greydos

Correct. 433 is 'kak'! But SA doesn't play 442 unless he has to (i.e. owen's fit) so that's the best team i think he could play against wigan. After all, this is the pre-match thread. If it was a 'what is your best newcastle team at the moment if we had a decent manager with tactical acumen' then i might go: --------------Given Beye--Taylor--Cacapa--Enrique Duff------Faye---Emre---Zogs --------Viduka---Martins/owen Barton coming on for Emre late, depending on how we're doing

Emre should start every match. All this talk of him fading late so he should be subbed is crap. Play emre from the start, let him create chances for us, we approach the 70 min mark in front for once, and then get him off for another midfielder. What the frig is so hard about that?

--------------Given Beye--Taylor--Cacapa--Enrique --------------Faye --------Barton----Emre ---Duff----------------N'Zogbia --------------Viduka The triumverate of Faye Cacapa Taylor is the strongest defensive spine we can put out. Great for heading aerial balls (Faye covers Cacapa's sometimes slight weakness at this) plus Faye's pace, strength and mobility will be an asset. Allows Emre and Barton to roam if necessary, Duff on the right would give emre options on both wings of players who can use their first touch as an asset, not as a challenge to be overcome (milner). Vids scores goals, and his hold up play would allow barton to overtake the ball and run past defences, plus duff and zogs going through off their wings ala classic away day ljungberg

I would like to make a point in general which applies as much to discussion of formations and players. People tend to globalise statistics and examples too much and i think it can cloud meaningful discussions. For (a non-footballing) example, if a doctor tells you that an elderly relative is going to live in pain for the next 3 months, and only has a 2% chance of recovery, most people would think 'she's a goner, there is no chance, it would be better to let her die peacefully by switching the machine off'. However, across the population, when everybody thinks the same thing, then not 1 elderly person will survive. However small statistics are, they are there because they DO happen. I think this applies to footballers in the following way. We all tend to say 'blah blah has a bad touch, he can't do this, he's rubbish at that' but we forget to mention the exceptions to the rule. For every 'viduka is to slow to get in the box for crosses' see 'west ham at home first goal'. If you make 10 chances a game, it only takes 1 'exception' to get you a one nil win. If SA is able to strengthen the defence as everyone thinks he will, then the supposed weaknesses of players and the whole team is minimised.

Given

Coach HTT, i give you credit for the post even if i disagree with a lot of your points. If you want to call a 4411 a different formation to a 442, then that's your prerogative. However, to me, that's a 442. Simple as. If one striker always tackles back in a 442 (ala heskey in the owen partnership at liverpool) that does not mean a 4411 is being played. Arsenal mainly play 442, with Persie and Adebayor up front. Due to injuries they have adapted, but will revert to 442 shortly. 433 does not have to dominate a 442, as in response all a 442 has to do is involve the spare centre half in bringing the ball out more, matching the midfield 3 and utilising the extra man they have up front. Saying that a 442 cannot convert to an attacking 4 as it will lose its shape is just plain wrong. Man utd's team recently have lined up: Ronaldo..Hargreaves..Anderson..Giggs with Tevez and Rooney up front. When they go forward, Ronaldo and Giggs often get to the byeline or box like traditional wingers, making it 4 up front if you like, with anderson and hargreaves supporting from deep. this is the same in most 442s. Saying that a 442 isn't flexible as it cannot change into a 'diamond' or other shape is also wrong. It's still a 442, just one central midfielder pushes up, the other sits. So for classic man u of the 90s, where keane sat, scholes pushed on. I didn't watch the liverpool man u game on the weekend, but the experts on match of the day seemed to think they lined up 442, and it looked like that in the highlights. Now, talk of them playing it like 'chess' and not 'boxing' is just silly. Firstly, boxing can be as tactical and smart-thinking as chess, if not moreso. Similarly, chess can be a game of less thinking and all out warfare (read up on Mikhael Tal, multiple world champion, his style of play was gung-ho). Besides failed analogies (that coat thing was unpleasant to read) a 442 does not mean you have to throw caution to the wind. You can request wingers not to venture as far forward, and make sure if they go that the central midfielders sit, aye. But you can do that in any formation. If the instructions are not to go forward, that doesn't mean that all of a sudden a 442 is not being played as we're playing the chess 433 or whatever. It just means the men in the 442 have been told to be cautious. Anyway, that is all for now, i await your respone, and will carry on the debate with you. It's good to see some honest open discussion on a forum without petty name calling etc, and adds to my overall enjoyment of the best sport in the world!! (football, not chess

Would you give a s*** if we were winning? Well, he hasn't scored goals, and we havent been winning as well as we'd like. We have a really tough 2nd half of the season, and will need both strikers (and contributions from MF) if we are to pick up enough wins to finish in the top 8. That wasn't the question - just taking him to task regarding this goals thing, it's a load of bollocks. If a team is winning, it doesn't matter that one of your strikers isn't scoring. He is obviously contributing elsewhere, and others are obviously making up for his shortfall as the team is winning. Of course I appreciate that we aren't winning, or at least not consistently and as such Smith's lack of scoring becomes more of a problem. I'm certain he will score a few this season - bear in mind he has played what, 3 games up front this season? Give him a run of 10 starts on the trot up front, I would expect 1-3 goals from him, but I would also expect to see us winning and keeping the ball in opposition territory a lot more, leading to more goals from others. Another sensible post. Good stuff. The people who are only able to judge a footballer on stats will be cringing. News just in, Sam Allardyce cringed so hard the skin on his cheeks fell off...both cheeks...all his cheeks

