TRon

On the bench against Stoke would have been an idea.

BTW Joe Lua Lua's a midfielder. You might want to consider him for the bench on Sunday in case (shock horror!) one of our midfielders gets injured

Virtually identical until you really look at them. Martins has had 27 shots and score 5 goals, however owen has had only 15 shots yet scored 6 goals effectively making him twice the finisher Oba is and in a side struggling to create chances that's critical. Maybe that's why we accomodate him when we can? I'm also curious why you think it's "patently unfair" to criticise Martins for a lack of footballing intelligence when, IMO, that's the one aspect of his game that's indefensable. As Goalfather has said, comparing shooting stats like that is not really fair as Martins plays deeper and a lot of his shots are from further away or are manufactured by himself so can be from difficult angles. Owen's shots are usually close range and require someone feeding him a decent cross or pass, which does highlight the fact that Owen is the more natural goal poacher.

Everton can be horrendous to watch at times. I think I should like them because they have players I like (Arteta, Pienaar, Osman) and three Nigeria internationals (would have had another if not for work permit nonsense too), but your style of play is incredibly bad sometimes. I have never really liked Everton's style of football but it's effective and makes the best use of the players they've got. I'd much rather be like that than try to play football with substandard players or do what Allardyce did and try and impose the long ball game on players who were bought to play passing football. The point regarding Butt is, yes he is a decent squad player but IMO it's better to get rid altogether. Firstly, because he is a 'name' he will never be treated as a squad player and he will always be preferred to younger options by every incoming manager like JFK. Secondly, he won't accept being on the bench in any case so it's a non-starter. If we are going to offer him a new contract it should be a crap offer which will reflect the fact he is seen as a squad player only, or better still let him leave, and buy a quality young centre midfielder.

[bUMPED] Just bumping this in light of the talk of Butt getting a new contract: I know we were rubbish in the 2nd half against Stoke, but the first half gave us a glimpse of what a midfield engine with newer parts could look like. Zog, Guthrie, Geremi and Jonas were sublime for 45 minutes and we actually looked like a team that could pass, move and create. Put Barton in there in Geremi's place and you might have had a team with the legs to go 90 mins. It's just frustrating that just when we get to see what a future without Butt and Duff in the midfield could look like, Guthrie's injury has put a block on it.

I think Ramos might do ok. Different culture different response from the players. The players were great when Ramos arrived but they were sick by the time he left. Exactly the same squad are getting much better results now, and I think it's because the players understand the English game with Redknapp and probably got a bit confused under Ramos.

Owen preferably, in reality it's not in our hands so he's off in the summer if not sooner. The rest...meh. Nicky Butt I would drive to the airport myself.

Last season I remember Lee Dixon talking about Martins' development as a player on MOTD. He said that he is still the same player that he saw play against Arsenal at Highbury few years earlier.(When Inter won 3-0) He added that he is unlikely to improve and that's just the way he plays. I agree that he hasn't improved very much at all. That's pretty much what I've been saying since we signed him. There's some players you get who you can nurture. Bellamy is a prime example. Martins though just doesn't seem to have the brain or overall technique to improve. Someone mentioned it last week, Owen's brain in Martins body would be the best striker in the world. spot on opinion, the only thing still with martins is he has time on his side I just don't see it though. It's not like he's 19-20, he should be pretty close to the finished article now. I know some people use Drogba as an example of how you get late developers in the game, but Drogba didn't play in academies and have the training facilities with top coaches that Martins has had at Inter and us (less the top coaches bit ) until he went to Marseille which was later in his career. If Martins was going to develop as a lot on here hope and seem to expect, I don't think there's a cat in hell's chance Inter would have sold him. Whether he's improved, or is capable of improving isn't really the point. He's quick and he creates and scores goals, and we don't have anyone else who we can replace him with just yet. My vote is to stick in a counter bid of £50 million for David Villa and then put Oba on the bench. Wake me up when that happens, until then I'd rather keep Martins on the pitch. And until then I'd sooner have Owen & Viduka. I don't mind that either provided we can put a midfield on the pitch which can provide enough movement, work rate and creativity to give them chances and they deliver the goals. I think it was Kaka who said pretty much the same thing, but it means playing 90 mins on the front foot rather than 45.

