Theregulars

Just now, astraguy said:

fuck me this is still going,Get a fucking grip like sir bobby all over again stop ruining the good things we have and go tug yourself off ffs or log off for good

Drugs are bad, mmmmkay?

2 hours ago, Vinny Green Balls said:

It's not lazy. Your argument is flimsy and yet you are relentlessly going on about it. A few on here put it much better than I did, and until now, you absolutely ignored it. Until he has a squad on their level, it's ridiculous to criticize his mixed record against them. 

 

And I've said this many times before, but I find it particularly irritating when someone's defense is essentially, "It's a forum. We are allowed to have different opinions."  I find that it is often a sign that they have a pretty weak argument when they bust out the being oppressed card.

 

And I may come across as didactic, but you are coming across as if chatGPT just developed a shred of quasi-sentience.

 

 

 

OK - I'm going to try once more. 

As I have acknowledged multiple times - he does not have a squad as good as the other teams yet. That does not automatically exempt him from criticism when it's evident that he has contributed somehow to a negative outcome. 

Maybe people keep expressing their freedom to disagree because you keep ramming shit arguments down their throat without any space allowed for disagreement with you? A sign that it's not a weak argument is the amount of people in this thread saying that he got it badly wrong on Sunday. 

And I don't think I'm coming across like ChatGPT - my arguments are set out and explained in a logical, sequential and analytical way. ChatGPT can't do that. 

It's absolutely OK to have your views challenged - try not to get so upset about it. 

33 minutes ago, Ronaldo said:

We played against 10 men for a full half of football and conceded two while scoring none. That can only be the result of a monumental failure to set up the team properly.

 

He fucked up, very badly, for the first time during his period here. We’re still behind him and we move on.

So @Vinny Green Ballslikes this point but not mine? Seems inconsistent.

18 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

So you say you don't understand why we look different against better teams in big matches, because in your view we should just go out there with the same approach we had against Villa yeah? Is that realistic and reasonable to you?

 

In fact you then go as far as to say we actually look reserved and timid against these teams, and in the case of the final the occasion was too big for the manager and players (None of this is true by the way). Is that a fair reflection of our performances or an over reaction and over exaggeration?

 

In my opinion you have completely lost sight of where we actually are as a team in comparison to the teams you are referring to and have also lost sight of how well the team has performed under this manager, including periods in the very matches you are referring to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, and at no point have I advocated for that (i.e. repeat the formula against Aston Villa). Yet again, it's a conclusion you've drawn on my behalf to try and suit a flimsy and over-generalised argument. 

I'll try and explain again - essentially, I have two questions / criticisms: 

• If we have seen visual evidence that we are able to impose ourselves on and overwhelm bigger teams in some matches, why have we not been able to do the same, or do to so to the same extent, in other matches? 
• Leading on from question 1, might it be a flaw in how the manager approaches those games? 

The answer to the second question may very well be your answer: the better teams negated us on the day, worked us out etc. I just think, in all the circumstances, it's reasonable to ask whether there is room for improvement when it comes to his strategy / attitude etc against bigger teams and on playing in big occasions? In my view, there is now a big enough sample size (it's still a small sample size) to ask that question. Why does that entitle you to dismiss that opinion as legitimate or entitled? In my view you dismiss it because you are, for whatever reason, unable or reluctant to engage in the topic with any real nuance or detail. It comes across that everything must be A or B, black or white etc, for you (which, again, is childlike).

I haven't lost sight of where we are: we overachieved last year and don't have a top 4 squad on paper (and certainly didn't last year). Nonetheless, we have overachieved, and the product of said overachievement is that we are now in our present circumstances with a new context, or at least a developed context. Against that background, I ask again: might the manager have approached those games differently? Might he have been overawed by the occasion? My opinion is that, yes, there is a plausible argument in favour of both ideas. 

3 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Right, of course. I'm just a child. Perfect.

Genuinely - are you? It would explain so, so much.

