St. Maximin

Yeah I can understand that, but I guess growing up supporting a team in the way (whatever the reasons) can still give him the connection that he doesn’t have with a local club. And yeah, that’s fair they haven’t been objectively crap . Just thinking it’s all relative though - if a team is picked because of their success as a kid, then seeing them often finishing 6-8th is going to be very frustrating given what they were previously used to. I do agree it’s a funny thing for a Liverpool fan to say, I should have added

Actually think ‘glory hunting’ is an odd concept and have no issue here. It’s a phrase used to attack people who picked a team before they were old enough to know better and if they’ve stuck with them that at least shows they aren’t fickle surely. Perhaps Liverpool isn’t as good an example, but I know plenty of Man Utd fans (cos I live in London etc) and they’ve been crap for years, but surely it doesn’t reflect badly on the fans that they still care about the team when they could easily jump ship. I mostly grew up in Kent while supporting Newcastle though, so there’s my take

That basically is it though . I don’t like him either and wish he’d shut up, but he hasn’t done anything truly horrible. You don’t have to like your manager or players for that matter. England fans have been cheering on a married right-back who impregnates multiple women. Don’t think people have decided they don’t want him in their team (until now) because he’s not likeable.

Really, what’s so unfathomable with a manager who moans a bit? Once they’re ours we see them differently - like I said I’m sure some of our players aren’t popular with other teams but we don’t care. He’s a proven winner. After several years I’d that over nice guy Gareth who ultimately always falls short. It won’t happen anyway.

I agree they are much weaker and maybe I’m being pedantic, but you did say it’s the worst squad in probably 25 years - which implies it was worse then despite the fact many of those were playing then and they were world champions . I agree with your overall point though. Maybe not quite in Germany too though as they were poor in the 2000s. Regarding Klopp, why would people mind that he loves a moan? I’m sure some of our players aren’t popular with other fans too - none of us care. He’s a proven winner and we’ve got past the celebrating a nice bloke that ultimately doesn’t win thing now.

I agree the format didn’t help, but ultimately it’s longer and more football to watch (which I still want as a fan) and more opportunities for decent teams. 16 is thin given how much talent there is and a tough draw could mean luck plays a big part. I’d rather expand to 32 and get rid of this silly 3rd place rule. Gives some of the weaker nations something to aspire towards and encourages attacking football in the groups. Still plenty of good (including world class) players didn’t make the tournament!

Leaving tactics aside, is there something about the we develop players detrimental to how we play? For the years I’ve watched us play, we love our big and powerful blokes in the middle of the park (Kane, Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Henderson, Rice etc). This includes some of the best of their generation too. But they don’t have much agility, quick feet or acceleration et al, so the football becomes really slow and they resort to sideways play or lumping it forward. I know Spain had a big guy in Rodri in midfield, but they’ve often relied on small players too who just happen to be really good in possession and keep it moving, freeing up their wingers too. Night and day watching them compared to us.

I know people criticise Southgate but the thing with international football is it’s boring and defensive… Except for the team that turned up with a squad very few thought would win and ended up beating everyone, despite a really tough run, playing fast and entertaining football that made them lightyears ahead of the next best teams.

It all depends on what counts as ‘good’ surely. We’ve been one of the best teams ‘on paper’ for a few years now, currently ranked 5th but been higher in recent years. So really when people are saying ‘good’ they’re talking about teams around about their level. By virtue of getting past the group stages of big tournaments, the likes of Senegal, Colombia and Switzerland are all good sides, but hardly up there with football’s elite. If you think you’re one of football’s elites (let’s say top 8) but always lose to the other teams, then that’s an issue. That was still a decent side last night and the Germany side we beat in 2021 was better than people are giving them credit for imo and we won it fair and square. Probably the fact it was at home that makes it seem less of an achievement. Where I do think there’s a big argument is the nature of our draws. We still have to beat good sides whatever the case, but what we’ve had since 2016 has definitely been more favourable than previous years. Group of death in 2014, knocked out by Italy (finalists) in 2012 quarters, Germany (winners) in 2010 round of 16, Portugal in 2006 and Brazil (winners) in 2002 etc. All before the semis.

Questioned Southgate’s tactics for years but he’s surely instilled some mentality in this team that serves them well in these tournaments. They looked very confident in the penalties against Switzerland. Lots of talk about Saka’s redemption but I’m not sure it was an issue for him - he knew he’d score and was happy he’d helped the team. Then tonight very late on you get Watkins pick the ball up at an angle, make space and finish it perfectly between keeper and post. Wouldn’t have expected that from previous teams.

Belgium too (we lost). But even if you overlook Southgate’s fortune with the draws, you normally can’t read too much into a manager’s achievements at international level, where you only need to win a handful of games (or draw and win on penalties), against teams that are most likely worse. It’s not like you’re being judged over a full season of 38+ games and at least in the CL you’ll play nearly twice as many matches. How often are the most successful international managers that highly remembered, at least compared to successful club managers?