Aye that Ajax team have been garbage over the years like. Oh f*** wait, Johan Cruijff says f*** you. The examples you give are always the exception to the domination of 442. How many international tournaments, champions league tournaments, premierships have been won by 433? About 6? How many have been won by 442? about 1,069,991 and counting. Funny thing is, if someone tried telling Johan Cruijff his team were successful because of the formation and that in a different formation the personnel wouldn't have been as successful, he'd probably tell you to f*** yourself, an rightly so! Is this a wind-up? The last three Premierships have been won with 4-3-3. The current leaders play 4-5-1. No wind-up. I said history. Football has been played for some 120 years. 433 has been prominent at most in the last 25 years. 3 premiership titles is nothing against a backdrop of 90+ years of non-existence and non-success What a ridiculous comment. Wasn't 4-2-4 the formation of choice before 4-4-2? And what about 2-3-5, is that the classic football formation? The point it, which one's going to work now, not which one worked best in the past. What is so ridiculous? I was responding to comments earlier on in this thread along the lines of '433 is the greatest formation ever no one's said that, it's so brilliant blah blah blah'. I am merely pointing out that before i would label a formation the best 'ever', i would wait till it has some substantial success behind it. I am not saying 442 is the best formation ever and you're clearly saying that, but it's had more success in the history of the game than 433 so? three premier league's on the trot won with 4-3-3, and so has a much better shout of being labelled the best formation ever. 433 is kak. that was my intial point, and i stand by it. for all those people that because they can remember 1 successful football team that got success with a formation that is not 442, please don't feel you have to throw that at me as some riposte to my overall point. YG, i'm not quite sure what you've tried to do there, but if the emboldened text is supposed to say that nobody in this thread has said that 433 is the best ever formation (i'm guessing that's what you mean?) then i would point to HTT's post at the top of page 3: '4-3-3 is the ultimate and most flexible formation ever concepted in football and will be a huge success for us, once we have the players for it...' I know it's slightly tongue in cheek the way he has worded it, but the sentiment behind it i have heard him say before (in particular in mammoth posts about how it's the best for 'transitional play' and how mourinho goes to bed with 433 written all over his favourite pyjamas etc etc. The point i was making is that if any formation is going to have a chance of being labelled 'the ultimate', 'the best', or whatever else anyone wants to call it, then it's got to have a history of success much greater than 442, which has dominated football at every level for more years than most of the other formations.

Aye that Ajax team have been garbage over the years like. Oh f*** wait, Johan Cruijff says f*** you. The examples you give are always the exception to the domination of 442. How many international tournaments, champions league tournaments, premierships have been won by 433? About 6? How many have been won by 442? about 1,069,991 and counting. Funny thing is, if someone tried telling Johan Cruijff his team were successful because of the formation and that in a different formation the personnel wouldn't have been as successful, he'd probably tell you to f*** yourself, an rightly so! Is this a wind-up? The last three Premierships have been won with 4-3-3. The current leaders play 4-5-1. No wind-up. I said history. Football has been played for some 120 years. 433 has been prominent at most in the last 25 years. 3 premiership titles is nothing against a backdrop of 90+ years of non-existence and non-success What a ridiculous comment. Wasn't 4-2-4 the formation of choice before 4-4-2? And what about 2-3-5, is that the classic football formation? The point it, which one's going to work now, not which one worked best in the past. What is so ridiculous? I was responding to comments earlier on in this thread along the lines of '433 is the greatest formation ever, it's so brilliant blah blah blah'. I am merely pointing out that before i would label a formation the best 'ever', i would wait till it has some substantial success behind it. I am not saying 442 is the best formation ever, but it's had more success in the history of the game than 433, and so has a much better shout of being labelled the best formation ever. 433 is kak. that was my intial point, and i stand by it. for all those people that because they can remember 1 successful football team that got success with a formation that is not 442, please don't feel you have to throw that at me as some riposte to my overall point.

Aye that Ajax team have been garbage over the years like. Oh f*** wait, Johan Cruijff says f*** you. The examples you give are always the exception to the domination of 442. How many international tournaments, champions league tournaments, premierships have been won by 433? About 6? How many have been won by 442? about 1,069,991 and counting. Funny thing is, if someone tried telling Johan Cruijff his team were successful because of the formation and that in a different formation the personnel wouldn't have been as successful, he'd probably tell you to f*** yourself, an rightly so! Is this a wind-up? The last three Premierships have been won with 4-3-3. The current leaders play 4-5-1. No wind-up. I said history. Football has been played for some 120 years. 433 has been prominent at most in the last 25 years. 3 premiership titles is nothing against a backdrop of 90+ years of non-existence and non-success

Aye that Ajax team have been garbage over the years like. Oh f*** wait, Johan Cruijff says f*** you. The examples you give are always the exception to the domination of 442. How many international tournaments, champions league tournaments, premierships have been won by 433? About 6? How many have been won by 442? about 1,069,991 and counting. Funny thing is, if someone tried telling Johan Cruijff his team were successful because of the formation and that in a different formation the personnel wouldn't have been as successful, he'd probably tell you to f*** yourself, an rightly so!