15 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

Eddie Howe can be criticised for in game decisions that he makes as well as team performances without it meaning that people want him out or don't think that he's good enough. I haven't read much of the last few pages but I think criticism of a performance or setup or substitution gets conflated with being against him or wanting him gone or not thinking he's up to it for whatever reason. 

 

He's been absolutely phenomenal and done a job so fantastic it's pretty much unprecedented. I've always been a fan of him, remember calling for him even pre takeover (as if he'd even have came then, but you kna), was fully behind him in the stickier early days when we had 1 win in 21 or something and still am fully behind him now. He's took us into the CL for the first time in my conscious Newcastle supporting life immediately following a season which we started with Stephen Roger in the dugout and battling against relegation. Unbelievable. On top of that he's made us into one of the best teams in the country playing a high tempo, nice on the eye style of football. I love him and he's made me as proud as I've ever been of being a Newcastle supporter, Saudi baggage aside.

 

But Sunday was poor. A goal and a man up after 25 minutes and we not only end up not winning the match but losing it, it was canny shit. Against a team we finished above of last season and a few expect us to be mixing it with this season. You'd hope that he'll learn from that. Disappointment will also always come from that in spite of the bigger picture. I still am now and probably will be until 5:29pm on Saturday. That's part of being a football fan and that's fine.

This x a million.

19 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Okay, fine. 

 

Your reactions and expectations are all perfectly fine and reasonable. Carry on.

You have no idea what my expectations are - you've never asked me about them and we've never had a conversation about them! You've literally decided what they are after extrapolating them from one comment or opinion. It's actually - sincerely, genuinely - how children view the world. 

My expectations for that game in the situation were that we would see a lead out with 15 minutes against 10 men. I don't see anything unreasonable in there. 

41 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

How long have Pep and Klopp been in their jobs? And how long have they been building those teams and working with those players? Players and squads that are still significantly better than ours by the way.

 

Honestly, you really need to calm down. You like so many others cannot handle the success we had last season and it has completely made you lot loopy.

 

 

I am calm and have been reasoned and polite in the whole debate. In my opinion the hubris and lack of self-awareness on your behalf in continually telling people what they think and how they feel is genuinely staggering. 

On 28/08/2023 at 08:57, Wallsendmag said:

 

 

Tbf as NUFC manager (we were relegation fodder up until last season lets not forget) for the time being at least he's always going to have a "mixed" record against the top sides. In fact most of the other top managers have a mixed record against the other top teams.

 

However he's still managed to beat Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Villa, Brighton, West Ham in his relatively short time here, all likely to be top 8 this season. Add to those an impressive draw v Man City last season and his record isn't actually too bad. For whatever reason Klopp just has his number.

No, it's not bad, but to my mind there have now been enough poor / timid performances in matches of that nature that I think it's fair to ask the question. That is genuinely all.

On 28/08/2023 at 01:02, NEEJ said:

I'll counter what criticism I've sent his way by saying his dismantling of Arsenal, Man Utd, Spurs, and Brighton at home are up there with the finest displays I've ever seen from a Newcastle side (albeit all at home). Therefore I more or less disagree with @Theregulars

I agree, those were all tremendous performances. But there have been just as many nervy, unconvincing our outright poor displayers in similar high-pressure matches or matches against better sides: cup final, Brighton away, Leeds away, Leicester home, Manchester City away this and last season, Liverpool home this and last season. Maybe that's just football, but in my view there's enough in there to question whether the manager is yet at a point where he is comfortable and reliable in these situations. I don't think he is, and that's a legitimate view based on the evidence in my opinion. I fully hope he can get there and I'll give him a very long time to do it. 

I would say - not in response to @NEEJ - that it does feel sometimes on this forum that divergence of opinion isn't allowed or tolerated. It feels somehow like I have blasphemed by criticising him. I love him and the team; I can still criticise them. I love my girlfriend and dog; I still criticise them when they're twats or do stupid shit. 

