leffe186

You’re “begging the question”. You’re saying that we haven’t ever been constrained by FFP because we haven’t tried to spend more than we take in as revenue. Levy decided around 2004 that we would choose not to spend more than we take in as revenue, partly as financial prudence, maybe partly because he anticipated regulation. We constrained ourselves, and then when FFP came in we operated under its constraints. Contrast that with all the clubs who were run at a loss at the time, and Abramovich who couldn’t give the slightest shit about loss and just spent whatever he could to make Chelsea the best. We’ve always been looking to spend the kind of sums needed to push us close, just within the scope of our revenue - which meant looking long-term (tight wage control, looking to redevelop the stadium, buying young cheap players to develop). Again, if people want the Abramovich style to be the norm then OK, it’s just not what I want.

It’s the Metro On further inspection, it’s based on a “report” - a tweet from a Chelsea guy called Nathan Gissing who might write for Di Marzio but who definitely writes for Chelsea. So it’s par for the course.

Sorry, I think I didn’t understand what you were getting at in the first post. You said that we were “allowed” to spend way more than anyone outside the Top six, and it has been like that for a while. I thought you were asking why? I guess your point was that we’ve effectively been part of the cartel throughout? FFP came in from UEFA in 2009 IIRC. Too late to affect Man City and Chelsea’s sprees and didn’t really affect us directly because Levy had been keeping tight control of our spending anyway since 2004. We didn’t have to suddenly deal with a ceiling imposed by FFP because we’d already been working under that ceiling for years. It’s a very different landscape now, but the ceiling isn’t all that different to the one Levy imposed in 2003-4. Our revenue in 6th was 73% of yours in 5th. In 2022, West Ham’s revenue in 7th was 69% of Arsenal’s in 6th, which was 83% of ours in 5th. The absolute numbers are significantly greater but the relative numbers aren’t all that far off. Your revenue in 2023 will be absolutely light years ahead of 2022. The great tragedy from your POV obviously was that Ashley came along in 2007. Even before Ashley we had overtaken you in the league (we’d finished 9th, 5th and 5th to your 14th, 7th and 13th), and we had overtaken your revenue primarily due to that. Ashley did his thing, and then UEFA brought in FFP a couple of years later. The worst possible timing for you. The reason the ceiling looks so absurd to you now is that you’ve been bought by PIF and in theory have nearly unlimited money at your disposal…and you’ve been mismanaged for years. Most pertinently, for the last five years. That will change. Somebody posted earlier that “We just want to get rid of the dross players we were saddled with due to the Ashley era and build a squad that’s fit to challenge the upper end of the table”. Well I mean, you’ve pretty much done that already, injuries and fixture demands notwithstanding. I think that you’ll make progress every year. Ashley has fucked you, but every year without him is a year with a ton more revenue available to address FFP/F&S/whatever. If you disagree and want to fuck FFP off now then that’s understandable,

It’s massively not perfect, and definitely needs debate and reform. We are allowed to spend more partly because our income has increased. The main reason we can finally start spending serious money is the new stadium. One other reason is that we gradually got better and more consistent and had regular CL for a long time. One underlying reason is that we were famously careful as fuck not to overspend by keeping the wage bill down for years and years relative to the top sides and our revenue. Regular sales helped too.

All of those have been effectively bought by someone at one point or another, tbf. Even location (hello Arsenal) Yeah I totally agree that parity is essentially impossible. (I’m also happy to blame Thatcher partly for this btw). The NFL system could not be implemented here. On Levy - sure he thought it would be better to be part of that cartel. I’m sure every owner does. Even Ashley, although he couldn’t be fucked and/or wasn’t competent enough to actually try. Levy was lucky enough and brilliant enough to do it within the “rules”. They were self-imposed at first and then I’m sure he worked very hard to make sure those rules were imposed on everyone else. That would definitely have been self-preservation.

Absolutely. And yet I nearly walked away. That’s reinforcing my point.

Of course it’s tainted by my club’s position, but by my club’s position over the last 20 years, not just now. As I explained at self-righteous length If you think I’m arguing that we should keep F&S because we’re now really good and fuck everyone outside the cartel, then you’re very wrong. I just…really hated what happened to Chelsea and Man City. That’s really all. I didn’t want it to happen then and I don’t want it to happen now. I don’t know how old you are. I’m 50 and have been going to football since we were in the second division (don’t remember much about that since I was 4). I’ve seen us be shit-good-great-good-mediocre-good. I’d love us to be good forever and win everything, sure. And it’s impossible for me to say definitively how I’d react in your position. But I’m old enough and ugly enough to make a decent guess.

