Stuy_O

The West Brom game keeps getting mentioned, but a) it wasn't particularly typical of our performances last season and b) we didn't exactly look like Barca either. It was a game where things clicked for us, as will happen for every side now and then. For the most part, our football wasn't that great, and sometimes the margin between success and failure can be very small. This season a few things have gone wrong - some of our newer players are now familiar to the opposition, Ba has been discontented, Cisse has lost form, we've had more injuries - and that's been enough to take us from the European places to near the relegation zone. In the Premiership, a lot of teams are of a fairly even standard, and a small decline can take you down quite a few places. I don't think Pardew is suddenly an incompetent manager who has no idea of tactics. I do think, however, that the club was hoodwinked by our 5th place finish into thinking that some of our players were better than they really were. If, as seems likely, we got some generous offers based on their inflated reputations, we should have taken advantage of opportunities to trade up. All this drama surrounding tactics is understandable to a point but switching to 4-3-3 is by no means just gonna sort all our problems out. It will give Cisse a more comfortable role, but will the service be any better? It might bring the best out of HBA but will the passing from the rest of the team improve? It means zip what system we apply if we can't get the essentials right. Get back to looking like a side, work hard, and give the basics prioritisation. I'm sure then we'll start to see an improvement.

Being a football manager must be brilliant, we can just blame the players for everything and the manager has absolutley no responsibility for team performance. Why are the players being allowed to do what the hell they want? If they are ignoring him, why isn't he, the manager, doing something about it? Being a football player must be brilliant, we can just blame the manager for everything and the players have absolutely no responsibility for team performance. Pardew, obviously has to take some of the blame and if the team were playing well, but were losing because of his ridiculous decisions then he would have to take the majority of it, but they're not they're playing like a bunch of f***ing clowns and that's why we're losing games. I can't think of one game where the majority of the team have played well, can you? People always absolve the players from blame and never the manager, but the reality is it's down to both of them to a greater or lesser extent. The only debate is about the balance of blame/praise and in my view that has to come down on the side of the players, the vast majority of whom aren't playing anything like as well as they did last season and until at least some of them are it's pretty much impossible to judge Pardew's performance. People seem to think that he's telling the likes of Cisse to be offside every single time, etc, and as always people are looking for a scapegoat and the anti-Pardew bandwagon is well and truly rolling. The ironic thing is that most of the people jumping on to it are the same people who were singing his praises the most last season. Pretty much my slant on this at the moment. Both are letting themselves down badly.

Fair do's, but I'm still not having that it's entirely down to tactics that they are playing this terribly. I actually don't have a clue. As a collective unit they are freezing under the pressure, pressure which was perhaps inevitable given the squad size and increase in games. They need to stand up and show their true colours, everyone, and start looking like a team again. People can harp on all day about tactics, but if they can't even do the minimum required then its a pointless discussion.

Also the vast majority of the clubs in the league at least showed some purpose in the market this summer, we went backwards. Sends out the wrong messages to the players in my view.

It's a subtle thing but we might have underestimated the effect on the players of the poor transfer window and what that meant to the big picture ie their idea of what the project was. Things were quite fresh last year Cisse scoring at will Ba playing out left when needed...Hba coming into his own (one of the most gifted players in the league), Perch developing and also the momentum (with no expectations and no pressure). I imagine for the players and this is a wild guess, their personal ambitions were on hold or set aside as they were enjoying winning games and coming close to a CL spot...Even the more direct style of play seemed to make sense and they probably imagined it would change over time (again just what I imagine was going on - could be wrong). Then wham a terrible transfer window and no proper quota of reinforcements for the next climb the next level of the mountain and worse an extra competition as well. Think the pre-season looked poorly organised (Pards said something like "It will help the admin get practice at booking flights)..with too much traveling and as HTT said earlier no solid blocs of preperation time or drills. With the internationla players arriving a bit tired and having even more time off. Think the whole things could have gone a lot better. Why not go to a purpose built football camp (like German teams do) where there is time and recreation and things can get honed and players can get support of all kind? For someone like Pardew who sells himself on being 'a new kind of manager all forensics and dossiers' it looked like amateur hour. All these subtle little things can work through to the players and I firmly believe their minds weren't in the right place (and still aren't) at the start of the season. Too much backstory unresolved like cheap sci-fi. I think this can't be underestimated, yet some seem to dismiss it as having an effect. Strength in depth is a cliche perhaps but its one of the truest ones out there. Its runs like this where its required, when the current XI has lost its edge. What you say is true, but I think its more a case of the current staff and players feeling sorry for themselves. I don't think Pardew has lost the players, they both just seem pretty stuck in finding a solution. Also and I think this is crucial, is that this is the first time a lot of these players and the manager has had significant pressure on them at this club. Its quite worrying how they have dealt with it so far.

