Flip

Pfeile (Arrows) - 1. FC Magdeburg gegen Berliner AK 07 - 25.03.2012 - www.sportfotos-md.de FC Magdeburg fans helping out their team who havent scored for 5 straight games. :lol: Class. Sorry if Giggs.

Agreed, which says anyone saying Barcelona is a one man team is absolutely f***ing daft. (although I do feel the debate whether who is better between him and Zidane is interesting) As I like to say, Messi sits on the throne that Xavi builds for him. In my opinion, even if Messi is clearly the focus of our team, we need both. You need more than both to be the best team in the world. Iniesta, Busquets (just excellent), Dani Alves who has the most assist in the league. 5 players are fundamental to your team. (Puyol, Pique and Abidal are good but they can still IMO be changed for other three equally good defenders) Its your passing game with those 5 that is so fucking beautiful vhough.

Zidane had a higher peak than Xavi, and if you judge on that he was the better player. Absolutely unstoppable on his day. Daniel Andersson who played for Bari said he had to mark and defend Zidane even when they were on the attack. Said it was the most difficult job to do because of his strength and ballprotecting ability. Xavi is more consistent, doubt Ive ever seen Xavi have a really really bad game.

Agreed, which says anyone saying Barcelona is a one man team is absolutely fucking daft. (although I do feel the debate whether who is better between him and Zidane is interesting)

Come on Villarreal!

Senna scores!!!!

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/01/21/1226250/052662-lionel-messi-amp-pele.jpg http://media.indiatimes.in/media/content/2011/Dec/diego-maradona1_1322823578_640x640.jpg http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01405/snf1126a---682_1405586a.jpg

Put €15 on Chelsea. Returns €70.

Not like Adriano though. Fucking waste of talent those guys!

Oh yeah, there is no doubt of who is the better player.

And Foluwashola, your statement is ridiculous, its a bit like saying we cant discuss WWII because no one was there to experience it. Bunch of book written about it and match videos. What? Didn't say you can't discuss Pele, it is simply ridiculous to compare him to Messi. I'm sure many match videos do exist, but have the many people who get involved in s**** playground arguments like this realistically watched hundreds of black & white videos? I doubt it. I realise you see yourself as some sort of Brazilian, but let the past go bro. Let Lucas Leiva usher in the new generation of Brazilian domination Some sort of Brazilian Im born in Europe but whole family is from Brazil and Im a Brazilian citizen man . And Lucas Leiva gives me nightmares, and I struggle to understand why Liverpool supporters thinks hes good.

And Foluwashola, your statement is ridiculous, its a bit like saying we cant discuss WWII because no one was there to experience it. Bunch of book written about it and match videos.

Whole match footages from back then do exist you know?

Call it pub teams and then mentions Garrincha who played for one of these pub teams. And then forgets he still won three World Cups that he played in which at the time was the biggest you could win (still is imo but many think CL). Shouldve been every year and he wouldve won it 10 times. Oh and Pele went to play Eusebio and his Benfica (classed as one of the best teams in Europe of all time) and Pele scored 5 goals in 2 games while Eusebio managed 1. One year before he went to San Siro and played Maldini and trappatonis European Champions and scored twice. Both times he won the Intercontinental Cup. Also these pub teams youre talking about that he played against, Penarol, Independiente and these were the teams that bummed all of the European teams in the early 60s in Intercontinental Cups. People underestimate the size of South American league football, just because it aint as strong today as it used to be. Pubteams you mention were the best team in the World, and Pele was the greatest of them all. I don't know why you're saying all this, Garrincha and Eusebio were considered up there with Pele for many years, no one has been considered up there with Messi, maybe someone will come along, who knows. Because, CRonaldo, Iniesta, Xavi, RVP etc. are all there man. Pele was so much ahead of the others its crazy. Garrincha 2nd best player at the time was uncomparable to Pele. Pele went and scored three against them in the Libertadores when Botafogo had players such as Zagallo, Garrincha, Nilton Santos, Jairzinho. It would be like Messi beating a team consisting of CRonaldo, David Silva, Iniesta, RVP and himself playing with Danny Simpson, Mike Williamson and so on.

