Unbelievable

Rather get a replacement striker than a fee tbh..

Your argument essentially comes down to: we may have gone down in numbers, but the players left have just had a really good season, even better than we might have expected beforehand (something I actually kind of agree with). They are still the same players as last year though, aren't they? Also, what is to say they will exceed expectations again?

Well no, not quite, i also mentioned the return of Ben Arfa and Gosling. And that we now have someone with legs to partner Tiote. Look, we are going round in circles. Only time will tell. I for one, am looking forward to the new season and dont get all the pessimism. Yes we need a few more, and there is plently of time for that to happen. As it stands, our first 11 looks decent and should cause some problems. We looks like weve got a bit more pace and players that can do things with the ball. I agree, if we lose the players you mentioned we are going to be seriously lacking - if they arent replaced. We'll see. Fair enough. Still fail to see where Ben Arfa fits into your argument: he was available at the start of last season and he will be this season if things don't change in that respect. So he was injured for most of the season. Do you think none of our players will be injured next season? I would argue there are other players than Ben Arfa that would make us much weaker if they were out injured for a serious amount of time (Colo, Enrique).. But, as you say, we'll see.

So we're back to square one. We've lost Nolan, Campbell and Carroll, and brought in Cabaye, Marveaux and Ba. I said it was debatable that those changes have made us stronger and explained why, player for player and position for position. My conclusion is we are stronger in midfield, but weaker in defense and attack. What don't you agree with?

The squad Elliott, the squad...

Are we stronger now than at the start of last season? It's not rocket science..

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable.. How exactly? We have lost Carroll and have replaced him with Ba. I don't think that constitutes progress, do you? We have lost Nolan, our club captain and goal scorer and replaced him with Cabaye, who looks promising but is a bit of an unknown quantity. Let's call it evens. We have lost Campbell (essential cover at centre back) and got Marveaux (cover for wings with first team potential but also massive crock potential). All in all we haven't done too badly, but we've gone backwards in attack and defense, and (hopefully) improved in midfield. We have also not spent any major transfer funds. As I have argued before, I am relatively happy so far, but don't come and tell me you are happy if this is how the window closes..? Well, Ba For Carroll. Yes, Carroll was unstoppable for us first half of last season. Got to remember he missed a lot of the 2nd half through injury. How many games would we have got out of him? Ba's record was/is very good. So we've lost a good player, but replaced him with one. Campbell - essential? Come on. He was shocking all but 1 game for us. He's finished. As for Nolan, from a playing perspective, i didnt shed any tears to see him go. If Cabaye is the footballer he is made out to be, we will be a lot more mobile in the middle next year and hopefull Tiote wont have to do the running of to men. Add to that the return of Ben Arfa, Meaveux, Gosling and potentially Vuckic, i'd say (on paper) we looking stronger. Just lack a little depth. Again, there is still two months to go before the window ends too. I just dont get all the doom and gloom. I for one, cant wait for the new season. How much Carroll played second half of last season is irrelevant to whether we have become stronger in the striker department since the start of last season. Surely you understand that? Campbell was essential cover, not because he was an excellent option, but because by letting him go we now have no cover if anything happens to Colo, Williamson or Taylor. It does not take John Terry to replace him but since he's gone and we've not got anybody else in to step up when injuries hit us in central defense, we've gone backwards in this area. Surely this is no too complicated? Ben Arfa and Vuckic were here last season and both were fit to play, so they are irrelevant in a comparison. I will give you Gosling, even though it is entirely unsure after nearly 2 years on the sidelines he will ever fulfill his potential with us. Anyway, I already conceded so far we look slightly stronger in midfield than at the start of last season, but we have gone backwards in defense and attack. The two months we still have are irrelevant to the argument as you yourself stated: Which I demonstrated to you is very debatable. Even then, if you are happy to be optimistic about the possible incomings in the next two months, surely you will permit me to be cautious with respect to possible outgoings. After all, we all know what is likely to happen if decent bids come in for Barton, Enrique and even the likes of Colo, Jonas and Tiote. We clearly have different opinions, however, Ben Arfa and Vuckic were fit to play??? If we are talking about 'as it stands' Then Barton, Enrique etc havent been sold. We managed half a season without Carroll, so maybe we are weaker up top than we were the first half of last season, however we are stronger than the second. Again, as it stands, imo, we are stronger than we ended last season. Ben Arfa and Vuckic were more or less fit to play at the start of last season, weren't they? I haven't excluded Barton, Enrique, etc in my comparison to the start of last season, have I? So you conceed we are currently weaker up top than at the start of last season? Good. Now show me how we aren't weaker in defense and it might give your optimism a semblance of credibility.