On 28/08/2023 at 01:33, Vinny Green Balls said:

The context that a number of people and myself have pointed out about the relative strengths of the squads. It is pretty much the most important context needed. Fine having a peaceful argument but you are just being willfully obtuse here by ignoring that massive elephant in the room, and it's making your argument that much flimsier.

I categorically disagree that it's the most important context needed. The most important contexts, for my money, are the context of how the team plays and the significant investment in the playing squad. Despite you phrasing it as fact, it's an opinion, and we differ. 

When you watch us regularly and in detail, you see a team with no fear who outrun, outmuscle, outduel etc others. My question is, therefore, why does that disappear (in whole or in part) in some high-pressure matches / matches against the better sides? Clearly, against squads which are more expensive than ours and longer in the tooth as established teams than ours, we can perform this way (Manchester United at home, Spurs home and away, Manchester City home last year) - so what I don't understand is twhy, in certain matches, that identity / culture / ethos etc goes missing. In my opinion, it went missing in the last two matches under instruction from the manager to some extent (we were so reserved and timid in both games). It went missing in the cup final because, in my view, the occasion was too big for the manage and squad. 

So, politely, calling people "willfully obtuse" and context-ignorant because they disagree with you is cheap and lazy in my view. I don't think Eddie Howe is faultless. I think he has done an excellent job but, when he does something or presides over or has some degree of responsibility for a situation in which the outcome is so obviously undesirable, is it not fair to ask a question or make a criticism? You come across as quite didactic: "if you don't agree with me then you're ignorant", essentially. 

18 minutes ago, NEEJ said:

I absolutely love him, but taking Gordon off was the wrong call. He'll learn from this and we'll be all the better for it. 

 

Eddie Howe's black and white army! 

 

 

 

And compounded by taking off Tonali and replacing him with an even less effective Longstaff. 
 

I think the giveaway is that the players visibly panicked, withdrew into their own half and couldn’t pass to one another. That shows a mentality issue, which is the manager’s domain. 
 

Some big questions for him, let’s hope he answers them. Blaspheme, blaspheme!

25 minutes ago, Vinny Green Balls said:

I've got to give you credit for being absolutely relentless in ignoring the crucial context here.

What context have I missed? 
 

My opinion has been fairly consistent: he’s really good, but his record in big pressure matches and matches against the bigger sides is mixed. I therefore concluded that he appears not to be the man for the big occasion. I don’t think it’s as outrageous a view as you think it is, but that’s the beauty of diversity of opinion. I hope you “win” this argument and I’m proved totally wrong; I fear I shan’t be. 
 

This does not ignore the magnificent job he has done, this acknowledges the reality of what football now is and where our ambitions are being literally directed by those who own the institution. 
 

I understand that you think it’s knee-jerk, that’s fine. But I’m not entitled, ignorant, childish etc; I just have a different opinion to yours and I’m happy to debate it in a peaceful manner. 

26 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

It's not struggling though.

I’ve not said he’s struggling; just that his record in big matches and against the better teams is mixed. 

1 hour ago, ilikenewcastle said:

- cup final performance was disappointing but in line with the way we playing during a poor run of form

- we lost twice away to Sky 6 and were not bad in either game.

- we were by far the better side in the first leg and had a goal disallowed for no reason, 2nd leg was wrapped up early

- you admit we played well in 4/6 homes game v Sky 6

- Villa game was probably the biggest occasion so far and we battered a good team

Doesn’t this just illustrate my point - that’s a mixed record.

32 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

He's beaten some of the top managers. Ten Haag, Arteta, Conte, Emery, De Zerbi.

He’s also lost to 3 of those 5 though…

1 hour ago, Gawalls said:

A draw at old Trafford, Stamford bridge, arsenal and a win at spurs is only ‘meh’ to you? We took four points from six from Man U, six from six from spurs. 

we’re still in very early days of this project and the fact that two out of the last three times we’ve played Liverpool we feel upset as we should have won, a team we haven’t beat since 2015 is signs of progress to me.

 

 When saying things like “I feel he might not be elite” - just be careful what you wish for.

