Unbelievable

Pen for Croatia..

Cool camera position from straight above the centre circle..

Like who? A top player costs >15 million in this market and won't come cheap in wages either. What you are talking about is bringing in a few youngsters who MIGHT make it at this level. For any of them to become the best in the world is a big ask I would think, and that is exactly what Ronaldinho is. Of course Ronaldinho is risky in his own right for different reasons, but his quality is indisputable and I think there would always be takers in the case it wouldn't turn out, because he has phenomenal technique and his a big name for any president of any club to be associated with..

100% correct in my opinion, half a dozen solid players will achieve far more in footballing terms. Finding them however is not always so easy. How exactly? A club can only have 11 players on the pitch at any one time. We are talking about Premiership clubs here, and in the case of Manchester City they already have plenty of good players on 40k a week. A top quality player wins you games you otherwise would't win, and I'm sure most of us realise Ronaldinho is in that bracket, if not one of the best in the world at it. We have plenty of so-called good players on 40k a week and they simply crumble when faced with players of a higher calibre. Trying to bring in players from a level above if they are available and would be willing to come could be the difference between midtable and possibly breaking the top 4, in which case income from Champions League football will offset the spending. Yes, it is a risky strategy, but you don't break into the top 4 from midtable without taking risks anymore unfortunately. We took the risk before under Shepher and it sort of blew up in our face eventually. Now we have a new owner and it is crunch time for him: will he take a risk and invest accordingly or consolidate, which in this case is moving backwards seeing as our competitors aren't fannying about..? wonder how many times this has to be repeated until the message gets through It's quality that counts Yes it is quality that counts, but one single player does not make a team, never has done. They need to get better players across the board, to break into the top 4, not one star player. What happens when he is injured? Top teams all have strength in depth, that in my opinion is the stepping stone to success, not wasting money on a former galactico who is just playing for one last pay packet. Top teams have top players, midtable teams have midtable players. You don't move from midtable to top by buying more "midtable" players. Oh, and to call Ronaldinho a former galatico who is just playing for one last pay packet is very, very premature if you ask me. As I said earlier, he has only just turned 28 and it isn't long ago he was World player of the year in back to back seasons. He's just had a bad season for his standards, partly due to injuries. There is nothing to suggest he will not be amongst the best players in the world for years to come, especially as his game was never about pace or strength. The guy is top class quality, and that's not something you lose overnight..

100% correct in my opinion, half a dozen solid players will achieve far more in footballing terms. Finding them however is not always so easy. How exactly? A club can only have 11 players on the pitch at any one time. We are talking about Premiership clubs here, and in the case of Manchester City they already have plenty of good players on 40k a week. A top quality player wins you games you otherwise would't win, and I'm sure most of us realise Ronaldinho is in that bracket, if not one of the best in the world at it. We have plenty of so-called good players on 40k a week and they simply crumble when faced with players of a higher calibre. Trying to bring in players from a level above if they are available and would be willing to come could be the difference between midtable and possibly breaking the top 4, in which case income from Champions League football will offset the spending. Yes, it is a risky strategy, but you don't break into the top 4 from midtable without taking risks anymore unfortunately. We took the risk before under Shepher and it sort of blew up in our face eventually. Now we have a new owner and it is crunch time for him: will he take a risk and invest accordingly or consolidate, which in this case is moving backwards seeing as our competitors aren't fannying about..?

Ashley and Co have got you all exactly where they want it seems with the braindrain of keeping the wage bill under control and putting in place a sensible scouting approach. Rather than wanting to see the best possible players appear in the black and white shirt the majority of the fans is more concerned with keeping the wage bill neat and tidy and the balance in check. Whilst I admit it is important to be financially intelligent in planning for success and a good scouting team can yield important results, there is no denying the players we put out every week are below par if we (and Ashley) want to achieve our aims. Scouting youngsters is by no means an easy way to success as well. Almost all other clubs do it, so what´s to say we will achieve in attracting the best possible talents in the world to here instead of to the big four or in the first team of their current club? Other clubs that we are in direct competition with are taking risks and spending big, which means we will only fall further behind the ones that succeed if we don´t. Of course some will fail, but you have to be in it to win it, and at this point in time if we are not prepared to take some risks we will go nowhere. There is still time in this transfer window, and I´m not saying we will not attract any quality players, but if Man City get Ronaldinho the way Spurs got Modric we will have to spend big to consolidate our midtable status, let alone move forward. When Ashley first came here people were adament the only way Ashley could get a profit from us was by bringing us success and that big spendings were going to be needed. Things have changed in the minds of people apparently, and now it is other clubs deploying the strategy that seemed appropriate for us at the time, yet somehow they are being ridiculed for taking risks because they may not pay off. So far, I am impressed by the levels of ambitions shown by other clubs outside the top 4 (Spurs, Portsmouth, City) and slightly underwhelmed by our own. I hope the board prove me wrong.