433 (aka 451 in stealth mode) is kak! Crap formation, kak ideology behind it, and has no history of success in the game of football, and probably never will have!

------------Given Beye--Taylor--Cacapa--Enrique -------------Faye------------- ---Barton--------Emre----- Milner---------------------Zog ------------Viduka Faye should be first choice DM when fit. More athleticism than butt, passing is slightly better (although not hard) and is a beast in the air, giving us the benefit of playing cacapa (great experience) and Taylor (young, passionate and developing) as well as taking out Nicky Butt (reason enough on its own surely?). Faye at DM also gives emre and barton licence to get passed Viduka, as one of the midfield 3 should be doing, ala cahill and osman at everton, or fabregash at arse, or dyer at west ham hahahahahhaha

---------------Given--------------------- Beye--Taylor--Cacapa--Enrique ---------------Faye--------------------- -------Barton---------Emre Martins--------------------N'Zog ---------------Smith Bench: Harper, Roz, Geremi, Milner, Vids

This This This

The best way to scare an opposition wide player is to put a better wide player on our team out wide, who's going to give the full back such a torrid time their manager is going to be screaming at their wide player to track back and help. having a poor attacking cm out wide says to the opposition full back, mate you're going to have an easy day, you don't have to worry about what's behind you as emre/bowyer/smith/barton's not going to come passed you either with or without the ball, so knock yourself out, why don't you try a few forays forward. what's to stop you?

The first post is waaaaaaaaaaaay too long!! I read it thoroughly and my response in summary is that most of the points stated in it apply to any formation, particularly 442. For instance, the "he's training zoggy at left back so he can defend as a wide forward" argument applies equally to wingers in a 442. The wide players in any formation have to track back, that's the nature of football. Also, because mourinho plays it doesn't make it the best formation, as in history you'll find more things have been won with 442 than any other formation. "Transitional Play" is another baffling concept as the 1994 and 1999 Man U teams were the best at counter-attacking when they had to, quality centre midfield passing spraying the ball to Giggs, Kanchelskis et al an rapidly turning defence to attack. Same with us under SBR, the pace of dyer, robert and bellamy allied to solano's craft often seen us tear up the other end of the field and score goals. Being able to counter-attack a team does not depend on systems, but personnel. Pace and ability to trap the ball at high speed and execute final ball passing is the key to effective counter-attacking in my eyes.

Given Beye Faye Rozehnal Enrique Martins Emre Butt Zog Owen Smith 4-1

Point amongst points!! It's like my old champ man days when i would manage a second team to buy all my crap off me for extraordinary prices to make myself rich!! Throw in Peter Ramge whilst we're at it!

We're out mate

I notice you tried to convince me there HTT that Quinton Fortune is an example of SA wanting attractive technically gifted footballers? (There were other examples you said which made me laugh equally as much!!) Also, SA didn't sign "2 attacking fullbacks". He signed Beye, a centre back who has been converted for a couple of years into a full back, for whom getting forward is NOT a strength, but being defensively solid, quick and athletic is. And he bought Enrique, not an attacking fullback, but nicknamed "the Bull" for his hard tackling. Also, about Cacapa and Rozenhal, SA did not say that they were good because they were good passing defenders, he only recently said that Cacapa's ability to pass is incidental to his qualities, and that he's a "destroyer" not a player. SA is all about being workmanlike, efficient, and effective. He analyses what seems to work best on paper, i.e. statistics about how teams concede goals, usually through not being able to concentrate for a full 90 minutes when faced with having to clear their lines from aerial bombardments, and sets about making that happen on the pitch. Hence EVERY throw in we ever get we'll have to witness Geremi try and launch it into their box. There's no excuses for that, it evinces SA' intentions perfectly

HTT nobody wants this team to be the finished article after 6 games. What we want is there to be signs that we want to play positive football. If you've got a whole pre-season with a team, there is no doubt in my mind that Sam could have coached them to at least attempt passing triangles and movement in matches. Even if we played possession football for 20 mins in a match, that would show where he wants to go. Right now, there is no evidence that he even wants to play nice football as his long term aim. Oh, and for the record, there was not an Okocha for every grafter at Bolton. There was ONE Okocha, and ONE Anelka. There were PLENTY of grafters

Firstly, Tino Asprilla a wide man? Secondly, i thought it was a Blackburn article not a newcaslte one!!

For me it's Owen Ameobi Martins. Lob the ball up to ameobi and his first touch will reliably go anywhere, leading to many 'accidental' assists for owen or martins i think.

1. newcastle 18. chelsea (that way they have season long hopes of survival before dropping) 19. west ham 20. spurs