Last season I remember Lee Dixon talking about Martins' development as a player on MOTD. He said that he is still the same player that he saw play against Arsenal at Highbury few years earlier.(When Inter won 3-0) He added that he is unlikely to improve and that's just the way he plays. I agree that he hasn't improved very much at all. That's pretty much what I've been saying since we signed him. There's some players you get who you can nurture. Bellamy is a prime example. Martins though just doesn't seem to have the brain or overall technique to improve. Someone mentioned it last week, Owen's brain in Martins body would be the best striker in the world. spot on opinion, the only thing still with martins is he has time on his side I just don't see it though. It's not like he's 19-20, he should be pretty close to the finished article now. I know some people use Drogba as an example of how you get late developers in the game, but Drogba didn't play in academies and have the training facilities with top coaches that Martins has had at Inter and us (less the top coaches bit ) until he went to Marseille which was later in his career. If Martins was going to develop as a lot on here hope and seem to expect, I don't think there's a cat in hell's chance Inter would have sold him. Whether he's improved, or is capable of improving isn't really the point. He's quick and he creates and scores goals, and we don't have anyone else who we can replace him with just yet. My vote is to stick in a counter bid of £50 million for David Villa and then put Oba on the bench. Wake me up when that happens, until then I'd rather keep Martins on the pitch.

Forget improving a player, I'd take a manager who can pick a balanced bench and put out 11 players on the pitch who are capable of playing a game to suit their ability. What went on in that second half against Stoke was unforgiveably cack-handed IMO.

Exactly. As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples. No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning. Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all. could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have. You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't. i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things. myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation. espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass. Not sure what you are trying to prove here. If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did. Come on! what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him. did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever. That's because he isn't that clever, he doesn't have the poacher's instinct that Owen has, by the same token, Owen doesn't have the athleticism or explosive speed that Martins has. Unfortunately we only get pure thoroughbreds on their way down, like Butt, Viduka, Owen and probably plenty more through the years. Put them all into the same team and it's Oscar De Lahoya on a football pitch. The class is still there but the legs aren't. Well said. Especially frustrating how managers just can't see past these players' name/history. Yes we all know they have achieved a lot and have been very good players but they are clearly not performing on that level any longer. he's actually saying they both have big faults. It's the same across the squad to be fair, a lot of our players have good attributes but have a vital piece of the jigsaw missing. Guthrie's all round play is good, but in the box he has less impact. Barton's football brain is sharp, without a ball in front of him he's a neanderthal. The list goes on, the only player who could be described as the complete package and at his peak is Given.

Exactly. As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples. No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning. Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all. could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have. You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't. i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things. myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation. espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass. Not sure what you are trying to prove here. If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did. Come on! what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him. did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever. That's because he isn't that clever, he doesn't have the poacher's instinct that Owen has, by the same token, Owen doesn't have the athleticism or explosive speed that Martins has. Unfortunately we only get pure thoroughbreds on their way down, like Butt, Viduka, Owen and probably plenty more through the years. Put them all into the same team and it's Oscar De Lahoya on a football pitch. The class is still there but the legs aren't.

Exactly. As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples. No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning. Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all. could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have. You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

Couldn't have said it better. What some people don't seem to realise is, that's it not a case of adoration with Martins, we can all see he's thick, just as we can see that Zog runs into blind alleys. But take them away and you are left with slow, rusty players who bring us to a crawl. I can remember Dalglish building a side which had players like Hamman, Lee, Speed and Shearer, but when he got rid of the flair players with pace like Ginola and Asprilla, the players we were left with were relaiable but blunt instruments. It might well be possible to play Viduka and Owen up front, but not IMO if you are defending on the back foot with eight men back.

Again, that's just looking at it from a purely stats point of view. The reason we are conceding late goals against Wigan, Sunderland, Fulham and now Stoke ( all s*** sides btw) is because we are sitting back on our lead, dropping deeper and deeper allowing the opposition to overwhelm us. There's nothing wrong with sitting back and then countering fast on the break, but if we take our quicker players like Martins off, we don't have any real threat on the counter. We are actually playing very brainless football in these situations. A single player, Fuller was allowed to single handedly devastate us on our own ground. He wasn't dealt with in 45 mins, we were too busy giving ourselves problems by switching players from defence to midfield and generally panicking rather than controlling the game through possession. it's not really when the goals are conceded as much as when do we get pushed back and haven't got a clue how to get out. thats happened when martins has been both on and off the pitch. you could counter the "needing a fast player to counter attack" with the "of our three front line centre forwards he is the least likely to hold it up and take pressure of the defending" I think that's already been covered with the observation that when he's replaced b y Viduka the defenders move 10 yards up the field because they know that they won't be caught on the break if they push up for offside. i don't see that as martins isn't exactly a whizz at beating the offside trap and it leaves more of a gap in behind the defence for him to play the ball into,which he is more likely to do than martins and owen is more likely to read. have to be honest and say i haven't noticed any teams defences push up more because of any tactical change rather than pushing up more as the game goes on through a necessity to get back into the game. It's been a long tinme since I've seen Owen run onto a through ball from midfield and scoring on the break. He used to do it at Liverpool. Whether teams push up by design or not when Martins goes off, it must make it easier to do that when you know you have a better chance of catching the forward if he is picked out on the break. If I was setting a team up to soak up pressure then hit on the break I'd prefer to have a quick striker on the shoulder of the last defender.

