team that definitely can have a top 6 finish. The substitution of Emre, Duff, the hold up play of Viduka and Smith, and impressive pressing tactics we performed during Arsenal...all these are simply non-existent for the last 3-4 years. I know it's f****** irritating to watch the team playing when it's f****** obvious to change a very simple bit and play a lot better, but it's so silly that people either think he is mentally retarded or he is forcing a contract termination by Ashley. But for me, as he has already announced that he needs time and his only priority this season is our defense but not our result, I will give him time to do that. I am also very depressed if we really become the 2nd Bolton but I will only judge that after he has completed his tactics. If he plays long ball, header and luck again I must be on your side, cursing him to die and suffer in Hell etc anything you like. But now, at least now, I understand what he's doing, and I think it is possible that he can success, so I will give him the time he asked, 2 seasons. Top post! I hope you are right in section 2. We just need to give him time. Change is the last thing we need.

Also give us some nice presents in the January sales

Allardyce can only have himself to blame if that's the case, he spent £18 million on Smith, Barton and Enrique. He's brought in 9 players so has the basis of a full team of his own players if he wanted to play them, it might even be slightly more balanced than the one he actually does pick. £18m sadly buys you average players today Mick, which is what all those players he signed are (at the moment anyway). You rarely get in good quality for £18m. I mean West Ham spent that much on Nobby, Dyer and Parker from us which just goes to show you what you get or rather what you don't for your money. Of course you can buy some quality even for little, Beye for example and Viduka on a free, but in generall you need big big money to break away from mid-table, ala Man City. Or you can do it by slowly building the squad, weeding out the tat and bringing in quality over time like Everton have done. Blackburn are fantastic at buying cheap and doing well: Nelson: Free Warnock: 2m Samba: 250k Emerton: 2.5m Bentley: Undisclosed (bet it wasn't a lot) Pederson: 2.5m Robbie Savage: 2m Tuguy: Nominal Fee Roque Santa Cruz: 3m Beni Mc Carthy: 2.5m For the price of one Michael Owen. Less even. The main obsevation from my point of view is the fact Hughes was given *time* to build. Everton is a similar story. Hughes has a pretty good transfer record though. That is good never realised. 4 of those would walk into our side. My best friend is a Blackburn Fan. Samba is an absolute rock. The best 250k ever? Santa Cruz was a stupidly good bargain also! I'd take Bentley, Nelson, Samba, Warnock, Santa Cruz without thinking tbh. Benni is a bit of a strange one. He has been very dissapointing this season. Blackburn fans dislike him. .......................Given...................... Beye....Nelson....Samba....Warnock Bentley..Savage....Emre.....Charles ..............Martins...Santa Cruz........

Allardyce can only have himself to blame if that's the case, he spent £18 million on Smith, Barton and Enrique. He's brought in 9 players so has the basis of a full team of his own players if he wanted to play them, it might even be slightly more balanced than the one he actually does pick. £18m sadly buys you average players today Mick, which is what all those players he signed are (at the moment anyway). You rarely get in good quality for £18m. I mean West Ham spent that much on Nobby, Dyer and Parker from us which just goes to show you what you get or rather what you don't for your money. Of course you can buy some quality even for little, Beye for example and Viduka on a free, but in generall you need big big money to break away from mid-table, ala Man City. Or you can do it by slowly building the squad, weeding out the tat and bringing in quality over time like Everton have done. Blackburn are fantastic at buying cheap and doing well: Nelson: Free Warnock: 2m Samba: 250k Emerton: 2.5m Bentley: Undisclosed (bet it wasn't a lot) Pederson: 2.5m Robbie Savage: 2m Tuguy: Nominal Fee Roque Santa Cruz: 3m Beni Mc Carthy: 2.5m For the price of one Michael Owen. Less even. The main obsevation from my point of view is the fact Hughes was given *time* to build. Everton is a similar story. Hughes has a pretty good transfer record though.

Agree HTT. I could name at least 5 players in those teams who would be good enough to take starting positions. We don't have anything pn them. We are the weaker team. (Villa lack depth though).

Although I posted this in the Smith thread it is probably more relevant here. To sum it up: -Chopping and changing is slowly killing us -The Club has potential but.. -Some of us vastly overrate us, think we are still top 6 material and expect signings of the quality the top 4 would attract.. Just my POV.

...............Given................... Beye..Faye..Taylor..Enrique Milner..Butt..Emre..Charles .........Martins.Duke............ Harper, Rozenhal, Barton, Smith, Geremi Never going to happen like..

Nail on head. Top post

Merry Christmas!

He is not the best granted. But look at it realistically. We are nothing more than a mid table club, along with the likes of Villa, W-Ham. Pompey, Everton and Blackburn are all way ahead of us. They have stuck with their managers, given them time to build a team. When dire went who did people expect? Diego? Modric? We need to get real. Yes , we have huge potential, a good fanbase but we have gone so far backwards since Robson! People need to be realistic! So many clubs have taken over us whilst we chopped, changed and allow nothing managers tear the heart out of the club. Smith, a grafter yes. Probably the best we could attract at the time. We need to use what we have, get ourseves back up with the second tier boys. This won't happen overnight. It might take a few seasons, it needs good management, solid leadership and teamwork. I know this rant is barely related to Smith but we need to be realistic. We are no longer the top 6 club people think we are. Sad, but true..