Am I alone in thinking the “changed the culture” argument about Southgate is a bit exaggerated? No doubt in my mind he’s had a lot of positive influences, but I don’t get the impression the team hated each other in 2016 and he’s had to work miracles to reverse that in a short time. We had a nice bloke in charge then too; the main issue is we were rubbish but weren’t far from a repeat of Iceland here too. Only takes one game for a tournament to become a disaster. From what I’ve seen there were bigger issues many years before that when club rivalries were bigger. I think we’re also at a stage now where social media and openness over progressive views is making players seem way more connected to fans and therefore the country as a whole. I really enjoyed 2018 and definitely liked the team a lot more then, but I think being likeable is huge for people that don’t really care as much about football whereas now a lot of fans just want to see us be (or at least try to be) ruthless winners, not brave and likeable underdogs.

But it really is fair and true mate. It doesn’t take away from other things he’s done well off the pitch and it’s been done to death I know, but that’s for a reason - he gets favourable draws and he also had the home fans in 2021. Not forgetting he’s had better luck with group draws too (2014 for example). Fair enough if you can make sure that approach works, but yes when you’re relying on it and we have the same outcome as yesterday then you’re extremely lucky and should be strongly criticised! It shows there’s a clear limit to his approach and that you can’t think applying what worked best for Greece in 2004 is the same for a much stronger squad.

Yeah I think we will after Jude’s equaliser. The momentum is with the team now, the draw is in our favour and we have players that can produce those moments of brilliance. Part of me didn’t want to go through. If we can turn it on against Switzerland, beating a strong team playing good football then I’ll regain my excitement, but I hated how we played yesterday and felt bad for Slovakia. Yesterday proves that Southgate is indeed extremely lucky. He’s relied a lot on luck to be our second most successful manager. It also shows the ‘international football is often negative’ argument, even if it were true (which it isn’t), is an unacceptable defence for him. We were a minute from going out to the 45th ranked team in the world and relied on a moment of brilliance. Hardly a tactical masterstroke, not that Southgate will realise what he did wrong.

I was thinking this too but realised it does mean teams could play teams in their group stages again. It feels a bit wrong Austria and Netherlands are favourites to already play each other again in the quarters!

I think he’s a decent commentator and certainly adds excitement to the big games, but I don’t expect him to educate me on the Georgian flag.

Yeah I appreciate he has been without doubt our second most successful manager. But he’s been judged positively based on what came before and not necessarily who he has available. Better teams I agree have done worse, but their managers got all sorts of stick in the media that Southgate hasn’t. Controversially I also think the ‘changed the culture’ argument is a bit exaggerated. No doubt he’s had positive impacts and I think that started while he was u-21 manager too, but he’s also been fortunate to have a lot of exciting young players come through that have helped give the fans more excitement. We had a nice bloke in charge before and I don’t remember hearing about how unpleasant the squad was as recent as 2016.

Why did he do brilliantly though? Surely he just beat the teams you’d expect him to? If we’d lost to Germany at home, Ukraine, Colombia or Sweden we wouldn’t be accepting that. He’s a lovely bloke no doubt and I like a lot of his positive impacts on the team as a whole, but he hasn’t achieved anything special on the pitch. He’s had his honeymoon period and he’s getting found out now if he hasn’t before.

I went to Turkey v Georgia yesterday, in what would be the Yellow Wall. Comfortably the best match and stadium I’ve attended as a neutral. Walking up to the stands surrounded by the hostile Turkish crowd was quite something and only played 30 Euros for it. Also paid a lot more for the England match, but nevermind that.

While I completely agree with that analysis, it’s surely in part because she’s a female pundit in men’s football that’s encouraging the argument about her not helping the women’s game.

It might not be seen as cool but there’s definitely an overly cynical outlook on English people being patriotic from some. It might be the hooligans/far-right/gammons but you don’t have to be both.

Aye particularly odd seeing Bellingham as a ‘forward’, but nowadays in particular the lines are blurred and depends a bit on formation. Maybe ‘attackers’ sounds better as midfield implies they will be deeper. Also often players with very similar roles are considered different positions - Mbappe is always considered a ‘forward’ while Foden is typically a ‘midfielder’. Though their games are different, they’re very often playing in the same or similar positions. Yeah I’m really fun at parties.

Bit of an ignorant question, but what does being a good athlete mean as a footballer? It’s not the same as pace, fitness or strength, but some combination of them?

As much as I don’t like the way Arteta and Klopp behave, I just don’t share this view many of our fans have because they’re just individual idiots and don’t represent their club as a whole. I don’t think the relief of not seeing these guys win the league should be outweighing seeing the same - quite possibly very corrupt - team winning it ever year, eliminating all the excitement of the title race. It’s boring. And the managers we love to hate just get really emotional under pressure and are probably going to be far more likeable if they win it anyway. Then there’s the fans argument. Liverpool and Arsenal have a lot of fans and haven’t been enduring constant success recently (in particular the latter), so naturally there will be plenty of annoying and entitled ones, but they don’t represent the fanbases. I also hear people justify their views because they’ve “never met a Man City fan”, as if that’s a ringing endorsement.

I was there, naturally didn’t see it like this though . As a Bromley local since 2022, I’ve very much jumped on the bandwagon and went wild celebrating. Have enjoyed seeing them live though. Lower league is great.