fredbob

idiots. Nah seriously....that's the first time I've heard about it. Earlier in the thread, a few people were saying that if Zoggy had been given the same coaching and consideration that Ronaldo had been given during his early, sticky times at Man U, things would have been very different for Zoggy. Not the best comparsion, I don't think, because they are not exactly equals in terms of innate talent. For me, the better comparison would be Ashley Cole, because I think Zoggy's ability would ultimately be best used as an attacking left back, and they aren't too dissimilar in their strengths. Cole struggled at first, but came good in the end. Even then, I think that attitude rather than coaching is the main difference. I dont see him as a full back at all - he doesnt have the positional awareness and defensive capabilites to be fully effective there, Cole has had the benfit of playing there and learning his trade there from a very young age, coupled with an excellent environment to thrive. i think the comparison between Zog and Ronaldo is fair enough to be honest, Ronaldo at 18 reminds me of Zog of the present day. Only difference is that Ronaldo has had a fantastic environment to thrive, has played very consistmnently (not dropped unneccassarily or been dropped in favour of a home nation player or even played out of position) and has been able to learn from his experience despite having "indifferent seasons", (6, 9, 12 goals) ie seasons where he has obviously not been the player he could be. I genuinely feel for Zog - we had a thread on him a while back where i got slated for defending him, he's had a shitty time here both on and off the field, i think people are really underrating the ability to go round a player, not many players in the world can go round aplayer as easily as Zog does, that CAN be harnessed and should of been developed along time ago.

The multiple different managers and coaches probably havent helped either. I know that doesnt absolve him completely but consitency in the coaching and management would have helped some On the other side of the coin though, you'd think if he really had something one of them might have spotted & nurtured it? SBR tried, out of all the manager we've had in recent times, i'll trust his wisdom.

The multiple different managers and coaches probably havent helped either. I know that doesnt absolve him completely but consitency in the coaching and management would have helped some probably the for reason milner aswell then,taylor also,and duff as he was a good player till he came here. Milner and Taylor arent as technically proficient as he is, Milner is fundamanetally flawed as a player lacking pace and the ability to cross and Taylor for me has no excuse as he's played 100 games in predominantly his main position and has had plenty of oppurtunity to defend. Zog has played all over and has the wind knocked out of him by having inferior players played in front of him. Taylor and Mailner have benefitted from the english bias.

So nothing fundamentally wrong with his game, all thing which can be worked on, Ronaldo had some similar problems in his first year but was given the environment and coaching to iron out those weaknesses. I see no reason why Zog cant solve these problems, hes eternally confident in his abilty and always looking to attack. i see it the other way around. technique etc can be worked on. nouse,finding and using space,picking the right,simple pass etc is not so easily taught. he has the raw ball skill type talent but is severly lacking in the other major areas. How do you explain Ronaldo's transformation from ball carrying antelope to the player he is today? With his decision making and less ball carrying and creativity. I see a lot of similarities between present day Zog and 18 year old Ronaldo. What areas do you think that Zog severly lacks in that cant be worked on to make him the player he could be? Assuming LW is his strongest position. experience. ronaldo learns from experience,n'zogbia doesn't. areas that n'zog lacks....already listed as lack of nouse,decision making,. raw skill wise n'zogbia is to me,as good as fabregas but instead of a player who can dribble 40 yds and take on 5 players without getting himself into a better position give me one who can make the correct pass over 10yds. Do you think Ronaldo would be the player he is now if he shared the same experience as Zog? I dont think you've named anything which cant be improved on, Ronaldo, Rooney even Henry are testeamanet of players being able to learn to improve decision making with the right coaching and environment.

So nothing fundamentally wrong with his game, all thing which can be worked on, Ronaldo had some similar problems in his first year but was given the environment and coaching to iron out those weaknesses. I see no reason why Zog cant solve these problems, hes eternally confident in his abilty and always looking to attack. i see it the other way around. technique etc can be worked on. nouse,finding and using space,picking the right,simple pass etc is not so easily taught. he has the raw ball skill type talent but is severly lacking in the other major areas. How do you explain Ronaldo's transformation from ball carrying antelope to the player he is today? With his decision making and less ball carrying and creativity. I see a lot of similarities between present day Zog and 18 year old Ronaldo. What areas do you think that Zog severly lacks in that cant be worked on to make him the player he could be? Assuming LW is his strongest position.

james milner has a similar ammount of nufc goals to his name,played out of position etc. don't forget n'zogbia played a few games there and he was the worst between himself,milner (out of position) and duff. "his actual position" based on what ? what the player himself thinks (central midfield), or his international manager (left back),or where he done best for us........but 2005-06 isn't a position is it ? He's been here since he's 17 and has played under 6 managers? Id defy any player with decent potential to thrive in those conditions, he's also had to sit and watch crap in front of him and for at least 2 times in his career watch favouritism take his place in the team.