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable.. How exactly? We have lost Carroll and have replaced him with Ba. I don't think that constitutes progress, do you? We have lost Nolan, our club captain and goal scorer and replaced him with Cabaye, who looks promising but is a bit of an unknown quantity. Let's call it evens. We have lost Campbell (essential cover at centre back) and got Marveaux (cover for wings with first team potential but also massive crock potential). All in all we haven't done too badly, but we've gone backwards in attack and defense, and (hopefully) improved in midfield. We have also not spent any major transfer funds. As I have argued before, I am relatively happy so far, but don't come and tell me you are happy if this is how the window closes..? Since when did Campbell qualify as essential cover? He was f***ing shocking man. The same people who were moaning about Campbell being useless and Nolan panting after 50 minutes are now moaning that we've sold them....how ironic. I want a few more players in especially a top notch striker and right winger, but I'm happy so far See above. He was essential cover because we are now left with only 3 centre backs. If one of them is injured, then what?

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable.. How exactly? We have lost Carroll and have replaced him with Ba. I don't think that constitutes progress, do you? We have lost Nolan, our club captain and goal scorer and replaced him with Cabaye, who looks promising but is a bit of an unknown quantity. Let's call it evens. We have lost Campbell (essential cover at centre back) and got Marveaux (cover for wings with first team potential but also massive crock potential). All in all we haven't done too badly, but we've gone backwards in attack and defense, and (hopefully) improved in midfield. We have also not spent any major transfer funds. As I have argued before, I am relatively happy so far, but don't come and tell me you are happy if this is how the window closes..? Well, Ba For Carroll. Yes, Carroll was unstoppable for us first half of last season. Got to remember he missed a lot of the 2nd half through injury. How many games would we have got out of him? Ba's record was/is very good. So we've lost a good player, but replaced him with one. Campbell - essential? Come on. He was shocking all but 1 game for us. He's finished. As for Nolan, from a playing perspective, i didnt shed any tears to see him go. If Cabaye is the footballer he is made out to be, we will be a lot more mobile in the middle next year and hopefull Tiote wont have to do the running of to men. Add to that the return of Ben Arfa, Meaveux, Gosling and potentially Vuckic, i'd say (on paper) we looking stronger. Just lack a little depth. Again, there is still two months to go before the window ends too. I just dont get all the doom and gloom. I for one, cant wait for the new season. How much Carroll played second half of last season is irrelevant to whether we have become stronger in the striker department since the start of last season. Surely you understand that? Campbell was essential cover, not because he was an excellent option, but because by letting him go we now have no cover if anything happens to Colo, Williamson or Taylor. It does not take John Terry to replace him but since he's gone and we've not got anybody else in to step up when injuries hit us in central defense, we've gone backwards in this area. Surely this is no too complicated? Ben Arfa and Vuckic were here last season and both were fit to play, so they are irrelevant in a comparison. I will give you Gosling, even though it is entirely unsure after nearly 2 years on the sidelines he will ever fulfill his potential with us. Anyway, I already conceded so far we look slightly stronger in midfield than at the start of last season, but we have gone backwards in defense and attack. The two months we still have are irrelevant to the argument as you yourself stated: Which I demonstrated to you is very debatable. Even then, if you are happy to be optimistic about the possible incomings in the next two months, surely you will permit me to be cautious with respect to possible outgoings. After all, we all know what is likely to happen if decent bids come in for Barton, Enrique and even the likes of Colo, Jonas and Tiote.

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable.. How exactly? We have lost Carroll and have replaced him with Ba. I don't think that constitutes progress, do you? We have lost Nolan, our club captain and goal scorer and replaced him with Cabaye, who looks promising but is a bit of an unknown quantity. Let's call it evens. We have lost Campbell (essential cover at centre back) and got Marveaux (cover for wings with first team potential but also massive crock potential). All in all we haven't done too badly, but we've gone backwards in attack and defense, and (hopefully) improved in midfield. We have also not spent any major transfer funds. As I have argued before, I am relatively happy so far, but don't come and tell me you are happy if this is how the window closes..?

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable..

