fredbob

very true. the debatable points are.1).if he agreed to that structure in the first place..2) if those above him felt the need to step in for other reasons. 3) Why was it the very last day of the window that he decided the job was "unteneable" when theres evidence to suggest he knew the way things worked earlier in the window? Do you think we'd be better off if he'd left in July or August? Do you think we'd have signed up all the world class players Keegan was blocking because he'd never heard of them? I'm sure they'd have been rushing to join a club up for sale and without a permanent manager. I think we would of been better off had he left when his principle had first been crossed. Oppurtunity to get a new manager, oppurtunity to appease the fickle fans who would no doub protested. Who knows? The 3 points still stand and still remained unanswered, the first 2 points especially. Why would we have got a new permanent manager if he'd left in July or August, but not when he left in September? If he'd left while the transfer window was open, we'd have struggled to get in even the few players we did, and there's every chance players like Owen or Martins would have followed Keegan out the door too. Would we of been sold quicker if the new owner knew they had a window to work in? It works both ways. And then the same might have happened as last year due to another 'strategic review,' all ifs and buts at the moment like. Precisely, which leaves the 3 points still unanswered.

very true. the debatable points are.1).if he agreed to that structure in the first place..2) if those above him felt the need to step in for other reasons. 3) Why was it the very last day of the window that he decided the job was "unteneable" when theres evidence to suggest he knew the way things worked earlier in the window? Do you think we'd be better off if he'd left in July or August? Do you think we'd have signed up all the world class players Keegan was blocking because he'd never heard of them? I'm sure they'd have been rushing to join a club up for sale and without a permanent manager. I think we would of been better off had he left when his principle had first been crossed. Oppurtunity to get a new manager, oppurtunity to appease the fickle fans who would no doub protested. Who knows? The 3 points still stand and still remained unanswered, the first 2 points especially. Why would we have got a new permanent manager if he'd left in July or August, but not when he left in September? If he'd left while the transfer window was open, we'd have struggled to get in even the few players we did, and there's every chance players like Owen or Martins would have followed Keegan out the door too. Would we of been sold quicker if the new owner knew they had a window to work in? It works both ways.

very true. the debatable points are.1).if he agreed to that structure in the first place..2) if those above him felt the need to step in for other reasons. 3) Why was it the very last day of the window that he decided the job was "unteneable" when theres evidence to suggest he knew the way things worked earlier in the window? The goal posts were changed though, as has been confirmed by the conflicting club statements. Which leads back to point 2). Still doesnt really answer why it was only the last day that he realised and chose to act then. I'm guessing the Milner fiasco was the straw that broke the camel's back Its been reported that there was a replacement lined up, and i also saw a conference after Milner was sold and there was absolutely no sign that Keegan was unhappy with the sale, in fact alot of people on here thought he was beeming. Maybe he learnt to hide his emotions after all.... Another thing is that it was genereally agreed that £12m was far too much to turn down. Something which Keegan alledgey agreed with - all supposition though so your point still stands maybe you;re right.

very true. the debatable points are.1).if he agreed to that structure in the first place..2) if those above him felt the need to step in for other reasons. 3) Why was it the very last day of the window that he decided the job was "unteneable" when theres evidence to suggest he knew the way things worked earlier in the window? Do you think we'd be better off if he'd left in July or August? Do you think we'd have signed up all the world class players Keegan was blocking because he'd never heard of them? I'm sure they'd have been rushing to join a club up for sale and without a permanent manager. I think we would of been better off had he left when his principle had first been crossed. Oppurtunity to get a new manager, oppurtunity to appease the fickle fans who would no doub protested. Who knows? The 3 points still stand and still remained unanswered, the first 2 points especially.

very true. the debatable points are.1).if he agreed to that structure in the first place..2) if those above him felt the need to step in for other reasons. 3) Why was it the very last day of the window that he decided the job was "unteneable" when theres evidence to suggest he knew the way things worked earlier in the window? The goal posts were changed though, as has been confirmed by the conflicting club statements. Which leads back to point 2). Still doesnt really answer why it was only the last day that he realised and chose to act then.

Come on man, you dont really beleive that do you? I'd put what happened all down to the teams response to no longer playing under the souness regime. We see it happen all the time, Spurs will go on a similar run now... For what its worth, i agree with the rest of your post re: his character. Though he's not the man for the job for me.

