Flip

Don't know if Giggs, but apparently De Gea was seen and then taken into office by security as he and his friend ate a doughnought in Tesco and then tried to leave without paying (all according to some shit swedish newspaper however).

I love Shola, I'd love to see him sitting on our bench till his late 60's. However, him on the pitch itself is a fucking no go. He's little brother is better than him ffs.

Lets hope they lose and that he aint finished.

f*** that s***. Spot on Ali. How the fuck is this possible?

Ummmmm vvvvv You sound like NE5 dude! Chill! I have answered your question when I clarified that I was on about Messi bringing it to the international stage, and not necessarily about leaving Barca to pursue club football elsewhere. Johnnypd made the same points I've been trying to make, in that Messi needs to show that he can have enough influence on games, and win tournaments by himself, the way Maradona most notably had done in 86. He HASN'T been shafted out wide in the national side man, watch the Copa matches and you'll see. So even under Crazy Diego getting 6 assists at the World Cup isn't showing how he can boss the team. If Argentina had a half competent manager at the helm they would have gone to the WC finals. He had a poor performance at the Copa America as did the whole Argentina team and yet in 2011 he still has managed an assist a game playing for Argentina. Dont forget that if Argentina had of won the penalty shoot out they probably would have won the tournament and again they were under the guidense of another absolute nut job in Batista. I think under Sabella you will finally see Messi come into his own for the Argentina national team. If he fails under Sabella I will be willing to agree he has not replecated his Barca form internationally but this is the first coach he has had since he has become an established star who isn't completely bat s*** crazy. Since when? Messi had one assist during the whole World Cup and that was to Tevez when he scored against Mexico and he was offside so shouldn't have counted. Not saying he wasn't good but don't invent stats!

I agree with a lot but what had Ronaldo been without his injuries. At Messis age Ronaldo was just as good, he could win matches in the same way as Messi did with three different clubs with inferior squads to what Barcelona has today. I'm not saying Messi isn't the best, but a big part is down to him playing with Iniesta, Xavi, Ronaldinho in the beginning, now Cesc, Villa he's never had to do it on his own. Cesc has 4 goals and 4 assist in 5 La Liga games this season and he's a midfielder. That says alot about the current state of the Barcelona team. Ronaldo had inferior squads except at Real Madrid possibly but that was just individual brilliant players and that after he had been two whole years out of the game. Messi is the more achieved player, but I cannot say I'm 100% sure I think Messi was a better player than Ronaldo was at this age.

But Tony Pulis has to be the manager, its all about stability.

Ummmmm vvvvv Points 2, 3 and 4 are utter bullshit though tbh. He plays as a false-nr 9, which he plays for Barcelona. He wasn't very good during Copa America, he was also given a free role by Maradona during the WC. Pele in 1970 had a better team around him, Argentina in 86' didn't however than Messi had in 2010. Milito, Tevez, Aguero, Higuain were all topscorers in the best leagues in the world. Coach stability didn't exist back then, like I mentioned Peles manager in 1958 was a lazy obese manager who slept on the bench due to medication. Messi should be able to do it anyways, referring to the last point. If he was THAT good he'd be able to dominate the likes of Peru, Bolivia, Colombia and so on, which he doesn't.

I use my eyes, and I can't see how Messi will ever be considered better than Maradona let alone Pele if he can't even be that in his own country. In footballistic terms, Pele was much more impressive as a player at this age, you can argue all along but he has to do it on the international scene (with national team) at some point. Where have I said he is or will be better than the two players you've mentioned? For the record, I'm not fond of comparing players over different generations, too many variables, not a fair test or whatever it was they used to say in GCSE Science! I just find the lines about him having to leave Barca or do it all on his own for Argentina (who had a insane coke head as manager last World Cup) to somehow prove himself are lazy and misinformed at best. He delivers it in the Champions League every single season for Barca and to the person that said Barca would probably be as good without Messi. I would personally say, no, no they wouldn't. He's streets ahead of any player at the moment IMO and has been for the past 2 or 3 years. Agreed with the bold bit, but you cannot say that anyone expects Messi to do it on his own. But with the players he have around him in the national team he should be able to do it just if he was able to adapt to the different roles.

Pele did it with the national team, I for one aint arguing he has to do it with f***ing Stoke because no one wants or would be able to making that turd team into a good one. However, like ive said at some point he has to do it with the national team, he's been non-existant with the Argentinian side and that's not consistency. Which brings me back to my original argument that in their respective national teams Pele and Maradona had it a lot easier than Messi does. Argentina have turned the coaching position in to a complete circus and there has been no stability recently especially with giving the role to Maradona who leaves a lot to be desired regarding tactical decisions. Pele did show it by winning 3 world cups didn't he? Personally I've never agreed with comparisons between players when one of them is still in the early years of his career. Take for example the Shearer vs Rooney debate. I don't think we can debate that properly until Rooney has retired and we can take look at both of their stats. By the time Messi has retired, we'll have a clearer idea of where he ranks among the world's greatest ever. Again I'll say, by the time he's hung up his boots, IMO he will be considered the greatest that ever lived. If his career were to end tomorrow though, he wouldn't be. When did this change from a debate discussing club career to international career must have missed that memo. Read above for my take on why Messi hasn't "delivered" at an international level. Also add the fact that Diego and Pele were both given free roles in their respective international teams where as Messi keeps getting stuck out on the wing. But my question to you is why does Messi apparently need to leave the Barcelona set up to prove himself when Pele never left Santos (till the end of his career). Both teams were/are the best in the world at the respective times and both had a system set up from the youth teams which both players flourish in. Coaching bla bla bla. 1958, Feola was the Brazilian coach, he used to sleep on the bench. Also Messi has been palying in a free role for the last couple of years with Argentina.