Have you been on a desert island? We're playing 2 in the middle against 3 more often than not and because of it we're not controlling games. We're losing possession because our 2 are being bypassed by the 3 opposition players. Do the players decide to go with 2 in the middle? If the answer is yes then fair enough it's the players to blame. We hoof the ball from back to front more than any other team in the league, noises from within the club suggest that the players are being told to play that way. Is that the fault of the players? We've got 2 forwards who don't look to be compatible and rarely if ever have done so. If the players are deciding to play 2 incompatible forwards then I will agree with you. We spend 4 out of 5 days working on defence then spend another day on the forward play, if that is down to the players then yes, they are to blame. We play 2 different teams a week when we play in Europe and surprisingly Pardew claims he doesn’t have enough time to prepare. Is it the fault of the players that we play 2 different teams? We concentrate on stopping the opposition and that means we have to look at each team before playing them and have little time to do so. It would be better to concentrate on what we do rather than the opposition. Is that the fault of the players? Our season has been stop-start and we play as if we’re playing with 11 players who have never met, they probably only meet socially anyway because we seem to look at areas of the team in isolation. Is that the fault of the players? If it was 1 of 2 players playing below an expected level then I would tend to point the finger at them. When it’s a large part of the team I tend to look in different areas for the reason. Even if I'm wrong and the players are playing a greater part in our poor season, whose job is it to sort it out? I will be managing people at work tomorrow just like I have every working day for years and if they fail to perform I’ll not get away with claiming that it’s down to the people who work for me. I’ll not need telling who is responsible because I’ll know it’s me for failing to manage them. Football management is no different in that respect, if he can't manage the players and get the best out of the team then he shouldn't be managing. Management is p*ss easy when things are going well, when the s*** hits the fan you'll usually be able to seperate the good from the bad, we'll now see which of those Pardew is. Along with HTT's earlier post, this is one of the posts of the thread. What has changed then over a close season? He was getting the absolute maximum out of some average players last season, so that suggests to me his man management isn't to bad. Players like Perch and Ryan Taylor, they were complete no hopers before Pardew landed, and he's aided them in reviving their careers. He blended in Davide Santon very well and he's arguably to thank for the maturity Hatem Ben Arfa has shown since getting a regular game. What has suddenly happened in the space of 6 months for them to be playing so utterly crap? If the players are that repulsed by the methods apparently being asked of them then they should say something, and work as a unit to find different solutions. Not just throw the entire blame at the manager. No one is exempt from blame. His big players are all horribly out of form, and the good fortune has deserted them. I personally wont have that its purely down to tactics. Sometimes it's about showing balls and the majority of these players have shown zip in the last month or so. Thats how they got a lot of results last year, through sheer bloody hard work.

We also lack leadership on the pitch aswell when our captain aint playing. Badly.

Absolute tosh! Even with a depleted squad the teams we put out against Swansea, West Ham and Southampton were far superior player-for-player. We had home advantage in two of the three games and remember, the opposition didn't scrape lucky wins, they played us off the park. To further strengthen my argument, take a look at the Maritimo game - we put all of our big guns out and got outplayed by a small-time Portuguese team. I just think calls for his head are a bit knee-jerk in the circumstances. Even the loss of Colo, HBA and Cabaye is bound to play a part. That's a 3rd of the 1st team. I don't think there's a glut of great managers who'd be prepared to take over and work under Ashleys restraints either. Let's weather the storm until we get our 1st X1 back and hopefully he's given the chance to reinforce in Jan'. A bit of stability at the club is what's needed i think. We have a thin squad cause Pardew didn't have the balls or the self-esteem or the honesty to fight for a bigger squad. Comprende? Bullshit. What can he possibly do to get Ashley and Llambias to spend more money? Threaten to walk? Doubt that would work. It patently obvious Pardew and Carr suggest names then the rest is completely out of their hands. You can blame Pardew for the performances yes, but to blame him for our failings in the transfer market is plain wrong imo.

Its our lack of attacking verve that is putting more pressure on our defenders imo. They are under more pressure to keep a clean sheet and inevitably they cant. Of course being more organised is a platform, but we look toothless in attack, testing an awful keeper just twice isn't good enough. If its possible more focus on defensive shape will make us even more inept. Its hardly like we're going gung ho and leaving the defenders exposed either. Getting lost in both Pardew threads here, had to move this.

He's one of the few that looks up for the fight at the mo.