I´m amazed that some people on here talk about Ronaldinho as if he´s completely finished. He´s just turned 28 ffs and is a double World Player of the Year winner. What´s more, his game was never really about pace, so I fail to see why he couldn´t be amongst the best players in Europe for years to come.. He pisses all over our squad, and I would much, much rather pay him 200k a week than spend it on Barton, Smith and Geremi..

This could have gone in the Euro 2008 thread but hey.. Both games were a little disappointing. Switzerland didn´t deserve to lose but both teams looked poor. Portugal deserved their win and look a favourite to win the Euros.

Nearly everyone thought Allardyce was just what we needed at the time (and in the circumstances before the takeover) tbf. Me included, and I've admitted so a number of times. Same here. 85% of us did according to that thread. 75% of us thought appointing Roeder after he had got us into Europe was the right decision. My point isn´t that these have turned out to be great appointments, just that they weren´t `wrong` when they happened, they just turned out to be.. In my opinion with the way Shepherd was willing to spend on players more than our competition at the time he couldn´t have done much more than he did. Oh, and I was referring to Ozzie and NE5´s discussion above..

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. This is what you thought off Allardyce before he came to us Ozzie http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=38118.msg765469#msg765469

as i said earlier english players are overrated by the media and casual fans but those who know their football tend to do the opposite and over-criticise them 'terry is s****, totally out of his depth' ' lampard is fat & f***ing woeful' and so on. im guilty of that myself. i also don't see english fans bigging up mediocre players like marlon harewood or darius vassel the same way egyptians blather on about mido, for one example. When you look at player valuations, asking prices and transfer fees it's not difficult to see why English players are (quite literally) overrated. Except for the very best English players it is quite easy to find a cheaper and better alternative abroad. What you're referring to is how players are rated subjectively. In the subjective sense players tend to be either bigged up or slagged down in a very black and white way, just like C. Ronaldo is now. He was shit before, practically enemy of the state, now everybody seems to want to make babies with him..

Fine, I will shut up about it. Hoping for Croatia and Poland wins tomorrow..

Which experts would those be? Anyway, it's rubbish. We have never had a squad with this many young, technical football players. In fact, I'd say the weak link in our attacking play is Van Nistelrooij, and we would be better off playing with Huntelaar, as he is more technical as well. Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Robben, Van Persie and Huntelaar and one controlling midfield player and we would be unplayable for most defenses in this competition. Our attackers in the 70's weren't that great; it was the midfielders who stood out, especially Cruyff and Van Hanegem. The 80's were poor by all accounts, except for '88 and Van Basten, but you may be surprised Van Basten wasn't considered to be a first team player at the start of the competition. The 90's were good, mainly because of Bergkamp, Van Basten (first half of the decade) and Kluivert (second half of the decade), but I do think we have some exceptional players at this point in time. Shame some are so injury prone, especially Robben and Van Persie.. Numerous elder statesmen in the Dutch game. Was in FourFourTwo. Oh right, some grey heads saying everything was better back then; I'm convinced.. The reality is that football has progressed a lot since then (especially physically), and most players from back then couldn't lace the shoes of many current players (if you put them in the team now the way they were then that is and obviously excluding a few exceptional players). Most players smoked in the 70´s for a start..