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese.. Like the club would say that. Has any other club released a statement like that? Statements saying players have been told they don't have a future at a club happen all the time. Links please. Here's 36,6 million links for you: http://www.google.nl/search?q=told+he+has+no+future+at+the+club&hl=nl&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&ei=d2oOTuqYIovsObXp2KIL&start=40&sa=N&biw=1440&bih=764 I will let you find the best examples yourself.. So you can't find many then, despite them apparently happening all the time. Seriously..? Have you never seen or heard an interview with a manager or a player where they mentioned somebody has no future at the club? Let me just give you one example that you should be able to recognise. Remember what Pardew had to say about Routledge when the club foolishly decided to let him leave the club on loan without bringing in a replacement (seems they weren't so worried about letting players go before bringing in new players strangely enough btw..): He was already out the door at QPR by then, he doesn't say that he has to shift him on to be able to bring other players in either, just that we should aim for better. Where are these quotes that apparently happen all of the time when a manager says he's told players they have no future at the club and depending on them leaving he will be able to bring in replacements? Fo f***'s sake Baggio, I think you've completely lost what you were trying to say and are now just arguing for the sake of it.. I said: Note, I did not argue that the club needs to shift deadwood. You did this yourself, when you said: Anyway, Thomas replied to my point about the club having an option to be up front about it if they felt the needed to sell before they buy (something I do not agree with, but you seemingly do): And I phrased it in a way that would be not too disrespectful to the players involved (especially if they had been told internally before) and would clarify such a course of action to the fans (again: I would personally not condone such a course of action, so all hypothetical as far as I am concerned. I was just arguing your corner for a second, which you seem to have overlooked). To which you replied: I then retorted: That's when you decided to go all POIDH on me, and I showed you proof, first by giving you millions of links to articles of players who had been told (reportedly) they didn't have a future at the club, and then when you still failed to grasp my point, by pointing to a recent real case example from within our own club. This was a statement from our very own manager concerning one of our very own players (which he still is; the fact the quotes were after he left on loan to QPR (how respectful btw; what was he trying to achieve?) does not change the fact Routledge is still on our books and has been told he is surplus to requirements, not in a private meeting, but on national radio no less). I have not said that this is often said in combination with a 25 man squad argument, or a sell before buy announcement, because it isn't. Nor have I argued the statement would normally come directly from the manager, or be an official press release from a club. I was asked how Pardew could have politically phrased such an argument if he wanted to (once again: your/his argument, not mine!) and I did. Now you are trying to make it look like I am the one advocating your ridiculous statement and then scorn me for it..? Great tactic if it wasn't so logically flawed. Or, to make a longs story short: you said this yourself, which is the very same point you are arguing with me over now..:

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese.. Like the club would say that. Has any other club released a statement like that? Statements saying players have been told they don't have a future at a club happen all the time. Links please. Here's 36,6 million links for you: http://www.google.nl/search?q=told+he+has+no+future+at+the+club&hl=nl&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&ei=d2oOTuqYIovsObXp2KIL&start=40&sa=N&biw=1440&bih=764 I will let you find the best examples yourself.. So you can't find many then, despite them apparently happening all the time. Seriously..? Have you never seen or heard an interview with a manager or a player where they mentioned somebody has no future at the club? Let me just give you one example that you should be able to recognise. Remember what Pardew had to say about Routledge when the club foolishly decided to let him leave the club on loan without bringing in a replacement (seems they weren't so worried about letting players go before bringing in new players strangely enough btw..):

Like the 'no capital outlay this summer' quotes before we went out and signed Tiote and Ben Arfa? Surely that should tell you not to jump to conclusions from quotes and statements. Oh, I don't need to go back until the summer to find some quotes that have later been proved to be misleading, and I'm sure neither would you if you tried real hard to remember what happened in January.. Fact is there is no reason for these quotes or the one you just mentioned from last year other than to gradually lower our expectations. We spend what, 3 or 4 million last summer, on our return to the Premier League after being relegated the year before? Whoopifuckingdoo.. At the same time there's no need to say that they're trying to shift on dead wood to free up space for new players (if that is the case) if the only benefit of it is to stop people from spending all of their time on messageboards over analysing every comment to death. To be honest, I sometimes think the people at the club should communicate more and better with the fans, but if all they can come out with is bollocks like this from Pardew it makes me wonder if we're all not better off if they just shut up and implemented their great "five year plan" in silence... (When are we supposed to be "challenging for everything" again Derek?) We won't be challenging for anything major with the huge spenders about, we simply can't compete with them. I've accepted it, perhaps you should too. I won't. There's the main difference between you and me in a nutshell. You will happily settle for mediocrity, whereas I will quite happily hold them to their promise or point out where they fail until the day they either accomplish in what should be their ambition with the club or the day they sell up and fuck off..