Well its either that what you say, or the players are so low on confidence and are scared to express themselves on the field. I'm still struggling to get my head round the fact that staff instructions are making us THIS rubbish. If so then we're in a bit of bother.

I agree, was a baffling choice and the manager is to blame for that. Still another 10 players out there though. Pardew can't bring them all off.

Encouraging that he could sense what was going on and was alone in trying to rectify it. Had an element of 'scruff of the neck' about it. Crazy for Pardew to bring him off when Jonas was totally out the game.

But we know from watching us last season (and this) that Pardew teams aren't about movement, they're about staying in position (ie the opposite of moving) keeping it tight and hoping for a front man to produce a bit of magic. We've seen it with our own eyes and we've heard it from coaching staff and players as well, you shouldn't blame the players for following the managers instructions. I don't mean deviating from position, free roles etc. I'm talking about pockets of space between opponents that all players look for and get into before getting the ball. 4 or 5 yards. Not exactly going against the managers words that, its just natural. The only players doing this yesterday were Santon and Anita. Everyone else just stood still.

It's a terrible combination of elements going on. The fact we didn't strengthen in the summer gave the impression that the club thinks it could tick along in similar fashion to last season, and while they may have been irked to begin with, the mentality has rubbed off on the players, their, absolutely zip competition for places. Its not solely to blame of course, but a bigger squad is used for runs like this, as you can try something fresh and different and drop players out of form. Not really an option for us currently. Players playing poorly and shot on confidence are starting every game. Pardew's tactics are questionable, but the players are making the basics look impossible. Stuff like movement, we're so static at the moment yet their is space to run into quite often, yet the players seem incapable of doing it. I cant for the life of me think Pardew is advising them this. They are professional footballers, and in my view you can only blame so much on tactics and formations if players are refusing to get the absolute fundamentals right.

Wise

If that's the case, I wonder when it happened. How early was it that he came out with the comment about one or two having their heads turned during the summer ? Was it pre-season ? Think these days players have to believe in the 'whole project', especially good players who can easily move to other clubs. The window was a very negative signal to the players imo as well as them probably beginning to see through what Pards has been selling them to this point. No doubt in my mind one or two were dissapointed they didn't get a move in the summer. Two things largely out of the managers control that though. If the players are playing this badly because they didn't move away in the summer then that's f***ing pathetic. However I can go with the fact they may feel aggrieved by our (or lack off) ambition in the transfer window. Sent out all the wrong signals.

Mixture of both for me. I do think Pardew can be tactically naive but sometimes players need to step up on the field. They don't believe it it any more. Remember when we scored a goal last year? The whole team came together and it was a proper 'team' celebration. We played for each other and chased, supported and encouraged each other for 90 mins a game. It was fantastic to see how close the players were and how united the whole team was on the park. I've seen none of that this season. The players have seen through him and they know he's a bullshitter. He's lost them. If thats the case, then it wouldn't hurt for them to try something different on the field. They are grown ups, not kids playing 5-a-side.

Mixture of both for me. I do think Pardew can be tactically naive but sometimes players need to step up on the field.

http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/seor-gif-when-bread-cat-learns-about-your-gluten-intolerance.gif that is quality

Judging by that interview he's expecting defeat midweek, that will rub off on his players aswell. I do agree with the fans backing though. Pretty much our only option.

He deserves the chance to get us out this mess for me. Obviously things have to improve though and improve very fast.

That's entirely the point though with that starting XI, is that that's basically it. What have we got to bring on that can shift the balance of a game? We had a tiny squad to begin with, and this season injuries and bans have meant a real lack of consistency with starting line ups. Now its not fully to blame, no one is saying that, but it has not helped in the slightest and to say it hasn't had an effect is a bit inaccurate imo. I'm not saying injuries aren't a problem but the clear problems with the way we play have been evident all season, and most of last season too. It's only now Ben Arfa is injured that people are moaning about injuries, and he's played every game so far that we've been awful in - most of the players who've been injured, Cabaye, Jonas, Cisse, have been getting slagged off left, right and centre on here and I've seen calls to drop all of them! I think its fair to say the two have coincided to terrible affect. I'd have had far more confidence to get out this rot with our key players available though, but thats obvious of course.

That's entirely the point though with that starting XI, is that that's basically it. What have we got to bring on that can shift the balance of a game? We had a tiny squad to begin with, and this season injuries and bans have meant a real lack of consistency with starting line ups. Now its not fully to blame, no one is saying that, but it has not helped in the slightest and to say it hasn't had an effect is a bit inaccurate imo.

Its an obscene idea tbh, presume these folk want Kinnear back.