What dogged determination was in a Souness NUFC team? We tended to get done doggy style buts all i can think of. He tried to build a determined team full of grafters who would play "proper football". Failed, but tried. Its clear that Shearer backed him all the way, whilst not supporting SBR's decisions with Bellamy etc.

very true. the debatable points are.1).if he agreed to that structure in the first place..2) if those above him felt the need to step in for other reasons. 3) Why was it the very last day of the window that he decided the job was "unteneable" when theres evidence to suggest he knew the way things worked earlier in the window?

Nah, definitely wouldntwant him here, not yet anyway. This is such a big appointment, it needs to be right and for me its gotta be someone who's gonnna recognise the defincies with certain players in our squad, and put any sort of favouritsm aside. Shearer strikes me as someone who would put personalities ahead of actual ability. I dont think he'd build a technically proficient squad like SBR, but one full of strong personalites with dogged determination like Souness. On the plus side, i imagine if he did a crap job and knew it he'd quit....

I was all for himgetting the captaincy before he fucked up at Xmas, i hate the type of person he is but i do see the sense in giving him the captianship, in fact i think it would of been a stroke of genius.

How quickly this is forgotten. Theres 2 things that people seem to refuse to answer - what actually went on behind the scenes at this club? And whats the difference with the 'DOF signing players over the managers head with no apprent reason' (not my view of things) or a chairmen 'signing a player over the managers head with no apprent reason'? I'm very confident that we've experinced both sitautions yet one system is derided for this behaviour and the other is lauded as our saviour and the only option.... Milne wasn't really a DOF, he was more of a scout. Sir Bobby was in full control of buying and selling and had no-one but the chairman to report to. If people want to be pedantic, then we won 4 league titles under a DOF (Frank Watt) and numerous FA Cups. Lets not try and rewrite history here. What now? Im not sure that was relevant to my post. All Im saying is that the stick that people are beating the currents system with and deriding it as a complete failure is the same stick that we didnt use to beat the old system when they did the EXACT same thing. i.e undermine the manager... It just seems that people are assuming that the DoF will inevitably interefre and undermine the manager when in actual fact theres no guarantuee that a chairmen wont do the exact same thing. Something we've witnessed before. What are you talking about? The old system didn't undermine the manager, the chairman did which is entirely different as he operated outside of the system Sir Bobby had put in place (himself I might add) and fans gave FS a ton of stick over that, far more than the stick Wise et al received, far more. Had Ashley himself undermined KK and not the set-up HE created no-one would be criticising the DOF setup. Indeed had they themselves not undermined KK this wouldn't even be an issue. You're barking up the wrong tree as people aren't assuming a DOF will inevitably interfere with the manager, not in regards to our own case anyway because it is a fact that Dennis Wise et al actually did undermine the manager hence the criticism. Ok - your probably right, Im not even sure what we're both arguing about now. I think its something to do with our respective definitions of system. Never mind.

How quickly this is forgotten. Theres 2 things that people seem to refuse to answer - what actually went on behind the scenes at this club? And whats the difference with the 'DOF signing players over the managers head with no apprent reason' (not my view of things) or a chairmen 'signing a player over the managers head with no apprent reason'? I'm very confident that we've experinced both sitautions yet one system is derided for this behaviour and the other is lauded as our saviour and the only option.... Milne wasn't really a DOF, he was more of a scout. Sir Bobby was in full control of buying and selling and had no-one but the chairman to report to. If people want to be pedantic, then we won 4 league titles under a DOF (Frank Watt) and numerous FA Cups. Lets not try and rewrite history here. What now? Im not sure that was relevant to my post. All Im saying is that the stick that people are beating the currents system with and deriding it as a complete failure is the same stick that we didnt use to beat the old system when they did the EXACT same thing. i.e undermine the manager... It just seems that people are assuming that the DoF will inevitably interefre and undermine the manager when in actual fact theres no guarantuee that a chairmen wont do the exact same thing. Something we've witnessed before.

Who sold/replaced them? Comolli sold them? Is that what you're saying? Or did the chairmen sell the players? Like chairmen have done throughout football history. In fact unless I'm mistaken, the DOF targeted Arshavin but the chairmen didnt rise to the occasion. So is Spurs current situation still categorically and exclusively the fault of the DoF? Persoanlly i'm not sure it is.

Aye, the fact that they've sold there 2 main strikers and 50 goals seems to be stupidly underplayed and ignored fact, if any team in the premiership sold there 2 most productive strikers they;d be fucked as well, but it wouldnt be indicative of the fact that the system is a failure. Man U go and sell Ronaldo and Rooney they;d be down the league like spurs but no one would say that there system has failed

Serious question, but what has Martins done this season to merit being the one striker with another? Pace?