So nothing fundamentally wrong with his game, all thing which can be worked on, Ronaldo had some similar problems in his first year but was given the environment and coaching to iron out those weaknesses. I see no reason why Zog cant solve these problems, hes eternally confident in his abilty and always looking to attack.

Distribution can always be worked on, however his ability to get forward is internal, unfortunately if he doesnt get forward at the right times and support the attack then he is a problme player for that reason alone. Defensively he is excellent, i genuinely cant fault him but he never gets forward at the right time, i cant remeber the last time i saw him put a cross in from the byline, contrast that with Beye and for me you see his one major flaw which is a genuine problem for the team. He's like the exact opposite of robert.

Quoted for truth. I cant see Kinnear dropping the under 21 england captian though. You'd of thought that he have the bollocks to drop Duff after Zog's assist last week but no.

It's pure frustration though. Swap the sides around and I'd expect everyone to be p***ed off by the opponent's tactics. Dont talk sense man.

My only concern with that back four is Enrique - defensively he is very good, people rarely get by him and he's very strong, but i think he gives away posession far too much, be interesting to see his passing stats, he also doesnt offer much going forward which is a real concern. The rest are very good and seem to have there role naile. (well on this perfomance anyway).

Think it'll be Denilson on loan.

You said you wanted to kill Wise, Keegan said he approved of the appointment. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2290428/Kevin-Keegan-relaxed-about-Dennis-Wise-role.html Kevin Keegan said last night that Newcastle's appointment of Dennis Wise to the management team had his blessing - provided that Keegan is allowed to get on with his job of turning the club into a major force in the Premier League. Wise, who confirmed his resignation as manager of Leeds United earlier in the day, was installed as Newcastle's executive director (football), effectively the club's unofficial director of football, and sat next to Chris Mort as his new team suffered a second 3-0 defeat at the Emirates Stadium in four days. "I think it's positive," Keegan said, "as long as I can get on with my job and I get all the help I need as it has been put to me. You'd be a fool to say, 'I don't want that'. "I talked with Dennis before the game and he wished us all the best. I knew he was one of two or three names put forward. "There's been no deception, it's been very open. I'm fine. I pretty much know, from conversations we've had, what Dennis is going to do and the idea, in principle, is very good, to go and look for new players, to bring a lot of youngsters in. "I'm all for the changes, it's not a problem, I approve of them. We had this discussion when I took the job. "They want somebody on the board who understands football and Dennis Wise, whatever anybody wants to write about him, understands football. I know Dennis and I think it'll work very well. He'll report to me." Wise, the former Chelsea captain, will be joined on Tyneside by Tony Jimenez as vice-president (player recruitment) and Jeff Vetere, who joins from Real Madrid to take up the position of technical co-ordinator. "This is all part of the vision that recently helped us to secure Kevin Keegan's return to the club as manager," Mort added. The arrival of Wise will have no impact on former Newcastle captain Alan Shearer's situation after he rejected the chance to become manager Kevin Keegan's No 2, though it seems certain he will have no formal involvement with his hometown club but will continue to concentrate on his media commitments. Keegan was able to include Joey Barton for the first time after his bail conditions were changed. Barton, 25, was charged with assault and affray last month, and ordered by a High Court judge to live in Hampshire and return by 7.30pm each day. He was being flown to training but has now been allowed to move to Newcastle and last night started the game on the substitutes' bench, coming on in the 56th minute for his first appearance since Dec 22. You are f***ing joking here I assume? Or you are a very stupid bloke. I remember very well when KK started under Ashley and Mort. We were all led to believe that this 'structure' was there to aid Keegan and more importantly take the club forward. We were reassured on several occasions, by Ashley, Wise and Mort that 'Kevin' had final say on players. Here's an obvious one: "I'm not here to be involved in the first team. I'm not here to manage. I'm here to help Kevin as much as possible with bringing young players through and also recommending certain players to him. He'll say yes or no. He has the final word, no one else. I'm not going to do things like bring players in behind his back, I'm not into that. Everything that happens will run past him and he'll say yes or no. I've bolded the pertinent words, as this appears to have escaped your notice. So theres no part of you which even entertains the thought that Keegan did have full say on transfers but was undermined when it became obvious that he was unable to name any suitable targets that fit into the clubs new transfer policy or was plain refusing the ones that Wise and co were suggesting?

