St. Maximin

Some of the hatred for the fans here is pretty amusing . They’re one of the most supported clubs in the world; of course they have wankers in their fanbase. Now they’re getting there based only on speculation! I probably don’t need to say it but while I only support one team, along with other teams I very much have a soft spot for Arsenal and want them to do well. That doesn’t mean I approve of Arteta, but he’s just the manager and a pantomime villain. Far more toxic things in football.

Justice for all round nice club Man City. They may be facing countless charges of corruption, but at least they didn’t get angry a few times like Arteta did. He should be in jail. Imagine if we engaged in time-wasting tactics too. Wouldn’t be like us

I appreciate they are also targets of these rules, but so are everyone really. We’ve already had Forest and Everton punished, so it’s not fair that the big dogs that are winning everything get away with it, just because the rules are not appropriate. They have launched a separate lawsuit against the PL for that - I think it’s okay to support that while expecting them to comply with rules that everyone else has been required to and already seen smaller clubs punished. If they are not guilty and have successfully found ways around the rules legitimately, then of course they should not be punished and maybe we can take after them, but any breaches should be punished accordingly. As ohmelads said, they were still part of said conspiracy and looked to break away, so they’re no separate entity from the rest of the ‘big 6’. Interestingly it wasn’t even that big before the rules came into force, so the PL hardly became even less competitive. They had some fun with their crazy spending after the takeover anyway that wasn’t deemed illegal - they aren’t victims from what I’ve understood so far!

Yet City are one of the cartel clubs and are alleged to have breached rules that could be helping them out. The allegations are not recent and relate to rules from way before we could have posed a threat too. Not saying the allegations are all the same, but it's not really fair if the big dogs can get away with it but smaller PL teams can't, especially if that might be due to other factors such as the skill of a lawyer or status (not saying that will happen mind). Of course, there are arguments about whether the rules should exist in the first place, but that appears to be a separate case. Not that I wouldn't want changes also, but I don't like the idea of us being able to spend like crazy and ultimately we've still managed to spend a decent amount post-takeover and not made a significant amount from sales.

But it’s not about whether or not the rules should exist, but whether Man City have breached them. They apply to everyone and have already seen smaller clubs punished, so not prepared to see Man City get away with it (e.g. because of their size of quality of lawyer) if they are indeed guilty. Whether or not all these rules should be in place is a different argument.

Not agreeing on that mate. I see no reason why that’s the case if they aren’t breaking rules. They aren’t our rivals and people don’t like Liverpool and Arsenal because of their managers or fans they’ve come across, but every team has dislikable things about them. At least they have history of being good PL sides prior to oil money and could fill their stadiums. I get the frustration with FFP rules, but as long as they’re here it’s only fair everyone is made accountable.

Wait, there are 115 charges including some very serious allegations against a club that has dominated the league in recent years to the point it's boring, for breaching regulations that apply to all the teams and have been extremely disruptive to them... and people want City to win this?

Not going to read too much into yesterday’s match, positively or negatively… but as we’ve all seen it’s pretty clear how much stronger England could have been simply by playing more positively and using wingers that stretch the defence. Southgate had an absolute stinker setting us up with no genuine left-winger or left-back. Made it so easy for significantly weaker teams to defend against a team that virtually doesn’t use one of its wings. And it wouldn’t have taken a tactical genius to get us to look half-decent and threatening against footballing giants of Serbia, Slovenia and Slovakia if you can get the basics of selection right.

Never forget when Tshabalala managed to unite a whole continent with the goal for all of Africa.

Next Ashes tour is 2025/26 so ample time to get sacked and book those flights with the payoff.

It’s more that I think the concept is silly in general as it’s used to have a go at people for a choice they made as a kid and for sticking with it. Would be a bit different if they switched teams to every new champion. Any that have since become Man City fans (whether that’s a thing or not) deserve all the stick they get. As I mentioned before, it’s all relative still. A lot of Newcastle fans were frustrated at various points last season, when we’d just been in the Champions League but were regularly fighting relegation/in the Championship not many years ago. When you look at the success Man Utd have had in the last 30 years or so and seeing how their rivals have done in recent years, I can imagine that’s pretty frustrating. I still find it funny mind.

Yeah I can understand that, but I guess growing up supporting a team in the way (whatever the reasons) can still give him the connection that he doesn’t have with a local club. And yeah, that’s fair they haven’t been objectively crap . Just thinking it’s all relative though - if a team is picked because of their success as a kid, then seeing them often finishing 6-8th is going to be very frustrating given what they were previously used to. I do agree it’s a funny thing for a Liverpool fan to say, I should have added

Actually think ‘glory hunting’ is an odd concept and have no issue here. It’s a phrase used to attack people who picked a team before they were old enough to know better and if they’ve stuck with them that at least shows they aren’t fickle surely. Perhaps Liverpool isn’t as good an example, but I know plenty of Man Utd fans (cos I live in London etc) and they’ve been crap for years, but surely it doesn’t reflect badly on the fans that they still care about the team when they could easily jump ship. I mostly grew up in Kent while supporting Newcastle though, so there’s my take

That basically is it though . I don’t like him either and wish he’d shut up, but he hasn’t done anything truly horrible. You don’t have to like your manager or players for that matter. England fans have been cheering on a married right-back who impregnates multiple women. Don’t think people have decided they don’t want him in their team (until now) because he’s not likeable.

Really, what’s so unfathomable with a manager who moans a bit? Once they’re ours we see them differently - like I said I’m sure some of our players aren’t popular with other teams but we don’t care. He’s a proven winner. After several years I’d that over nice guy Gareth who ultimately always falls short. It won’t happen anyway.