Spoken to him, have you? Didn't think so. The facts are none of us know exactly what's gone on, so we can't really point the finger with absolute certainty. Given the relative merits of Kevin Keegan and Mike Ashley, I'd be inclined to back the former in a straight choice, but it's just not that simple. there are other people in the past that have been crucified by you and others and you didn't ask him nor did you ask others if they had also asked them. You would look better not moving the goalposts rather than blatantly defend anybody who I disagree with, even when I have facts to back up my own comments. Faced with a choice between believing Keegan and Ashley, I'll take Keegan anytime if its alright by you. This is the worst squad and smallest squad of players we have had since 1992. We are in the s*** for one reason and one reason only, and that is because they owner of the club failed to make the choice to show ambition in keeping with what this club ought to do and is used to seeing, in backing his own appointed manager. why is it a choice ? i believe neither of them. to me the squad is very similar to roeders full season. I'd take this squad over Roeders 10 times out of ten, that was a horrendously bad squad. Craig Moore, Robbie Elliot, Baba, Carr, Parker, Solano at RB, Titus, Shola, Sibierski....i could go on. compare that with our weakest players nowaday, Cacapa, Taylor, Butt, Duff, Nacho (?), Xisco (?).

Spoken to him, have you? Didn't think so. The facts are none of us know exactly what's gone on, so we can't really point the finger with absolute certainty. Given the relative merits of Kevin Keegan and Mike Ashley, I'd be inclined to back the former in a straight choice, but it's just not that simple. there are other people in the past that have been crucified by you and others and you didn't ask him nor did you ask others if they had also asked them. You would look better not moving the goalposts rather than blatantly defend anybody who I disagree with, even when I have facts to back up my own comments. Faced with a choice between believing Keegan and Ashley, I'll take Keegan anytime if its alright by you. This is the worst squad and smallest squad of players we have had since 1992. We are in the s*** for one reason and one reason only, and that is because they owner of the club failed to make the choice to show ambition in keeping with what this club ought to do and is used to seeing, in backing his own appointed manager. Considering thats the crux of your entire argument thats an incredibly turdish and quite frankly ridculous claim. Old age affecting your memory or is it just selective nowadays?

How quickly this is forgotten. Theres 2 things that people seem to refuse to answer - what actually went on behind the scenes at this club? And whats the difference with the 'DOF signing players over the managers head with no apprent reason' (not my view of things) or a chairmen 'signing a player over the managers head with no apprent reason'? I'm very confident that we've experinced both sitautions yet one system is derided for this behaviour and the other is lauded as our saviour and the only option....

What has Keegan had to put up with that SBR didnt? Nobody's blameless in this entire episode, even the fans have fucked up. Its a real shameful episode in NUFC history and as the owner Ashley has to take a big chunk of responsiblty for it. How diferent things would of been had we gone out and made an appointment straight away, i cant see an end to this, especially with JK in charge.

My feeling is that it is very difficult in the PL without clear accountability, the pressure on resources (money and personnel) is so high and unforgiving. In Spain or whatever you might muddle through (most games for the top sides are strolls in the park) and you have time to hone and iron things out...In the PL every tactical or operational blunder seems to be punished very quickly. What do you mean when you say "most games for the top sides are strolls in the park"? Many foreign players have said how only the top 4 clubs in england can play football whereas the same isnt true in other countries and every game is more difficult.

It is just a coincidence. The DOF system wouldn't suddenly turn Joe Kinnear into a tactical genius which is arguably his biggest weakness and thus a big area preventing him from being a really good manager would it whereas it would devalue a manager like Kevin Keegan or Harry Redknapp whose biggest strengths are in spotting talent or wheeling and dealing in the transfer market. I don't think the lack of quality English or British managers is down to there being not so many DOF style setups in our game nor do I believe such systems make our foreign counterparts any better. Both Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez are on record saying the English traditional system is the best and has made them far better managers. As to why it doesn't work in this country, that's a good question. This is true but i suppose i'm delving more into the psyche of an english manager. Is the reason the DOF system not working in England becasue the managers are technically incompentent and too arrogant about there own skill as a manager. English managers are 10 years behind the contintal coutnerpart in my opinion. When the oney dries up, the DOF system will be strife throuought the english game in my opinion. For what its worth Wenger himself said he wanted a DOF, a certain Glen Roeder was touted for the job.

It begs the question why doesnt it work in this country? And is it just a coincidence that as a coutnry we happen to have so many poor english managers? I personally dont think they are mutually exclusive at all.

Keegan did put his needs before the club which is his perogative Im not sure what Keegan endured that SBR didnt.

