Yorkie

You put primacy on the league position. All of the other things you've talked about aren't going to be particularly different/disappear whether we finish 8th/9th or 14th/15th. We can't unsign Elanga and we're not going to be suddenly very slick on the road. We'll pick up the odd result here and there at least, and the other teams in this cluster are all fairly inconsistent.

Well fine, if you think he should be sacked for all those reasons then that makes more sense. If we are done as any sort of force under this manager then we should look to replace him. I was responding to this:

I'm not saying they are. I'm saying that basing your decision to keep or remove the manager on something as arbitrary as 'did we finish 14th instead of 13th' is senseless. Also Ange is definitely absolutely shite, howay. Never cut out for the PL.

But what difference does it actually make, compared to all the other ways you might measure the suitability of a manager? @HaydnNUFC referenced Ange earlier; that's the perfect demonstration of it not being about the binary results. Ange won the Europa League but got peddled cos he was an absolutely dogshit manager and needed removing if they had any hope at all of progressing. Where we finish this season will be a fair and true reflection of how we have performed in the league this season. But it isn't necessarily an indicator of where we'll finish next season. That's the difference between Howe and Dalglish/Souness. Their finishes clearly were a demonstration of what was to come if they had stayed. In Howe's case, he has a mountain of evidence to suggest it's a blip rather than an indicator of the direction of travel.

Genuinely don't see why it matters where we finish tbh. If it's outside of Europe or the relegation zone, it's basically arbitrary, especially if the points difference between 8th-14th continued to be pretty negligible. Is the squad still invested in the manager? Is the manager's philosophy still implementable? Are the manager and directors still all on the same page/are their boundaries established/can they collaborate effectively? What's the direction of travel after this dip? Can we do well in the cups under this manager? These are what we should be basing any decisions on re the manager's future. Not "we finished 14th instead of 10th so get rid."

Previous username?

I loved Miggy but he stopped being useful before the start of last season and left in January. Elanga filled an empty space.

He's been criticised plenty. Not by me, granted, and I wouldn't criticise him for his recruitment choices especially - even Elanga, who we had a free run at like you say. He and Wissa have been duds so far but both have been playing at levels way, way below what they did for previous clubs. I can't really blame the manager for that; he didn't elect to sign this version of these players. I think the Elanga think is overstated by our fans anyway. He's been poor but he isn't the reason why we've regressed; he replaced Miguel Almiron. We've not lost anything by his signing, on the pitch anyway (remains to be seen what the financial repercussions will be). The biggest issues with the personnel is Wissa and not getting a goalkeeper. Brentford's Wissa and Trafford in the side all season and I reckon we're easily in the top 8.

Well I've personally never said that. I put it as reason number one, comfortably, for why we've regressed but it's not the only reason. (Reason, not excuse)

Probably for the best that you stick me on ignore for a bit in that case

Christ. They've been not a total laughing stock for about five minutes and he's back on the charm offensive.

"Will give him every chance," were his actual words.

Yep, well said. The manager isn't without accountability of course, but getting rid of him would be like flying through turbulence and sacking the pilot.

That's why I said this yesterday: Feel like it's broadly been forgotten about thanks to our mini resurgence where we miraculously looked really energetic against Villa and Qarabag. The issue hasn't gone away and is only going to get worse, especially if there's illness in the squad now.

No, think you're misreading something somewhere.

Obviously, but I'm not jumping in again, I have to earn my salary at some point or other.

give over ffs

I'd have probably agreed even if he'd meant this season tbh. Him and Barnes are on par really; they've taken it in turns to be the one.

I don't think it's reductive to make the point that we've had worse transfer windows in the recent past. I wasn't interested in making direct comparisons but in 12/13 we were in a position of strength and nearly went down. In 15/16 we spent a fortune and did go down. The rest of your post is another topic. I wouldn't argue too strongly against the notion that the manager hasn't juggled his balls as effectively as he might've.

Just an insanely reductive way to present the situation. Even if you're going to take the net spend angle (which is redundant nowadays), it's "£89m to go from CL contenders to mid-table whilst competing in all three cup competitions."

But we didn't have the chance to kick on. It didn't exist; never there, never happening. As soon as Isak called it quits, we were going backwards, it was just a matter of limiting the fall. What the transfer window provided is a squad which has - despite relentless injuries and hideous cup draws - delivered progress in the FA Cup, a very creditable defence of the League Cup, a place in the Last 16 of the CL and - as it stands - an outside chance of exceeding our revenue/league position for the fourth season running. I'm as gutted about Wissa and Elanga as anyone and recognise the financial implications if those signings don't work out. But the hyperbole is unbearable at times. And I still say there's time left to make a judgement on all of these buys. Sandro Tonali was one of our worst ever buys in November 2023.

Oh for the days of Vurnon Anita or de Jong/Rivieire/Cabella et al. Christ almighty, lads.

Thanks for putting that together, man. The way he moved with the ball was truly a sight to behold when we first got him. Probably the most unique talent I'd ever seen pull one a black and white shirt. Joyful. Looking forward to the 11/12 version. x

Would take a draw. All about damage limitation from here and staying vaguely connected to the mix in time for us to focus all-in on the league.

Can't get the sixth