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese.. Like the club would say that. Has any other club released a statement like that? Statements saying players have been told they don't have a future at a club happen all the time. Links please. Here's 36,6 million links for you: http://www.google.nl/search?q=told+he+has+no+future+at+the+club&hl=nl&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&ei=d2oOTuqYIovsObXp2KIL&start=40&sa=N&biw=1440&bih=764 I will let you find the best examples yourself..

Like the 'no capital outlay this summer' quotes before we went out and signed Tiote and Ben Arfa? Surely that should tell you not to jump to conclusions from quotes and statements. Oh, I don't need to go back until the summer to find some quotes that have later been proved to be misleading, and I'm sure neither would you if you tried real hard to remember what happened in January.. Fact is there is no reason for these quotes or the one you just mentioned from last year other than to gradually lower our expectations. We spend what, 3 or 4 million last summer, on our return to the Premier League after being relegated the year before? Whoopifuckingdoo.. At the same time there's no need to say that they're trying to shift on dead wood to free up space for new players (if that is the case) if the only benefit of it is to stop people from spending all of their time on messageboards over analysing every comment to death. To be honest, I sometimes think the people at the club should communicate more and better with the fans, but if all they can come out with is bollocks like this from Pardew it makes me wonder if we're all not better off if they just shut up and implemented their great "five year plan" in silence... (When are we supposed to be "challenging for everything" again Derek?)

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese.. Like the club would say that. Has any other club released a statement like that? Statements saying players have been told they don't have a future at a club happen all the time.

Like the 'no capital outlay this summer' quotes before we went out and signed Tiote and Ben Arfa? Surely that should tell you not to jump to conclusions from quotes and statements. Oh, I don't need to go back until the summer to find some quotes that have later been proved to be misleading, and I'm sure neither would you if you tried real hard to remember what happened in January.. Fact is there is no reason for these quotes or the one you just mentioned from last year other than to gradually lower our expectations. We spend what, 3 or 4 million last summer, on our return to the Premier League after being relegated the year before? Whoopifuckingdoo..

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese..

Two very concrete things: 1) some very tangible, worrying quotes by Pardew (see above) 2) previous experience with Ashley & Co Personally I have much more trouble understanding people who can't read the club's statements for what their worth and seemingly forget the past transfer window(s) fiascos every time a new one starts..

Perch. I don't remember Taylor and Williamson partnering each other off the top of my head to comment on them as a pairing, I presume Kadar will step up. Neil Taylor looks like he's being brought in as back up. Nobody that plays the defensive role but one of Barton, Guthrie, Smith or Gosling will fill in. ...... Now I'm not advocating that Perch or Smith should be relied on as back up because they shouldn't, however they are here taking a wage and I don't see the club allowing them to stay without being apart of the clubs 25 man squad, a number that's practically at it's limit. Which is why I think the 2 players he's talking about is on top of what we've got, then anyone else will be replaced 1 for 1 with hopefully upgrades to improve the first team or squad. We know the club have been drip feeding stories to the local press about players being told they can leave and the hope is that if we can shift them that we will bring in better players as replacements, fingers crossed that the market starts picking up now clubs are starting pre season training and that we can move the dead wood on. So that's Perch (s***), Kadar (promising but extremely injury prone himself), Naylor (if he signs; played at Conference level under a year ago) and "nobody"/Smith.. Enough said I think? Also, if the club plan to shift the deadwood and only replace them if and when this happens, why not say so, rather than explicitly stating one or two players will come in?

If we sell all our players we won't have any players!!! That's not what I said or even inferred. If you would have read on you would have seen that I believe we have very little cover as thing stand (i.e. even including the players I mentioned as possibly leaving based on media speculation), especially in all defensive positions. One or two addition doesn't cut it, simple as.. If you disagree, I would like you to try and answer the questions I asked in the paragraph following the one you so eloquently responded to: Who will play right back if Simpson gets injured? Who will we have to fall back on if Coloccini gets injured? Firstly Taylor and Williamson don't look at all complimentary as players, and what do we have behind these three options? One injury to one of our CB's (especially Colo) and we are in a spot of bother.. Who will replace Enrique effectively if he leaves or gets injured? We have not had decent cover at left back for years.. An injury, and one of our strongest position instantly becomes a glaring weakness on the team sheet Who have we got to take over Tiote's role if he gets injured, or even during the African Cup of Nations..?