Quite clear that JK gave it no proper thought and is just picking the squad by numbers. A similar lack of understanding or tactical nous was responsible for the poor substitutions and failure to deal with Fuller who was allowed to run riot for 45 mins while Kinnear sat frozen like a tub of ice cream in his dugout. Is that like painting by numbers? It's done by childish minds so I suppose the answer is yes.

The problem now is that we are needing away wins because we are dropping points at home, and I don't think we have the confidence to close out a win in a game like this. We might get another draw.

Again, that's just looking at it from a purely stats point of view. The reason we are conceding late goals against Wigan, Sunderland, Fulham and now Stoke ( all s*** sides btw) is because we are sitting back on our lead, dropping deeper and deeper allowing the opposition to overwhelm us. There's nothing wrong with sitting back and then countering fast on the break, but if we take our quicker players like Martins off, we don't have any real threat on the counter. We are actually playing very brainless football in these situations. A single player, Fuller was allowed to single handedly devastate us on our own ground. He wasn't dealt with in 45 mins, we were too busy giving ourselves problems by switching players from defence to midfield and generally panicking rather than controlling the game through possession. it's not really when the goals are conceded as much as when do we get pushed back and haven't got a clue how to get out. thats happened when martins has been both on and off the pitch. you could counter the "needing a fast player to counter attack" with the "of our three front line centre forwards he is the least likely to hold it up and take pressure of the defending" I think that's already been covered with the observation that when he's replaced b y Viduka the defenders move 10 yards up the field because they know that they won't be caught on the break if they push up for offside.

Quite clear that JK gave it no proper thought and is just picking the squad by numbers. A similar lack of understanding or tactical nous was responsible for the poor substitutions and failure to deal with Fuller who was allowed to run riot for 45 mins while Kinnear sat frozen like a tub of ice cream in his dugout.

Again, that's just looking at it from a purely stats point of view. The reason we are conceding late goals against Wigan, Sunderland, Fulham and now Stoke ( all shit sides btw) is because we are sitting back on our lead, dropping deeper and deeper allowing the opposition to overwhelm us. There's nothing wrong with sitting back and then countering fast on the break, but if we take our quicker players like Martins off, we don't have any real threat on the counter. We are actually playing very brainless football in these situations. A single player, Fuller was allowed to single handedly devastate us on our own ground. He wasn't dealt with in 45 mins, we were too busy giving ourselves problems by switching players from defence to midfield and generally panicking rather than controlling the game through possession.

I doubt Joe will ever have the balls to play all three away from home. Shame because I seem to remember destroying Spurs at White Hart Lane, whereas this time we'll probably be turning cartwheels if we get 0-0 with 10 men behind the ball, and martins on the bench.

What good is that though when that said striker can't keep the ball with his pace. If we were talking about Bellamy, or even Dyer, I'd totally agree, because they could run and keep the ball, giving it to a team mate more often than not, Martins isn't like that imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Owen & Viduka up top at any particular time. It's good in that it forces the opposition to sit much deeper and commit less men forward? Oba's scored at least two goals for us by running the entire length of the field in the late stages against opposition trying to get into the game. I'd reckon we've scored more late goals from an Owen header or tap-in mind. We've had 3 this season alone. I'm as critical as any against Kinnear, but I don't think Kinnear is the only manager who'd be making the Viduka for Martins substitution. All the decent teams in the premier have pace throughout their side so they could afford to sub Martins. I know if we are up against a side with quick forwards I'm usually bricking it if we go a goal behind because of the danger of getting caught on the break. On Saturday after going two goals up, if we'd went about it the right way we should have scored at least another two with Martins, Zog, Owen and Jonas in the side. Utter waste.

It's at times like this I look back and think how lucky we were to have a manager like KK last season who's only instinct was to go for the jugular and blow the opposition out of the water. Home or away. Have some of this you bastards I don't even say that as a Keegan worshipper, he had his faults, but letting shit teams walk away with points from St James wasn't one of them.

Martins has the threat of breaking at pace which always keeps teams on their toes. I've never seen it used more effectively at Newcastle than when Bobby Robson put that side together with Bellamy, Robert and Dyer. With Solano picking the ball up from defence and picking one of them out, we could be down the other end of the pitch with the ball in the back of the net before the opposition had turned round to run in the other direction.

That was obviously Plan A with the club getting sold which fell flat. To be fair to Kinnear, he's had some good results against City and Villa, and we've looked more organised defensively, but it's a double edged sword. We are giving far too much respect to the poorer teams, and allowing them to come at us once we are ahead. The attitude should be "right..you're shit and you're at St James. Prepare to be hammered for 90 mins".