Aye, it's almost as if some of us are from Newcastle-upon-Tyne. What a stupid f***ing thing to say. What? Now that was a stupid thing to say. Blaming the system, the owners, Kinnear etc is bloody stupid and pointless. They pretty much had their strongest team out and we didn't even come close. I think we would have beaten them easily otherwise. We played alright on the whole and they played well. But hey let's play the blame game all over again! That's so much more fun! I blame Owne for having muscle tissue made out of tissue paper! I blame Freddy Shepherd and John Hall for selling the club to that evil non-Geordie Mike Ashley! I blame Keegan for being a stroppy little man! yada, yada, yada, yada bollox. Two players (Owen, Viduka) from our best team. Sorry, but you can't blame injuries on this one. Jonas got 15 mins because he only just returned, as did Barton. If they are fit enough to play the 90, we win this game easily imo. Beye still isn't quite right either and Martins doesn't look very sharp. How would we win it easily? When they'd both probably be bypassed anyway with the ball being aimed far beyond their reaches. Did you watch the match? Did you see what happened after they both came on? You don't have the first clue what this means to people from this area so why bother offering comment? f***s sake What's your problem? Kaka thinks I'm overreacting. I say that when he's actually seen the Tyne Bridge, he'll have the right to tell me I'm overreacting to a derby defeat. Until then, he should keep his f***ing nose out. you're telling him he shouldnt even bother having an opinion because he's not local? classic. He's not allowed to tell me I'm overreacting, no. Fairly f***ing obvious iyam. mackems.gif Look mate - do you think Keegn would of lost that game? With players he bought? No. Not what i asked. Squirm as much as you like mate - but you know your way off with this one. f***ing disgraceful result, i know but JK is responsible for this one. The quality of the squad is not to blame for this result. Squirm? Of course Keegan would have won this game, like he did last year at a canter. So your point about Wise and the quality of squad is f***ing invalid if Keegan would of got a better result witht he exact same squad. Not rocket science like. Not really. The reason Ashley backed Wise instead of Keegan was because he thought the squad was so good that the manager didn't matter. Not rocket science like. Is that a reason or a wild guess? And what exactly has that got to do with this match?? If the squads the same yet you think you;d get 2 different results with different managers then the only variable here is the manager and therefore the manager is repsonsible for the loss. Rocket science is probably too much for you so how about we move it to "join the dots". Are you dim or something? Ashley is to blame for the squad situation, the manager situation and our first defeat off this lot for 8 years, first away for 28 years. Does that clear things up? mackems.gif Oh my god. that is embarressing logic, so Ashley is responsible for every single result we have this season be it good or bad? Thats borderline idiotic i'm afraid. You admit that another manager would of got a better result with the same squad but still go on to say the squad is the reason we're losing, scratch that, that is idiotic. So, same car, different drivers different results yet the cars and the builders of the car are the reason for the loss. Credit to you for being this passionate though, feel free to let that get in the way of logic. Honestly haven't got a clue what you're gibbering about now. The squad AND the manager both make a difference on the result of a football match. This is not a difficult concept. f*** me - this is impossible. do you even know how you started this debate, by blaming Wise and Asley for the quality of the squad and therefore this loss. Then you go on to say that Keegan would of got a result with the EXACT same squad. So how can you say the quality of the squad was the reason we lost this result. I've even simplified it for you and you still dont get it. Squad A + Keegan = Win (in your eyes) Squad A + JK = Loss The only variable here is the managers so that can be the only thing responsible for the differing results. That is scientific fact you bamp. :lol: I'm going to assume that the people who matter on this forum are able to understand how dim you look. Even if the managers were the only variables (which they're not), Ashley forced Keegan out by backing his slimey mates. So it's his fault. Right? Keegan wouldn't have lost against a dismal lot like these scumbags but even he wouldn't have been able to work miracles with the squad he was offered by Ashley and his chums to make any significant progress. mackems.gif "people who matter on this football forum" I was gonna give up mate, but you're just way too much fun. So if we'd won this match would Ashley of been responsible for this win 'for getting rid of keegan'? Thats pretty much the see-saw logic you're applying there mate. Good one. Cue a reply of "well we didnt win this", missing the point yet again. i cant believe your are going to make Ashley responsible for every single 90 minute result we play from now on in be it win or loss. Not every defeat. Defeat in a Tyne-Wear derby is never acceptable. Not now, not ever. Neither is being second bottom of the Premiership with a quarter of the season gone. As long as you think Ashley's doing a good job though eh? Ah ok, so we have subjective views on who's responsible for for indivdual results. For what its worth you're right about the Tyne-Queer derbies. Ultimately Ashley has to take responsible for the situaion we are in but again we still arent sure what went on so if its all the same I'll leave my supposition at the door and stick to logic.

