Unbelievable

Oh fuck this shit

Liverpool is currently 10th on 12 points. Considering our tougher than average start of the season I would say 9 points from those 8 games would have been about on target.

That applies to the top teams too though Ian. If one of them has a upcoming fixture list of four teams aiming for midtable like we supposedly are I'd think they would happily take 8-9 points from those 12..

It's true that we've had a tough start to the season and I did expect us to be near the bottom, but if our aim is top 8-10 we should have had more points from those opening fixtures than the currrent 3, or even the 5 you mention. Realistically I would have said 3 points minimum from Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal and City, 3 from Watford and another 3 minimum from Southampton, Swansea and West Ham. So we're about -6 from where you would expect us to be. No reason for outright panic, but the pressure is definitely on and if we don't pick up sharpish we could be down and out before Christmas.

This club

"We have one here and we are sticking to it, and we know if we do the process right and we go through painful times, which we have to, when it gets right, it will be very good." We have to go through painful times do we now?

Good read that. Depressing like. Although I agree with the sentiment and the "bright lights" of London argument (see Remy) I also believe that another London factor has caused our demise, Ashley. Neville touched on it briefly by talking about the disconnect between owner, manager and fans, but I believe with an ambitious Owner in the mould of Hall when he first took over would see us still fighting near the top. The main trouble is the money and never has it been truer than today that you speculate to accumulate and the rich get richer while the poor get poorer. There's so much money sloshing round at the top that makes it nay on impossible to challenge without finding the perfect chemistry between manager and players at a lower budget. With Ashley in charge and his two-bit football-retarded MD we have absolutely no chance of stumbling across the perfect formula. Our mighty messiah will turn us into that which "he saved us from" the next Leeds or even Hull, we should be so lucky to be as good as Wednesday. With Hall and Keegan we had vision and ambition and yes maybe some delusions of grandeur but we gave it a shot, we defied all the odds and we stood toe to toe with the best the country had to offer, that's why we could entice the players away from London. Who wants to play for "let's aim for 8th but top 10 would be awesome"? Who wants to play for the mighty McClaren? London didn't take it away from us Ashley did. Take a bow sir

Will be at work until at least 19:15pm

Incredible that Lowes gets stuck into McClaren after 6 games having refused to criticise Pardew over the last three seasons. Also interesting to hear that McClaren seems to speak more confidently the more he gets pressured, even though he still waffles a lot and seems lost as to what the solutions might be. The way he always finishes his sentences on a high note drives me mad though. Somewhere down the line he must have had someone advising him on how to deal with the media and this must have been advised, because it sounds unnatural as fuck

The symbolism of that pic with Jesus Hatem welcoming us with open arms to join his party on an evening where this club once more went out to lower league opposition in a cup game without a whisper

If he thinks the criticism was bad before wait until he picks up tomorrow's papers. The season and his reign has only just started but we're already in a tailspin.

This has me worried: "There was a nervous feeling around the ground.”

A fighter or a victor. Sounds good either way Lee Cheers for the link Dave

Ashley has transformed us into Sunderland Mk II

*gulp* Is the post match interview online somewhere?

Get in, this hasn't really happened?

I know it's hard to say anything that sounds respectable in such a situation, but those quotes are just utter platitudes. I have no confidence at all in him instilling any motivation in the players ahead of two extremely difficult fixtures. Pardew was absolutely rank, but he did have a knack of getting unexpected results against stronger opponents. Hopefully McClaren can do the same; he needs it as I think two big losses with more horrible performances may well be the end of any chance we have of staying up (Mike won't sack him and McClaren himself will not walk without a huge payoff).

He is a decent bloke. So when he says we had plenty of possession in the final third and a few people from here who were at the game say we barely got in their half, who should I believe? I was one of them As an individual there's no issue. It's the s**** he's currently sending out that's the problem. I know you were one of them. Seems odd that you reaction to something you know is a blatant misrepresentation is to say he is a decent bloke in response to my suggestion that he was being dishonest.

He is a decent bloke. So when he says we had plenty of possession in the final third and a few people from here who were at the game say we barely got in their half, who should I believe?

But but but, isn't McClaren supposed to be an honest bloke who tells it like it is..?

I stand by that. With the right manager it is, no doubt in my mind. There's so much more to it than McClaren, man. I'm talking midtable, not top 6 or something? Would you have West Brom's squad over ours? Leicester's? Villa's? Stoke's? Our squad is flawed, seriously flawed even, but your average, midtable Premier League club doesn't have a significantly better or deeper squad than ours in my opinion. That's not just true today, it's true for the past three to four years of unmitigated failure where three consecutive managers have failed to get it playing at its potential, let alone have it be more than the sum of its parts.

As reasonable an explanation as I have ever read for the continuous mess we find ourselves in.

I stand by that. With the right manager it is, no doubt in my mind.