Kluivert has a career before he came to Newcastle you know..? Babel has had as good a first season as could be expected from a youngster moving to a new league and adjusting his game and Kuyt is a regular in one of the top 4 and one off the most loved players at his clubs wherever he goes. I predict you will bring up his goalscoring record in the Premiership, but he has so many more strings to his bow. Kuyt is rubbish. Nothing but a workhorse. Van Persie and van Nistelrooy are the only strikers I can think of who've come over from the Dutch league and done the business. there was this fella called bergkamp...... came here from Serie A Right, that obviously disqualifies him as a player who came from a so called lesser footballing country and made a name for himself abroad.. go to bed. Will do.. Doesn't change the fact that these arguments of people coming from the lesser footballing countries often being overrated (more so than players from England) or strikers coming from the Dutch league often failing to impress abroad are both nonsense.. not really. some strikers from the dutch league who score ridiculous amounts of goals come over here and find it hard to get goals. it does seem to be a very easy league in which to score. let's just say i hope we don't sign shota arveladze, robin nelisse and gerald sibon this summer. as for the original point, wullie is spot on. you think the turkish fans who came on here when we played fener or when Tuncay was linked to us were being reasonable when they made posts like 'tuncay gonna rip you open, he's far too good for newcastle, if he leaves it will be to man utd or real madrid, one of europes best players etc etc'. we've had similar comments with Emre when he first arrived, and even WORSE when fatty Mido was linked to us. i'm not so sure there's english fans trawling the net telling overseas fans that James Milner and Marlon Harewood (comparable players to the ones mentioned) are off to Barca and AC MIlan and going to win the world cup for us. Robin Nelisse has never scored bucketloads and is mediocre, even in the Dutch league, Sibon is a fairly good player but has never been spectacular, and Arveladze was a very good player at that level. Apart from Sibon these players have never set foot in England afaik, so doesn't really answer my question. One player I can imagine you may refer to is Kezman and you would be right he has been dissapointing since he moved away from PSV. However, he is also disappointing in another "lesser league". However, I don't think you can dismiss that some of the best strikers in the world in the past decade(s) have come through the Dutch league (Ronaldo, Romario, Van Nistelrooij, Bergkamp) so I will keep dismissing the idea that players of other leagues are overrated more so than their English counterparts. If any, it's English players that are regularly overrated and more importantly overpriced.

Which experts would those be? Anyway, it's rubbish. We have never had a squad with this many young, technical football players. In fact, I'd say the weak link in our attacking play is Van Nistelrooij, and we would be better off playing with Huntelaar, as he is more technical as well. Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Robben, Van Persie and Huntelaar and one controlling midfield player and we would be unplayable for most defenses in this competition. Our attackers in the 70's weren't that great; it was the midfielders who stood out, especially Cruyff and Van Hanegem. The 80's were poor by all accounts, except for '88 and Van Basten, but you may be surprised Van Basten wasn't considered to be a first team player at the start of the competition. The 90's were good, mainly because of Bergkamp, Van Basten (first half of the decade) and Kluivert (second half of the decade), but I do think we have some exceptional players at this point in time. Shame some are so injury prone, especially Robben and Van Persie..

Scotland could claim the same thing tbh. You have a fabulous sense of humour..

That may be so, but if so it will be in big part because of the opposition in the group. I mean, both World Cup finalists ffs. With opposition such as on show tonight or tomorrow we would walk the first round, and I seriously believe we have one of the best attacks in the competition. The defence is a concern though..

Kluivert has a career before he came to Newcastle you know..? Babel has had as good a first season as could be expected from a youngster moving to a new league and adjusting his game and Kuyt is a regular in one of the top 4 and one off the most loved players at his clubs wherever he goes. I predict you will bring up his goalscoring record in the Premiership, but he has so many more strings to his bow. Kuyt is rubbish. Nothing but a workhorse. Van Persie and van Nistelrooy are the only strikers I can think of who've come over from the Dutch league and done the business. there was this fella called bergkamp...... came here from Serie A Right, that obviously disqualifies him as a player who came from a so called lesser footballing country and made a name for himself abroad.. go to bed. Will do.. Doesn't change the fact that these arguments of people coming from the lesser footballing countries often being overrated (more so than players from England) or strikers coming from the Dutch league often failing to impress abroad are both nonsense..

Kluivert has a career before he came to Newcastle you know..? Babel has had as good a first season as could be expected from a youngster moving to a new league and adjusting his game and Kuyt is a regular in one of the top 4 and one off the most loved players at his clubs wherever he goes. I predict you will bring up his goalscoring record in the Premiership, but he has so many more strings to his bow. Kuyt is rubbish. Nothing but a workhorse. Van Persie and van Nistelrooy are the only strikers I can think of who've come over from the Dutch league and done the business. there was this fella called bergkamp...... came here from Serie A Right, that obviously disqualifies him as a player who came from a so called lesser footballing country and made a name for himself abroad..