I usually like what you have to say but that is absolute bullshit. The mere idea that a percentage of you dont even consider the other side of the coin, let alone let other people look at the other side of the coin without being lablelled an "arse licker" is quite frankly embarressing. who says people aren't understanding the other side of the coin? people have their own views but that lad has posted a FICTIONAL SCENARIO where he meets ashley on the train and hears this stuff. :lol: understand? it's made up, it's not real. the poster even said "not to be taken seriously" for god's sake. as a piece of fiction it's a good laugh, not a realistic depiction of events. i'd be embarrased for whoever took it as fact or a good reading of the situation. :lol: Is that your angle? Im not sure whats more embarressing, people believing taking that story for fact, or you believing that people are taking that story as fact purely becasue they acknolwedge that what s/he has described about Keegan is concievable. when i say taken as fact i mean the keegan-ashley bit, not the stuff about the train. "a good reading of the situation" = "acknowledge that what s/he had described about kegan is concievable" the fact he has presented the reading in the form of a silly 'script' just shows how light-hearted it is supposed to be. as a factual interpretation it is laughably bad with numerous holes, but again, that's not really the point, is it? this is a thread about imaginary scenarios, not objective reasoned analyses. Are you for real? So you're categorically saying that none of that is concievable? For whats it worth i dont agree with everything that is said in his story, but i do think that some of it could be very true. True enough to undermine some of the blind faith that a stupid amount fo people put into Keegan. not particularly. i'd point out a couple of points sidetracking the thread a bit to emphasise just how daft and mistake ridden the account is. though it;s to be expected, it's lighthearted speculation, not supposed to be a good, analytic reading of what happened. first -the bit about ashley clearing the debts - he made numerous contradictory statements about that based on what he thought the fans wanted to hear. first saying the club had cleared its debt, second that club didnt owe a penny to anyone and then, when he was begging for mercy, saying the club still owed loads. then harris confirmed the club had debts. shows that the referenced post got that wrong, and we can probably assume ashley is a liar on that issue. second - it says keegan phoned ashley wanting the job and saying he needed people to help him on the transfer front. well mort said the club contacted keegan through an acquiantance who said 'you'd be lucky' as to keegan's chances. so that's wrong. third - ferdinand cost less than coloccini. pretty simple fact to know, pretty fundamental error to make, totally undermines the point made. fourth - the post says keegan was presented with a list of players and didnt want anyone, that we went out and signed jonas and colo and then keegan left. well for starters, it's chronologically wrong, keegan looked happy after jonas and colo came in, particularly enthused about Jonas. the problems seemed to worsen later in the window. it's a very crude simplification (again, cos its a lighthearted post) that misses out the critical time period. just a brief start there, wont even get started on the kind of stuff it omits. but shows how, and i hate to be a broken record, that it is something to laugh at, not something to read and go "hmm, seems like a reasoned interpretation of events, spot on" Ok i can see why you would believe that i thought that story might be true - what you;ve said is all correct but you're still treating the story as an actual account, im not saying they are but i do believe that certain aspects are potentially true on a less scrutiniable scale - for example Keegan not wanting theplayers suggested to him and even suggesting high profule players, i beleive they could be true - and i feel that they are the main reasons that things fell apart. Thats why i feel Keegan is more responsible.... Anyway the threads getting side tracked. Bored Multi billionaire new owner willing to lavish money on the club - just so the prima donna nufc fans have little to complain about...

I usually like what you have to say but that is absolute bullshit. The mere idea that a percentage of you dont even consider the other side of the coin, let alone let other people look at the other side of the coin without being lablelled an "arse licker" is quite frankly embarressing. who says people aren't understanding the other side of the coin? people have their own views but that lad has posted a FICTIONAL SCENARIO where he meets ashley on the train and hears this stuff. :lol: understand? it's made up, it's not real. the poster even said "not to be taken seriously" for god's sake. as a piece of fiction it's a good laugh, not a realistic depiction of events. i'd be embarrased for whoever took it as fact or a good reading of the situation. :lol: Is that your angle? Im not sure whats more embarressing, people believing taking that story for fact, or you believing that people are taking that story as fact purely becasue they acknolwedge that what s/he has described about Keegan is concievable. when i say taken as fact i mean the keegan-ashley bit, not the stuff about the train. "a good reading of the situation" = "acknowledge that what s/he had described about kegan is concievable" the fact he has presented the reading in the form of a silly 'script' just shows how light-hearted it is supposed to be. as a factual interpretation it is laughably bad with numerous holes, but again, that's not really the point, is it? this is a thread about imaginary scenarios, not objective reasoned analyses. Are you for real? So you're categorically saying that none of that is concievable? For whats it worth i dont agree with everything that is said in his story, but i do think that some of it could be very true. True enough to undermine some of the blind faith that a stupid amount fo people put into Keegan.