I find this latest set of quotes from Pardew very disconcerting... As others have said, to only bring in one or two more players will mean we will have a very thin squad again next season. As things stand, we are one injury away from huge problems in quite a big number of positions, and that is before taking into account possible outgoings such as Enrique, Barton, but also squad players such as Routledge, Best, Ranger, Guthrie and the likes... Who will play right back if Simpson gets injured? Who will we have to fall back on if Coloccini gets injured? Firstly Taylor and Williamson don't look at all complimentary as players, and what do we have behind these three options? One injury to one of our CB's (especially Colo) and we are in a spot of bother.. Who will replace Enrique effectively if he leaves or gets injured? We have not had decent cover at left back for years.. An injury, and one of our strongest positions instantly becomes a glaring weakness on the team sheet Who have we got to take over Tiote's role if he gets injured, or even during the African Cup of Nations..? We look slightly more balanced numerically in midfield and attack, even though we could do with a real injection of quality up front. On paper, we have a decent first team, but there are too many positions where we are royally f***ed if our first (and sometimes only) choice player gets injured for any amount of time, or gets sold off because we receive an offer "we could not refuse" on transfer deadline day. Just one or two additions will not give us the required squad depth to seriously challenge for anything more than midtable. Well, that was predictable, wasn't it..? The "like new players" line, and so early in the window too.. Is Pardew suffering from amnesia or what? To count Ben Arfa and Dan Gosling as new signings is one thing, but to conveniently forget about a number of outgoings is quite another. Besides Nolan, we have also lost Campbell as centre back cover, Ireland in midfield, Kuqi in attack (not going into a debate about the value to the squad - we have lost them as options to bring on in an hour of need) already this summer. I would also argue due to the timing of the transfer of Carroll, and the inability to properly replace him at the time as a consequence, we have also lost him, and when we compare last season's squad with next season's, he should also be considered. All in all we have lost our two highest goalscorers and a few squad players. We have (significantly?) strengthened the midfield, but have essentially gone backwards in defense and attack so far. Hatem is not a signing. I understand Pardew hopes he can get Ben Arfa and Gosling playing at their ability, because if he does he will have one very good and one quite decent player at his disposal, but we also have to face reality here: they have both suffered very serious injuries that may have a significant impact on the rest of their careers. They may not come back as good as they were/could have been, or they may be more injury prone in the future. I really hope this will not happen, as both players could have a great future with us, but we have to also be prepared just in case.. Pardew expects Ba to score between 15 to 25 goals! Seriously? I think we will be very lucky if he stays more or less injury free and scores 15. He has a good record in a dozen matches with West Ham, but to expect him to be amongst the league's top scorers next season is asking a bit much.. Also, this statement seems to infer Ba has been brought in as our main striker. Whilst I rate him higher than our current set of strikers, I was certainly hoping we would replace Carroll with a slightly higher calibre of forward. Again, I am pleased with getting Ba on board, especially on a free, but compared to last season's squad (with Carroll) I think we have certainly not yet made the progress in this area that Carroll's transfer fee should enable us to do, and statements like this make me worried that we don't intend to do so either. Marveaux didn't play a lot last season because of his contract situation? Does Pardew even know we are (once again) gambling on a notoriously injury prone player to take us forward? From this comment, it doesn't look like we are definitely after a first team striker. Considering the fact we have squad forwards aplenty, if we are after another striker it should surely be somebody with the profile to wear the number 9 shirt at NUFC? Why is there no new contract for Joey at the moment? Didn't Pardew himself say earlier how much he wanted to keep Joey at the club? Surely he would want to keep him here longer if he truly believes Barton had a fantastic season last year..? Also, one year contracts will be the norm!? Where is he even getting this stuff from? We are handing out 5 and 6 years contracts like there is not tomorrow for f***'s sake.. Who is to say Joey will get a contract he finds acceptable in a year's time? Is this a face off or something? Why, if you believe he had a fantastic season and you see no reason he will not play even better next season, do you doubt he will get a contract elsewhere that would be acceptable for him, especially on a Bosman..? The entire Barton contract situation makes no sense at all to me, and it makes me worried what our intentions are with Barton and Enrique this transfer window. To me it looks like we are trying to convey a message how we want them to stay and excell for us next season, whlst in reality we will jump at the first chance to cash in on them. Admittedly, I am very cautious of Ashley based on what has happened in the past, and maybe I am reading too much into these quotes, but they certainly do nothing to ease my worries. I am happy with our transfer window activity so far, but we have to push on here, as this is an excellent opportunity (with the Carroll money available and relative stability after avoiding relegation more easily than expected) to show a bit of ambition and get NUFC back to where it should be (challenging for Europe).

Well, well, well..

Hope we're not lining him up as Tiote's replacement...