I agree they are much weaker and maybe I’m being pedantic, but you did say it’s the worst squad in probably 25 years - which implies it was worse then despite the fact many of those were playing then and they were world champions . I agree with your overall point though. Maybe not quite in Germany too though as they were poor in the 2000s. Regarding Klopp, why would people mind that he loves a moan? I’m sure some of our players aren’t popular with other fans too - none of us care. He’s a proven winner and we’ve got past the celebrating a nice bloke that ultimately doesn’t win thing now.

I agree the format didn’t help, but ultimately it’s longer and more football to watch (which I still want as a fan) and more opportunities for decent teams. 16 is thin given how much talent there is and a tough draw could mean luck plays a big part. I’d rather expand to 32 and get rid of this silly 3rd place rule. Gives some of the weaker nations something to aspire towards and encourages attacking football in the groups. Still plenty of good (including world class) players didn’t make the tournament!

Leaving tactics aside, is there something about the we develop players detrimental to how we play? For the years I’ve watched us play, we love our big and powerful blokes in the middle of the park (Kane, Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Henderson, Rice etc). This includes some of the best of their generation too. But they don’t have much agility, quick feet or acceleration et al, so the football becomes really slow and they resort to sideways play or lumping it forward. I know Spain had a big guy in Rodri in midfield, but they’ve often relied on small players too who just happen to be really good in possession and keep it moving, freeing up their wingers too. Night and day watching them compared to us.

I know people criticise Southgate but the thing with international football is it’s boring and defensive… Except for the team that turned up with a squad very few thought would win and ended up beating everyone, despite a really tough run, playing fast and entertaining football that made them lightyears ahead of the next best teams.

It all depends on what counts as ‘good’ surely. We’ve been one of the best teams ‘on paper’ for a few years now, currently ranked 5th but been higher in recent years. So really when people are saying ‘good’ they’re talking about teams around about their level. By virtue of getting past the group stages of big tournaments, the likes of Senegal, Colombia and Switzerland are all good sides, but hardly up there with football’s elite. If you think you’re one of football’s elites (let’s say top 8) but always lose to the other teams, then that’s an issue. That was still a decent side last night and the Germany side we beat in 2021 was better than people are giving them credit for imo and we won it fair and square. Probably the fact it was at home that makes it seem less of an achievement. Where I do think there’s a big argument is the nature of our draws. We still have to beat good sides whatever the case, but what we’ve had since 2016 has definitely been more favourable than previous years. Group of death in 2014, knocked out by Italy (finalists) in 2012 quarters, Germany (winners) in 2010 round of 16, Portugal in 2006 and Brazil (winners) in 2002 etc. All before the semis.

Questioned Southgate’s tactics for years but he’s surely instilled some mentality in this team that serves them well in these tournaments. They looked very confident in the penalties against Switzerland. Lots of talk about Saka’s redemption but I’m not sure it was an issue for him - he knew he’d score and was happy he’d helped the team. Then tonight very late on you get Watkins pick the ball up at an angle, make space and finish it perfectly between keeper and post. Wouldn’t have expected that from previous teams.

Belgium too (we lost). But even if you overlook Southgate’s fortune with the draws, you normally can’t read too much into a manager’s achievements at international level, where you only need to win a handful of games (or draw and win on penalties), against teams that are most likely worse. It’s not like you’re being judged over a full season of 38+ games and at least in the CL you’ll play nearly twice as many matches. How often are the most successful international managers that highly remembered, at least compared to successful club managers?

Am I alone in thinking the “changed the culture” argument about Southgate is a bit exaggerated? No doubt in my mind he’s had a lot of positive influences, but I don’t get the impression the team hated each other in 2016 and he’s had to work miracles to reverse that in a short time. We had a nice bloke in charge then too; the main issue is we were rubbish but weren’t far from a repeat of Iceland here too. Only takes one game for a tournament to become a disaster. From what I’ve seen there were bigger issues many years before that when club rivalries were bigger. I think we’re also at a stage now where social media and openness over progressive views is making players seem way more connected to fans and therefore the country as a whole. I really enjoyed 2018 and definitely liked the team a lot more then, but I think being likeable is huge for people that don’t really care as much about football whereas now a lot of fans just want to see us be (or at least try to be) ruthless winners, not brave and likeable underdogs.

But it really is fair and true mate. It doesn’t take away from other things he’s done well off the pitch and it’s been done to death I know, but that’s for a reason - he gets favourable draws and he also had the home fans in 2021. Not forgetting he’s had better luck with group draws too (2014 for example). Fair enough if you can make sure that approach works, but yes when you’re relying on it and we have the same outcome as yesterday then you’re extremely lucky and should be strongly criticised! It shows there’s a clear limit to his approach and that you can’t think applying what worked best for Greece in 2004 is the same for a much stronger squad.

Yeah I think we will after Jude’s equaliser. The momentum is with the team now, the draw is in our favour and we have players that can produce those moments of brilliance. Part of me didn’t want to go through. If we can turn it on against Switzerland, beating a strong team playing good football then I’ll regain my excitement, but I hated how we played yesterday and felt bad for Slovakia. Yesterday proves that Southgate is indeed extremely lucky. He’s relied a lot on luck to be our second most successful manager. It also shows the ‘international football is often negative’ argument, even if it were true (which it isn’t), is an unacceptable defence for him. We were a minute from going out to the 45th ranked team in the world and relied on a moment of brilliance. Hardly a tactical masterstroke, not that Southgate will realise what he did wrong.