I usually like what you have to say but that is absolute bullshit. The mere idea that a percentage of you dont even consider the other side of the coin, let alone let other people look at the other side of the coin without being lablelled an "arse licker" is quite frankly embarressing. who says people aren't understanding the other side of the coin? people have their own views but that lad has posted a FICTIONAL SCENARIO where he meets ashley on the train and hears this stuff. :lol: understand? it's made up, it's not real. the poster even said "not to be taken seriously" for god's sake. as a piece of fiction it's a good laugh, not a realistic depiction of events. i'd be embarrased for whoever took it as fact or a good reading of the situation. :lol: Is that your angle? Im not sure whats more embarressing, people believing taking that story for fact, or you believing that people are taking that story as fact purely becasue they acknolwedge that what s/he has described about Keegan is concievable.

I cant deny that because it did, my natural instinct was to dimiss it. I hold my hands up to that but I make no apology for it. Just the comment about Anton Ferdinand lost it any possible credibility. And I think that anyone who thinks that Keegan really suggested going to for top level players is just plain daft. KK is a dreamer but not that much Also, it was obviously based on an anti-KK bias as it appeared in a thread about a best possible scenario. The pops at KK just get to me. Its actually refreshing to hear some level headed loyalty to Keegan rather than the usual blind faithed messiah s*** im used to hearing. I really do repsect what Keegan has done for the club but im definitely in the group that believe that Keegan has played a substantial part in all this, as my edit above says, we targeted Modric a player who had raised interest with some of Europes top clubs and ended up with a utility player from nearly relegated premierhsip team. Its not actually that inconcievable. Its probably the twisting by the media thats helped inflame that argument. Their quoting of "Lampard, Henry, Beckham etc" in my mind was barmy and think they have heard "top players" and have come up with those names. I agree though that its not inconcievable for him to have gone in with a long list of names such as Modric etc. Bloody annoying that we are still talking about this 2 and a half months down the line. Very very true, i wish this would get sorted, to be honest i was fine with the level of silence around the club but i now think Ashley has scored a major own goal by not talking to the fans more often during the sale, if only Llambas had half the media "savvieness" of Mort, would make things much better at the club.

I usually like what you have to say but that is absolute bullshit. The mere idea that a percentage of you dont even consider the other side of the coin, let alone let other people look at the other side of the coin without being lablelled an "arse licker" is quite frankly embarressing.

I cant deny that because it did, my natural instinct was to dimiss it. I hold my hands up to that but I make no apology for it. Just the comment about Anton Ferdinand lost it any possible credibility. And I think that anyone who thinks that Keegan really suggested going to for top level players is just plain daft. KK is a dreamer but not that much Also, it was obviously based on an anti-KK bias as it appeared in a thread about a best possible scenario. The pops at KK just get to me. Its actually refreshing to hear some level headed loyalty to Keegan rather than the usual blind faithed messiah shit im used to hearing. I really do repsect what Keegan has done for the club but im definitely in the group that believe that Keegan has played a substantial part in all this, as my edit above says, we targeted Modric a player who had raised interest with some of Europes top clubs and ended up with a utility player from nearly relegated premierhsip team. Its not actually that inconcievable.

Sounds about right. Would that be because KK would have been proved to be the problem all along ? I love the possible idea that Keegan had a list of players from Champions League teams....... and Anton Ferdinand Do you not like it because it paints Kegan in an unfavourable light? Fancy targetting Luka Modric and ending up with Danny Guthrie....

Dont think it is to be honest.

Sounds about right.

Potential relegation if he does shit though.

Im gonna get slated for this, but i dont think he'd be a great club manager. I think his stature resonates alot with the croatian players (who happen to be the most gifted set of croats we've seen for about 10-12 years) and they respond well to that passion and authority. I'd rather have Shearer as nufc manager than Bilic for the exact same reasons that Bilic is a success for Croatia. (I still dont think Shearer will be a great club manager) tin hat time.

He might not of practised a back 3 in training. I personally dont there can be too many complaints about the subs yesterday. he brought on 2 attacking players, we came from behind and both of the players had inputs and we let ourselves down due to silly defending.