I use my eyes, and I can't see how Messi will ever be considered better than Maradona let alone Pele if he can't even be that in his own country. In footballistic terms, Pele was much more impressive as a player at this age, you can argue all along but he has to do it on the international scene (with national team) at some point. But do you not also agree that South American fans now have higher expectations for players leaving the continent and thus it will be harder for messi to reach that level of appreciation now. The fact is South American's are the best in the world at football and over the years rightly so they have raised there expectations. Look at Hulk and Vanger Love for good examples of raised expectations. 20 years ago they would have been considered amazing now with the ammount of talent being poached by Europe, Asia and the Middle East South American fans have come to expect more of the players that leave. Get the fuck out of here, Vagner Love, I can't seriously believe you just used him as an example. But as you say expectations have risen yes, that's because we export more than thousands of players every year around the world. I mean there are more players of Brazilian origin than any other nationality in the Champions League. Hulk is a good player, but 4 years ago he was playing in the 2nd division of the Japanese football and while he certainly deserves to be in the national team people haven't gotten their eyes on him just yet in Brazil.

Pele did it with the national team, I for one aint arguing he has to do it with fucking Stoke because no one wants or would be able to making that turd team into a good one. However, like ive said at some point he has to do it with the national team, he's been non-existant with the Argentinian side and that's not consistency.

I use my eyes, and I can't see how Messi will ever be considered better than Maradona let alone Pele if he can't even be that in his own country. In footballistic terms, Pele was much more impressive as a player at this age, you can argue all along but he has to do it on the international scene (with national team) at some point.

Sorry that's utter bullshit. Pele didn't start playing until the 3rd game during that World Cup, that after the team had not played very well even though they beat Austria 3-0 and drew to England. That team didn't have freakish ability all over the park, in the 1970 you could possibly say they did, but in 1958 they certainly didn't. In 1962, the World Cup was won by a single player, Garrincha and that in the same way Maradona won 86' but he gets no credit for that outside South America as people tend to forget him when discusing hte greatest of all times. Any team that could beat the Soviets 5 - 2 had to be ridiculously good. The Soviets were favourites to win the tournament for a reason. The 1962 WC shouldn't be counted when rating Pele because as I said he played 3/4 of 1 match the rest of that tournament was Garrincha's. It beat the Soviet Union 2-0 when Pele and Garrincha entered the team, without them I doubt they would've won the World Cup or even that match.

Sorry that's utter bullshit. Pele didn't start playing until the 3rd game during that World Cup, that after the team had not played very well even though they beat Austria 3-0 and drew to England. That team didn't have freakish ability all over the park, in the 1970 you could possibly say they did, but in 1958 they certainly didn't. In 1962, the World Cup was won by a single player, Garrincha and that in the same way Maradona won 86' but he gets no credit for that outside South America as people tend to forget him when discusing hte greatest of all times.

But like I said, it all comes down to talent and who dominated his defenders the most, and in that matter Pele wins. I mean let Messi be consistent for another 8 years before we start talking, I love Messi and all of us Brazilian wish he was Brazilian but there is a long way and a very long way to be considered the greatest of all time. And I to be honest doubt he'll be there to even surpass Maradona. To be the best, you have to stat by being recognized as the best in your own country and I have my doubts he'll be better than Maradona or as the people who experienced the 50s say Di Stefano. Don't forget Di Stefano won the CL 5 times in a row, best player in the World twice scored almost 500goals in 650 matches (and also played for 3 national teams). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9#Goalscoring_and_appearance_record Also includes friendlies and what not. Sure, but remember that Pele wasn't looking for a 1000 goals and Pele's friendlies were games against very very good opposition. At that time the many friendlies were against Argentinian teams and European teams and not like Romario who arranged friendlies himself against non-division sides to score 8 goals a game. Santos played Real Madrid and so on at the time who were considered the best in Europe. Therefore you can count Pele's goals in friendlies as relevant in a way, while Romario was like I said against much much inferior teams. Not disagreeing at all about the goals just making sure that people realise facts as you can see above by themanupstairs saying Pele is greater than Messi because Messi hasn't tested himself outside of Barca. I don't think you quite understand my argument here though. I'm not arguing that Messi is already better than Cryuff, Di Stefano or Puskas yet and I am nowhere near the level of thought that he is better than the two greatest in Maradona and Pele my argument is that people need to stop making excuses to not including him in the top 10 players of all time. The kid is 24 and just became Barca's second highest goal scorer and moved into the Spanish top 20 and that is my point Messi is still only 24 and won't peak for another 4 - 5 years and he is already this good and with the better protection, health and living standards of todays footballers he could go on to play for another 10 years with ease. Don't agree with the bold bit for a slight second. You cannot know that for sure, I mean Raul peaked at 24-25, Fat Ronaldos start to his career was better than Messis and Ronaldo had to adapt to two different leagues as he left Brazil and he also never peaked at 28-29 possibly because of injuries but not certainly down to injuries. I hope you understand what I mean. Messi is very good, but Ronaldo was as good at that age, don't forget that. Ronaldo was running rampage in PSV Eindhoven even though he had a horrific injury spell there too, he was a year younger than Messi was at the time he broke the Barcelona record that Messi broke two years ago. Ronaldo was until 23 better than what Messi was at that age, then injuries crippled him. Also Messi has a such superior group of players around him than what Ronaldo had.