No, I nearly walked away because it felt really wrong to me: that the game had crossed a line with Abramovich and his spending. We had been at a disadvantage relative to the top three or four for years. Did you see us in the 90s? If you were cool with Abramovich then fair enough. I hated it. Yeah, F&S has definitely evolved to be a way of preserving the status quo - the cartel. That’s a problem. We’ve made ourselves part of that problem. I agree with you that we were never in a position to really compete. Why do you think that is?

Don’t get me wrong, I realize lots of Newcastle fans will agree. Some Man City and Chelsea fans agreed, though they have long since disappeared from the scene or assimilated. I just got a bit wound up by the specific rhetoric in that post I think. Edit: Actually I very much do think that some people want carte blanche because I think some have said so elsewhere in this forum. Born of frustration no doubt, but I think it’s there.

Yeah, just used those to illustrate my point that FFP is at least having some impact on the cartel clubs.

Btw I’m genuinely sorry that I’m intruding on this, and I’m sure I’m going to get pelters and fair enough. Just wanted to vent a bit

Really? Differently frustrating, certainly. I thought the Ashley regime was completely disastrous and frustrating because we all knew the potential, and so many years were wasted. Now imagine how frustrating it is to come up against this ceiling 15 years ago after seeing two teams get bought by oil money and having untold millions of it spunked on them, overnight creating a Big 4 and then a Big 5. Then you knuckle down and grind your way through that ceiling inexorably over 15-20 years. Then another team gets bought by oil money and you see their fans saying they’ve had enough of it after one-and-a-half seasons. I get it. It’s annoying that you can’t just throw money at it, like Chelsea and Man City did. It’s annoying Man U and Arsenal right now that they can’t just throw money at their problems too. For argument’s sake, Arsenal would love to give you £100M for Isak. Man U would love to give you £100M for Bruno Guimaraes. They’re not allowed to. I know this isn’t the place for this argument right now - feelings are high, and I’m going to get an unsympathetic response. P&S is obviously flawed, but I don’t think it’s completely without merit. It’s just hard to see you say it “needs to go in the next couple of years or I’m checking out”, and I hope you understand why. I nearly walked away from football when Abramovich came in, not because we couldn’t spend anything we liked on players but because he was a Russian oligarch and he could and did, and it all felt wrong to me. I nearly threw my toys out of the pram because a rival team did that. You’re about to throw your toys out of the pram because you can’t. I hope you can see how that’s a little frustrating to hear.

Can’t remember if there’s a MOTD or media thread but wanted to give some praise. Just watching MOTD2 now with Ian Wright and Fara Williams and their post-match analysis was the best I can remember. Excellent choice of topics, well-illustrated with clips and well-argued, and concise. Maybe I don’t pay much attention to it usually but I was impressed.

It’s so frustrating, and it happens every time. They bring in a new law or approach to address a real problem, have a few weeks enforcing it (by and large) then it just goes away. A combination of a reluctance to punish bigger clubs, many clubs’ persistence and imagination in subverting the change and certain referees simply not enforcing it properly.

Keeper takes a full minute over the goal kick

Cape Verde just running round kicking people now

and all his mates too. Top shithousing tbh.

One of the worst free kicks I’ve seen there from Cape Verde.

1-1. Would love to see a Ghana match in the flesh tbh. Had a couple of great nights in a Ghanaian pub in Tottenham

Anyone else watching the AFCON? Hughton’s Ghana in a bit of bother. Had heard from The Athletic that Bebé was playing for Cape Verde now but it’s still a bit weird to see him out there.

Where is this? First I’ve heard of it

There’s only one of us who wants that

If we’re trading incidents then I think we all know how the story ends.

I make it €272M since the start of last summer. Unless you mean the summer before. That adds €160M. €432M. Then convert to pounds. £371M. Then subtract the sales of €154M if you like. It’s a lot, definitely. Thank you Levy for getting us through that last 20 years to this point. I think Ange is great. If you listen to people who call him a miracle worker, then I suggest you listen to different people.

Gonna need a citation on that one. Let me go work it out.