Kluivert has a career before he came to Newcastle you know..? Babel has had as good a first season as could be expected from a youngster moving to a new league and adjusting his game and Kuyt is a regular in one of the top 4 and one off the most loved players at his clubs wherever he goes. I predict you will bring up his goalscoring record in the Premiership, but he has so many more strings to his bow. Kuyt is rubbish. Nothing but a workhorse. Van Persie and van Nistelrooy are the only strikers I can think of who've come over from the Dutch league and done the business. You may want to look up Van Basten, Kluivert, Mackaay and a few others on wikipedia, or are you talking about the Premiership, in which case I'd include Robben who transformed Chelsea in his first two campaigns, and Bergkamp of course, unless you think he was s***..? All in all, I can't believe we are even debating the quality of Dutch strikers when I look at what England can muster in that position.. Christ. All I was saying is that the likes of Kuyt, Kezman scored a million goals in Holland but went elsewhere and have struggle. They performed well in a lesser league. Players move clubs. Sometimes they do well at their new club, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they are not suited to a particular league, and rip another league apart. I was taking offence to the lesser footballing country reference, and that players from these so called lesser leagues were bigged up unjustly. I think a player can be praised for how well he did in a particular league. If he moves clubs and fails, be it in the same country or another, that doesn't make him a shit player. I'll refer to Shevschenko for example; for years he was considered the best striker in the world. Is he shit, or has he always been shit, just because things don't seem to work out for him at Chelsea? The world of football doesn't end with the Premiership you know..

Kluivert has a career before he came to Newcastle you know..? Babel has had as good a first season as could be expected from a youngster moving to a new league and adjusting his game and Kuyt is a regular in one of the top 4 and one off the most loved players at his clubs wherever he goes. I predict you will bring up his goalscoring record in the Premiership, but he has so many more strings to his bow. Kuyt is rubbish. Nothing but a workhorse. Van Persie and van Nistelrooy are the only strikers I can think of who've come over from the Dutch league and done the business. You may want to look up Van Basten, Kluivert, Mackaay and a few others on wikipedia, or are you talking about the Premiership, in which case I'd include Robben who transformed Chelsea in his first two campaigns, and Bergkamp of course, unless you think he was shit..? All in all, I can't believe we are even debating the quality of Dutch strikers when I look at what England can muster in that position..

did really well for Boro after the initial first few months of adjusting. but he always looks incredibly raw to me, like an 18 year old kid needing to work on his technique and tactical awareness. My Smog mate really doesn't rate him at all. He's scored a few good/important goals for them but he never has above about a 7/10 when I've seen him. Just goes to show how far overrated some players can be when they come from lesser footballing countries (but then we already knew that). Like from England you mean..? No. Oh, sorry. Could have fooled me seeing as one country has qualified and the other hasn't.. I'm quite clearly talking about the quality of the league. Unless you think the Turkish league is as strong as the Premiership? That's fair enough then. So by footballing country you mean the league, including foreign players..? In that case Holland (and Turkey as well) is a s*** footballing country, you're right, but I think that defintion is very debatable.. Semantics tbh. I probably could have phrased it better. Ok Wullie, will let it be.. I was impressed with Portugal. I have always thought they needed an out-and-out striker, and they still lack a top class striker many other teams have, but they have so many people in midfield running forward and capable of scoring a goal I fear they are in with a real chance to win this time. I also think they look stronger now they have shedded some of their older players (Figo etc)..

Kluivert has a career before he came to Newcastle you know..? Babel has had as good a first season as could be expected from a youngster moving to a new league and adjusting his game and Kuyt is a regular in one of the top 4 and one off the most loved players at his clubs wherever he goes. I predict you will bring up his goalscoring record in the Premiership, but he has so many more strings to his bow.

did really well for Boro after the initial first few months of adjusting. but he always looks incredibly raw to me, like an 18 year old kid needing to work on his technique and tactical awareness. My Smog mate really doesn't rate him at all. He's scored a few good/important goals for them but he never has above about a 7/10 when I've seen him. Just goes to show how far overrated some players can be when they come from lesser footballing countries (but then we already knew that). Like from England you mean..? No. Oh, sorry. Could have fooled me seeing as one country has qualified and the other hasn't.. I'm quite clearly talking about the quality of the league. Unless you think the Turkish league is as strong as the Premiership? That's fair enough then. So by footballing country you mean the league, including foreign players..? In that case Holland (and Turkey as well) is a shit footballing country, you're right, but I think that defintion is very debatable..

I'd be interested in knowing who..? Can't have been Van Nistelrooij, Kluivert, Bergkamp, Robben, Van Persie, Babel, Kuyt, Hasselbaink and the likes.