In sydneycoves defence he wasn't actually using that as an argument. It's most that like most he doesn't agree that Messi has to change club, which I for one am against (why would he change, why would he even consider it when he's winning everything) but at the same time at some point in his career he will have to win something big with his national team.

You do realise Pele never played for a European team right? You do realise the only team other than Santos that Pele represented was New york right? You do realise how stupid your statement is now right? I think he has a point, maybe he doesn't have to prove it outside Barcelona at club level, but at some stage he must prove it with Argentina or he wont ever reach the same bracket as the other great ones.

But like I said, it all comes down to talent and who dominated his defenders the most, and in that matter Pele wins. I mean let Messi be consistent for another 8 years before we start talking, I love Messi and all of us Brazilian wish he was Brazilian but there is a long way and a very long way to be considered the greatest of all time. And I to be honest doubt he'll be there to even surpass Maradona. To be the best, you have to stat by being recognized as the best in your own country and I have my doubts he'll be better than Maradona or as the people who experienced the 50s say Di Stefano. Don't forget Di Stefano won the CL 5 times in a row, best player in the World twice scored almost 500goals in 650 matches (and also played for 3 national teams). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9#Goalscoring_and_appearance_record Also includes friendlies and what not. Sure, but remember that Pele wasn't looking for a 1000 goals and Pele's friendlies were games against very very good opposition. At that time the many friendlies were against Argentinian teams and European teams and not like Romario who arranged friendlies himself against non-division sides to score 8 goals a game. Santos played Real Madrid and so on at the time who were considered the best in Europe. Therefore you can count Pele's goals in friendlies as relevant in a way, while Romario was like I said against much much inferior teams.

Except Romario played 200 friendlies against shit opposition to get to that number, Pele wasn't looking for a record hence the 1200+ and Romario like 3-4 goals above 1000 (which is still debatable).

How mature your argument gets ripped to shreds so you try to insult me. Well played. Oh now Puskas, Di Stefano, Platini, Cryuff and Eusebio aren't the greatest. Clutching at straws there son. lol i am 43.. There is only one greatest player to be compared with.. the rest are great players End of .. not going to reply to the thread anymore A 43 year old with the mental capacity of a 12 year old. Fairly sure this is how serial killer movies start........ I hope you enjoyed the complimentry humble pie and egg on your face that came with the complete destruction of your posts over the last 2 pages. Actually I agree with Dontooner. When there's talk about the greatest ever it's f***ing ridiculous to even discuss it. There is one who was the Greatest and many who were great. Pele was a level above every individual player during his era. He is a head and shoulder above anyone who's dominated world football. The facts are easy to why he was the best, he scored over 1000 goals, he won 3 world cup and multiple national titles being top goal scorer over 10 times playing the best teams of Brazil at that time. Remember that Brazil and Argentina probably had the most competitive club football in the world back then and playing away from home was like walking into the middle of a forest in the middle of the night, scary as hell. Pele was never protected by the referees as players are nowadays and had he been maybe he would've won the 1966 World Cup to, as he was brutally assaulted every single match during that world cup and no subs were allowed so he was limping around the whole match. He is possibly the only person ever being capable to make a ceasefire during a civil war possible. In 1967 both sides during the Nigerian Civil War ceasedfire for 48 hours to watch Pele play an exhibition game, tell me if any players have that power or that courage to enter a country like that. Players like Maradona, Zico, Garrincha, Puskas, Di Stefano, Messi, Zidane, Platini, Cruyff, Romario, Ronaldo and so on, are never reaching that level of play. Pele was consistent for 18 years, lets see if Messi is consistent for 18 years, and please don't argue about 'Pele wouldn't have a chance nowadays' as of course he wouldn't, except if he had been brought up at the same time, because TALENT wise there will probably never be a player as good as Pele. Except you know that wasn't the argument we just had. Good way to completely miss the point. Aye, was agreeing with Dontooner about how there was one greatest and the rest great. For the rest of my post has nothing to do with you women fighting

Preaching to the choir.