Shadow Puppets

Oh, did he? I try to avoid the post match stuff after a poor performance. 😂

Livramento is a doubt for this, just FYI. He has been carrying a bit of a knock for a few weeks, only really on the bench last night in case of emergency.

It’s a clear a penalty as you’re likely to see. Blatant. However, our performance didn’t deserve us getting back into the game so I’m not that arsed.

I mean he goes down a bit easy but it’s as blatant a penalty as you’ll see. Outrageous.

I think under the circumstances, the crazy amount of injuries, the short turnaround between games etc… that performance was pretty good. With some better finishing we should have been 2 or 3 up before Dummett’s brain fart. We pretty much controlled the game in it’s entirety, barring about 5 mins in the second half, and our attacking play was pretty excellent at times, albeit with poor finishing. Find it really hard to be angry with anyone tonight, other than Dummett of course.

Nothing new today… Just a reiteration of everything we know / everything I was told before.

I’ll try to find out a few more details on this today (as well as the Tonali stuff)

1) yes the scans DID show something wrong to varying degrees. Correct. 2) the club were happy for him to have surgery… no idea… probably I guess they would have been… but I know for a fact that Sven, the club and the specialists decided on the course of action together, based on all the available info. 3) they ALL thought he could rest it (not just him). 4) as far as I’m aware the club’s injury situation didn’t play a factor in him being “rushed back” or anything. As far as I’ve been told his scans at the point he started playing again we’re perfectly fine.

Er, no... that's not what he's saying at all. Unless of course your agenda only allows you to hear what you want to hear. These things align... The injury in the Brentford game was considered very minor... a little bit of swelling and then absolutely fine. Sven felt perfectly fine, so there was no suspicion that anything was in any way seriously wrong. That changed in the Sheff Utd game. He saw 3 specialists. There was some level of disagreement over the severity, but ALL AGREED that rest was a perfectly acceptable course of action. When Sven started playing again in January, his scans were considered perfectly fine and he was cleared to play (by ALL parties). The only difference between what Downie is saying and what I've been told is that his ongoing scans have been perfectly fine with no need for concern. I'm literally 100% sure of that, and I know with 100% conviction that Downie is incorrect on that one. Yes, that's true... Sven and the club made the decision based on every specialist's recommendations and multiple ongoing scans. Depends on how you define "fully recovered". It takes months of playing to feel, in your own body, "fully recovered" from any relatively complex injury, even once you're cleared to play. With every complex injury, and this one is no different, you have regular ongoing scans to make sure that everything is holding up as it should. His latest scan, as of just before the Wolves game, was perfectly fine (the word I was told was "clear") and the specialists cleared him to continue playing. I know this to be 100% true... I literally have ZERO doubts.

Most of this aligns with everything I've been told... although I would dispute his assertion (reasons below) that he's been actively playing with a "partial tear". As I've said previously, he's had regular scans over the last few months to make sure that he's fine and able to keep playing (the last one being just before the Wolves game), and every one of them has been reassuring and in the words I was told... "clear". Now, I obviously haven't seen the scans and I'm not a doctor, but I'd be highly surprised if "clear" equals "partial tear"... which leads me to believe that that part is incorrect from Downie.

Right… just to lay out the facts as I know them (those of you who know me know who my sources are). Had this confirmed tonight… 1) his initial injury in the Brentford game appeared minor at the time. There was never an indication, at all, that there was anything seriously wrong until the Sheff Utd game. That is the first time anyone became aware that there may be a deeper problem. 2) he saw 3 specialists, one in the UK and two in the Netherlands. ALL of them agreed that a period of rest and rehabilitation should prevent the need for surgery, though one of them was apparently less convinced than the others, but still it was an acceptable course of action to everyone. 3) he has had regular scans (I think we’re talking every month, but I might be wrong), to monitor the situation, and every one of them has been fine… no issues with him playing. The last one was 3 weeks ago, just prior to the Wolves game, that showed that he was absolutely fine to play. 4) the decision was not “left up to the player”… it has been an ongoing joint decision between the club, the specialists and Sven. Seems like everyone has been on the same page. 5) to reiterate, Sven has physically felt absolutely fine for months. I think, personally, reading between the lines, that he has struggled more mentally with trusting his body, which had led to some mistakes and a bit of a loss of confidence. Lastly, I’m trying to get confirmation of what exactly the injury is, and whether it’s the same as / a continuation of previous, or whether it’s due to a weakness in the area or something. Will report back if / when I hear anything. Now, I’d really love it if we, as a forum/fanbase, could collectively stop loosing our shit over things we know nothing about. Feels like there’s a real appetite to pin blame on managers / players / staff / owners for everything at the moment (to suit your own agenda) when in many cases there is no blame to pin. Sometimes, people make decisions based on the best available information, and annoyingly sometimes those decisions turn out, in hindsight, to be wrong. It doesn’t mean that someone is shit at their job, needs sacking, or deserves public shaming… sometimes it just means that none of this is a perfect exact science.

They’ve had a lot more than 2 people look at it, mate. Honestly, just stop it… you’ll give yourself a heart attack with all this negativity. He told me that he saw specialists in the UK and Netherlands that both confirmed it was not necessary to get surgery, and the scan he had a few weeks ago showed no signs at all of damage.

Yes… pretty much all of that is correct. The only thing I don’t agree with is that I think, right now, there’s no need to be playing Longstaff when Miley is (presumably) fit on the bench.

Thankfully I steer well clear.

I think it’s absolutely possible that they’re related injuries…of course it is. What I’m saying is, factually, the club have been working on the advice of 3rd party specialists and Sven and the club had felt very confident that surgery wasn’t required based on the specialists advice. Whoever you choose to blame out of all of that is up to you.

Even if it is a re-occurrence (I've asked, haven't heard back yet), it still doesn't mean it's our medical department's fault. Multiple specialists had all signed him off.

I have news for you mate... 90% of players in the premier league right now are playing with some kind of injury... some ailment. Some worse than others. Practically nobody is 100% fit. That's the nature of professional sport.

I can address a few of those with facts if you like... - Barnes was out for an additional month, not because of a medical issue or something that the club had done (those pesky rubbish medical staff eh), but because the injury simply hadn't healed as fast as they initially thought it would. - Anderson, same. I spoke to his Dad recently who just said it was a really frustrating time... took ages to heal. Not sure what you want our medical staff to do about that. - Murphy was going to need surgery either way... it was just a matter of when. It just happened to reoccur in the first match back, but it's pretty common for a player with that injury to attempt to play on until the problem reoccurs. Jacob requested to postpone surgery so he could help the team, tested his shoulder prior to making himself available for selection, but it obviously didn't work. Not sure, again, why that has to be anyone's fault... doesn't seem to me like it caused any particular harm in attempting to get a few more games out of him. I know about those three + Sven's injury from the horses mouth, or from people pretty much adjacent to them. The others, I have no idea.

Not been right mentally, yes. Physically, he's been feeling fine. See my other posts. I'm not going to say anything else about it because I don't want to abuse their trust... All I will say is, there's an awful lot of people on the internet who THINK they can see what's happened, but in reality they know fuck all about the facts of the injury.

I agree the initial misdiagnosis wasn't handled well, but everything since October last year has been handled by 3rd parties. He hadn't been "feeling the effects of it" at all... in fact the last time I saw him and his family a couple of weeks back (before the Wolves game), he was very happy with it. I think he has been suffering mentally from perhaps a lack of confidence in himself or in the injury, but in terms of actual pain / movement issues... absolutely none at all.