He wont leave Barcelona so he has to carry Argentina, which he wont, but he could at least try and make them a decent team. Not sure what I said to give you the impression I don't understand all those things. My comment to the bolded part probably should have included a as well. I think it's nearly impossible to compare players from different eras in any sport. It's always fun to debate and good points can be made on either side, but in the end everyone has their own opinion on what matters and what doesn't.

Call it pub teams and then mentions Garrincha who played for one of these pub teams. And then forgets he still won three World Cups that he played in which at the time was the biggest you could win (still is imo but many think CL). Shouldve been every year and he wouldve won it 10 times. Oh and Pele went to play Eusebio and his Benfica (classed as one of the best teams in Europe of all time) and Pele scored 5 goals in 2 games while Eusebio managed 1. One year before he went to San Siro and played Maldini and trappatonis European Champions and scored twice. Both times he won the Intercontinental Cup. Also these pub teams youre talking about that he played against, Penarol, Independiente and these were the teams that bummed all of the European teams in the early 60s in Intercontinental Cups. People underestimate the size of South American league football, just because it aint as strong today as it used to be. Pubteams you mention were the best team in the World, and Pele was the greatest of them all.

timeEd What you dont seem to grasp is that football has developed in a way to help players more. Protection from referee, balls that is harder for the goalies to defend, better pitches, shoes that are made for a player to maximize and optimize his ability on the pitch. If Pele and Messi were born at the same time, I think for sure Pele would be the better player based on pure talent, on pure domination and sheer intelligence on the pitch (man is a moron outside of it). You have to compare every era, and Pele was much further ahead of his competition than Messi is of his. He wont leave Barcelona so he has to carry Argentina, which he wont, but he could at least try and make them a decent team.

First of all, well done for interpreting stuff to your own advantage. 2nd of all, World Cup is the biggest football tournament in the World, like it or not, just because your national team is f***ing s*** doesnt mean the rest of the World doest see it like that. With that said the Argentinian people wont consider Messi the best until he wins a World Cup. Also with comfort zone I dont mean leaving Barcelona, absolutely not, if you had read my post prior to the one you quotes I have said over and over again that Messi should stay at Barcelona for ever. However, he needs to produce at international level with Argentina. You cannot say you are the best ever if you cant make a team consisting of the best players in the World a top national side. Argentinas national team is quite embarassing and Messi inability to adapt to different systems is a large part to it. Also Di Stefano, Eusebio, Cruyff are not top three of all time because they never wonthe World Cup. Di Stefano won 4-5 straight Champions League titles yet never considered the best in his country (when will Messi do that?? ). Please understand where I am coming from. If you put Messi onto the pitch with Pele, Messi would be a much better player, but I try to view it from the perspective of who was the best with the resources they had? Pele was treated 10 times worse than Messi by opposition. (yellow card or subs didnt even exist back then and just watch footage of the 1966 World Cup and you will see what I am talking about) Pele was more dominant in his era than Messi is in his. Pele was more complete as a player. Pele stopped a war. (Nigerian Civil War) Pele won three World Cups. (although one was all due to Garrincha) Pele scored over 1000 -official- goals (many of those games are considered friendlies nowadays but wasnt the same back then if you read about past football history. I mean those -friendlies- came against top European sides who Pele refused to sign with and who he absolutely dominated.) Pele also managed to get sent off and put back on the field by the oppositions president as they told the referee to leave the arena for being unfair towards Pele for sending him off. (wont happen nowadays obviously, but just shows how big and important he was in his time) I love Messi, I always discuss how Neymar is from a different planet, but how Messi is from an even further one. So dont get me wrong, just dont get the wrong impression of Pele or Maradona for that matter. Oh right i knew not reading the other 20+ pages would do me in For whats its worth i agree with what you have said, also btw my father is Spanish and Spain are the best in the world and i am inclined to support them so it has nothing to do with that. Just the overall level of WC's since the 80s has been easily lower than club level IMO, i just think WC has far too much weight on someones career and how people remember it. I used the Zidane and Ronaldo example for a reason, no one seems to remember the great work they did for thier clubs for years and just remember those handful of games at the WC. For sure WC should be used in the discussion to decide if someone's career is all time great worthy but it shouldnt be a deciding factor. Take Cannavaro for example, without 2010 WC no one would even talk about him and rightly so as thiers atleast half a dozen CB's that during his time that was better than him. Fair enough, you are obviously entitled to your own opinion and I agree with some. I do however feel that you need to make sure to write the right year Cannavaro won the WC Joking aside, I do agree with a lot but do you understand where I am coming from. Messi wont be considered the best in Argentina until he wins a World Cup and how can he be considered the best of all time but not even the best in his home country ? And I for hope Messi keeps on playing at this level its amazing and I hope he doesnt do a Brazilian and stop all of vhe sudden. Dont agree with this part at all. How far ahead is he of CRonaldo, Iniesta, Xavi, Cesc, and dare I say RvP and Zlatan? He is not that far ahead, hes a better player but to say its phenomenal to see how far ahead he is is beyond craziness imo.