Yes, I think his record in those fixtures is meh. I really like him. I hope he can improve, because he’ll need to. 

1 minute ago, Vinny Green Balls said:

with shittier players and a thinner squad. It is perfectly fair, particularly since you claimed that my stance wasn't nuanced.

I don’t think it is, really. Your stance appears to permit no criticism of Howe. Yes, we overachieved with a small squad. But also, yes, his record in big games is mixed. Why can’t both be true?

Just now, dcmk said:

We massively over-achieved last year.  No elite coach in the world would think Champions League football would have been an achieveable aim for us last season.

 

Yet this guy did it, and got us to a domestic cup final.

 

The entitlement is off the charts with some on here.

 

 

Arguably it’s entitled to walk around calling anyone entitled who disagrees with you. 
 

I’ll state it again - he did a great job last year and we overachieved. Nonetheless, his record in big matches is mixed. 

Just now, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Do think this is quite short sighted tbh. Last season Man City away we missed quite a few chances, should've scored at least twice. Hammered Man Utd and Spurs. Don't think we were 'wank' against Arsenal at all; they just took their chances and we didn't. Leeds away was crap for 25 minutes then we fought back and got the lead in an away game against a team scrapping against relegation in their first home game under a new manager. Brighton we were class and it was fairly unprecedented how Leicester set up against us; we had about 80% possession and missed a load of chances again, hit the woodwork twice iirc.

 

Today was crap, but the games in isolation don't add up to him having a mixed record in big games at all imo.

But literally they do. His record is a mixed bag of outcomes in them, including some quite meek losses. It’s not blasphemy to criticise Eddie Howe. The last 9 days show that he needs to get better in some areas, especially in matches against the big teams and in big matches. 

Just now, Vinny Green Balls said:

He had shittier players overall and a much thinner squad. Speaking of not being particularly nuanced.

I don’t think that’s fair. You just challenged me to admit he did well last season, which I’ve done. Can you now concede that his record in big fixtures is mixed? 

3 minutes ago, Vinny Green Balls said:

He's having a mare. That's really what it is.

I don’t think I am - I think it’s a fairly reasonable comment. His record in big games with us is mixed. 

4 minutes ago, Vinny Green Balls said:

That Man U game when we seriously needed a win, and it was one of the most lopsided 2-0's in history.

 

The proof is still carved in stone that we got there by winning when we absolutely needed it with a ridiculously thin side that pretty much had individuals forced to play more minutes than any other top ten team. It's a hell of an achievement, and you'd have to be a really self entitled loon not to acknowledge it. 

It was a colossal achievement to finish 4th with that squad.

it doesn’t mean that he’s also not the best in big games - he just isn’t, his record in them for us is mixed. 

1 hour ago, ilikenewcastle said:

Apart from all those times we won big games.

I’ll go through them again:

- cup final: lost 

- CL crunch run-in: Leeds away scabby draw, Leicester home very nervy, Brighton home fantastic 

- last year away games vs sky 6: lost at Liverpool, lost at Man City, drew at arsenal, drew at Manchester United, won at Tottenham, drew at Chelsea - meh record 

- cup semi last year: it gets forgotten but we laboured massively. Adam Armstrong was fucking unlucky not to tie the home leg 1-1.

- last year home games vs sky 6: great draw v city, meek against arsenal, great win against Manchester United, poor loss against Liverpool, good win vs Chelsea, destroyed spurs 

- this year first 2 big games: lost with poor performances.

The point I’m making is, on evidence, his record on big occasions isn’t great. I don’t think it’s as wild a take as you’re making it out to be. This is before we remember all the really disappointing performances last year when we couldn’t score. 
 

He is a very very good manager, I sense that he isn’t elite. I hope I’m wrong.

1 hour ago, hakka said:

 

Wtf

As I’ve said in my other post now, his record in big matches is really mixed. We seem to line up afraid of the bigger sides. That needs to change or he won’t last in the role; it’s denying factual reality to suggest he’s a big game manager. He isn’t, on evidence with us thus far.