Aye, it's almost as if some of us are from Newcastle-upon-Tyne. What a stupid f***ing thing to say. What? Now that was a stupid thing to say. Blaming the system, the owners, Kinnear etc is bloody stupid and pointless. They pretty much had their strongest team out and we didn't even come close. I think we would have beaten them easily otherwise. We played alright on the whole and they played well. But hey let's play the blame game all over again! That's so much more fun! I blame Owne for having muscle tissue made out of tissue paper! I blame Freddy Shepherd and John Hall for selling the club to that evil non-Geordie Mike Ashley! I blame Keegan for being a stroppy little man! yada, yada, yada, yada bollox. Two players (Owen, Viduka) from our best team. Sorry, but you can't blame injuries on this one. Jonas got 15 mins because he only just returned, as did Barton. If they are fit enough to play the 90, we win this game easily imo. Beye still isn't quite right either and Martins doesn't look very sharp. How would we win it easily? When they'd both probably be bypassed anyway with the ball being aimed far beyond their reaches. Did you watch the match? Did you see what happened after they both came on? You don't have the first clue what this means to people from this area so why bother offering comment? f***s sake What's your problem? Kaka thinks I'm overreacting. I say that when he's actually seen the Tyne Bridge, he'll have the right to tell me I'm overreacting to a derby defeat. Until then, he should keep his f***ing nose out. you're telling him he shouldnt even bother having an opinion because he's not local? classic. He's not allowed to tell me I'm overreacting, no. Fairly f***ing obvious iyam. mackems.gif Look mate - do you think Keegn would of lost that game? With players he bought? No. Not what i asked. Squirm as much as you like mate - but you know your way off with this one. f***ing disgraceful result, i know but JK is responsible for this one. The quality of the squad is not to blame for this result. Squirm? Of course Keegan would have won this game, like he did last year at a canter. So your point about Wise and the quality of squad is f***ing invalid if Keegan would of got a better result witht he exact same squad. Not rocket science like. Not really. The reason Ashley backed Wise instead of Keegan was because he thought the squad was so good that the manager didn't matter. Not rocket science like. Is that a reason or a wild guess? And what exactly has that got to do with this match?? If the squads the same yet you think you;d get 2 different results with different managers then the only variable here is the manager and therefore the manager is repsonsible for the loss. Rocket science is probably too much for you so how about we move it to "join the dots". Are you dim or something? Ashley is to blame for the squad situation, the manager situation and our first defeat off this lot for 8 years, first away for 28 years. Does that clear things up? mackems.gif Oh my god. that is embarressing logic, so Ashley is responsible for every single result we have this season be it good or bad? Thats borderline idiotic i'm afraid. You admit that another manager would of got a better result with the same squad but still go on to say the squad is the reason we're losing, scratch that, that is idiotic. So, same car, different drivers different results yet the cars and the builders of the car are the reason for the loss. Credit to you for being this passionate though, feel free to let that get in the way of logic. Honestly haven't got a clue what you're gibbering about now. The squad AND the manager both make a difference on the result of a football match. This is not a difficult concept. f*** me - this is impossible. do you even know how you started this debate, by blaming Wise and Asley for the quality of the squad and therefore this loss. Then you go on to say that Keegan would of got a result with the EXACT same squad. So how can you say the quality of the squad was the reason we lost this result. I've even simplified it for you and you still dont get it. Squad A + Keegan = Win (in your eyes) Squad A + JK = Loss The only variable here is the managers so that can be the only thing responsible for the differing results. That is scientific fact you bamp. :lol: I'm going to assume that the people who matter on this forum are able to understand how dim you look. Even if the managers were the only variables (which they're not), Ashley forced Keegan out by backing his slimey mates. So it's his fault. Right? Keegan wouldn't have lost against a dismal lot like these scumbags but even he wouldn't have been able to work miracles with the squad he was offered by Ashley and his chums to make any significant progress. mackems.gif "people who matter on this football forum" I was gonna give up mate, but you're just way too much fun. So if we'd won this match would Ashley of been responsible for this win 'for getting rid of keegan'? Thats pretty much the see-saw logic you're applying there mate. Good one. Cue a reply of "well we didnt win this", missing the point yet again. i cant believe your are going to make Ashley responsible for every single 90 minute result we play from now on in be it win or loss.