Wtf has that got to do with football? Messi cured AIDS. No he didnt and it only proves how big of a star he was. How good h was if he could stop a war for people to watch him play.

This strikes me as very defensive, tbh. As I've discussed with Sewelly before, no one bases "world's greatest ever" purely on their World Cup play, but why do Messi fans seem so absolutely dismissive of it, as though it were a pre-season friendly or a kick in the park with your son? It does not provide a full measure of a player's greatness, but why can it not be a component part of an assessment? I am not a Messi fan, i just find it weird how WC is rated so high above everything else...... For example, people rate Ronaldo and Zidane pretty much purely for thier WC performances when ever you say to the average football fan they would say " did you see him for Brazil at that WC" It's like thier club performances is completely ignored and its not like the level of football at WC's in recent of years have been any higher than a standard CL knockout phase. Oh and it can be part of the assessment i just dont think it should be the defining factor to decide who is a GOAT or not. ? ? ?

This strikes me as very defensive, tbh. As I've discussed with Sewelly before, no one bases "world's greatest ever" purely on their World Cup play, but why do Messi fans seem so absolutely dismissive of it, as though it were a pre-season friendly or a kick in the park with your son? It does not provide a full measure of a player's greatness, but why can it not be a component part of an assessment? Felipao does Not going to bite since I have stated over and over again why I dont consider Messi the best of all time. Ridiculous to say I do when I dont, it sure is an important criteria but isnt only because of that. So read again, read right

First of all, well done for interpreting stuff to your own advantage. 2nd of all, World Cup is the biggest football tournament in the World, like it or not, just because your national team is fucking shit doesnt mean the rest of the World doest see it like that. With that said the Argentinian people wont consider Messi the best until he wins a World Cup. Also with comfort zone I dont mean leaving Barcelona, absolutely not, if you had read my post prior to the one you quotes I have said over and over again that Messi should stay at Barcelona for ever. However, he needs to produce at international level with Argentina. You cannot say you are the best ever if you cant make a team consisting of the best players in the World a top national side. Argentinas national team is quite embarassing and Messi inability to adapt to different systems is a large part to it. Also Di Stefano, Eusebio, Cruyff are not top three of all time because they never wonthe World Cup. Di Stefano won 4-5 straight Champions League titles yet never considered the best in his country (when will Messi do that?? ). Please understand where I am coming from. If you put Messi onto the pitch with Pele, Messi would be a much better player, but I try to view it from the perspective of who was the best with the resources they had? Pele was treated 10 times worse than Messi by opposition. (yellow card or subs didnt even exist back then and just watch footage of the 1966 World Cup and you will see what I am talking about) Pele was more dominant in his era than Messi is in his. Pele was more complete as a player. Pele stopped a war. (Nigerian Civil War) Pele won three World Cups. (although one was all due to Garrincha) Pele scored over 1000 -official- goals (many of those games are considered friendlies nowadays but wasnt the same back then if you read about past football history. I mean those -friendlies- came against top European sides who Pele refused to sign with and who he absolutely dominated.) Pele also managed to get sent off and put back on the field by the oppositions president as they told the referee to leave the arena for being unfair towards Pele for sending him off. (wont happen nowadays obviously, but just shows how big and important he was in his time) I love Messi, I always discuss how Neymar is from a different planet, but how Messi is from an even further one. So dont get me wrong, just dont get the wrong impression of Pele or Maradona for that matter.