St. Maximin

Yeah it’s the norm. Most Dutch people I’ve met play it, often to a very high standard. Though plenty of whom I’ve met through playing hockey myself (sadly not to a very high standard). Bit disappointed seeing Botman wasn’t keen on it mind

I find if players are ‘lazy’ maybe there’s something a bit more complex going on with their personal life, mental health. I really doubt he’s satisfied with his professional situation the past few years - sure he would much rather the days of being an exciting talent than washed out, moved around clubs and getting booed by fans. He’s still a young lad and had a difficult upbringing, so I’d imagine still needs the right guidance to set him straight. I do also agree his position might not be the easiest to stay effective in and maybe his attitude has resulted from his frustration to find form again.

Southgate is a man I will always have a lot of respect for and will associate with some of my favourite memories of watching England so far in my life. I don’t think those are reasons to keep him on though and he should leave deserving of a lot of praise. I think we now know this is a very talented side (weaker starting line-up than 2006, but more depth) that should be thinking of itself as among the best and should no longer be seen as brave losers doing the nation proud etc. I think Southgate’s ability to create a positive culture and environment cannot be understated, but ultimately I think he lacks that winning mentality and so will only take us so far. Different sport I admit, but I can’t help but look at the impact McCullum and Stokes have had following a previous overly cautious coach and captain. It may not always work but it seems to allow talented players to thrive and probably has a significant impact mentally on the opposition too.

Yeah maybe. I don’t massively care either way personally mind - he was rightly sent off and a penalty was awarded, but it was definitely cheating. He wouldn’t be the first or last to though and for balance the reaction I agree is a bit weird and maybe a bit patronising to Ghana. There’s other things he’s done that should spark more outrage.

I would say stopping an otherwise certain goal (and winner) through intentionally breaking the rules is very much cheating. He cheated and gained an advantage of a potential missed pen followed by extra time and shootout albeit with 10 men, as opposed to almost certain automatic disqualification. It was mainly his celebration that annoyed people though, but him since being proven to be a terrible bloke and complete weirdo hasn’t helped him. Also, is it really what everyone would do or would they not just try and head it? I know he’s not the tallest but he’s not that tiny 👀

I think he’s being overfamiliar. Wonder if Des Lynam will be sharing his outrage at this.

Commentators trying to subtly show off their basic geographical knowledge in international tournaments. “There were some wild scenes in the bars and cafes of Seoul” when South Korea progressed in 2002, or “you’d think this would be Marrakech or Casablanca with an atmosphere like that” after the Morocco national anthem etc.

Presenter got confused on the draw. Bit of a poor error. Guessing if we get a draw we’ll be heading to the Stadium of Light for the replay.

I’m a bit surprised at the comments a about the football being bad. To me it’s just like the group stages of most other World Cups I remember since 1998, aside from 2010, which was notably worse with the football only Forlan knew how to kick. Some dull matches devoid of quality or attacking football and some exciting matches with a fair share of shocks. International football is often a bit cagey and defensive and the quality is by and large nowhere near the best teams in the Champions League etc. We knew what to expect in general. Of course like most people I don’t like the timing or choice of location, but I don’t think that’s really changed how good or bad the football is.

There’s also Mount, who has persistently offered very little for England in the Euros and WC so far. I like him - great player for Chelsea and clearly a good pro, but Southgate’s insistence on not even subbing him is weird. Even if you don’t want to start Foden as a CAM, he should be prepared to come on there. I can understand starting Sterling and Saka the other day after the Iran match. With all those poorly performing players though, it’s a shame Foden couldn’t be trusted to add something different. It’s clearly a sigh of Southgate’s weaknesses - don’t know how to manage one of your most talented players, so leave him out completely and stick with players he can ‘trust’ (ie often reliable but not normally effective).

Agree it’s a useful point, but I don’t think most people are so bothered by the result as the performance and tactics. It was absolute rubbish and USA would have deservedly won with a better striker. Southgate’s limitations were shown up again and refusing to use Foden is just weird. We should be building the team around him, let alone bringing him off the bench when starved of creativity.

In hindsight, I’m not so annoyed about the defensive approach as I am the fact we were absolute turd. I know it’s been mentioned before that winners of international tournaments can often be dull to watch, but that wasn’t a solid performance in spite of that. It was a complete shambles. We should be thankful Maguire played well, but also that USA don’t have a good striker. They outplayed us otherwise and had the better chances. I feel there’s no defence for that, even if they have decent players there, as we should at least be controlling these games.

To an extent I think that’s true, but ironically actually partly why Southgate has (at least historically) been so popular and why he and the team won SPOTY awards last year etc. We were still in the mindset they were these valiant losers doing the nation proud against all odds, rather than one of the favourites (if not the favourite) being outfoxed in a final of a tournament we virtually hosted as far as we were concerned. Saying that the views have often been a bit weirdly polarised imo. Some people despise him for reasons I can’t understand, like they have short term memories and forgot how depressing being an England fan was prior to 2018 or would be under Allardyce. He absolutely deserves credit for his achievements and also absolutely deserves a lot of the criticism that comes his way, tonight especially. It just shows his limitations that he can’t trust some of his more exciting and creative players and it’s so frustrating and puzzling to watch, like he’s deliberately trying to be boring with his ideas that clearly didn’t work when they mattered most (Croatia 2018, Italy 2021). It’s just such an English mentality to be overly cautious and suspicious of anyone a bit more maverick. Also what is Mason Mount doing getting 90 minutes every game?

At least half the Wales team can now support England.

I agree people have been unnecessarily critical of Southgate (at times), but I’m not sure how the opposite applies to Belgium here in that case. The only ‘golden generation’ embarrassment was losing to Wales in 2016, which was before Martinez took over. They were decent in 2018, finishing third and knocked out by the strongest side since Spain’s golden generation. I’d say the Euros were disappointing mind, but not a shambles. They again lost to the eventual winners, without the constant home advantage England had.

Can’t not like him after that. Really nice how much he seems to care about his family and disabilities too. And I’m not really that disgusted by the Almiron comment anyway. Funny as some of the comments since have been though

Telly-washing. Sickening stuff really. What about Yemen?!?!

Kane was excellent today despite not scoring and creates a lot of goals. He’s certainly not selfish (well accept maybe when he’s going to extreme lengths to claim goals in a golden boot race). Would have liked to see Foden start, but happy with Southgate today. The 4-3-3 was excellent and I hope he persists with it against the better sides, especially given there’s solid defensive cover in midfield. Saka offers so much in directness and end-product and Bellingham’s ability combined with maturity at 19 is ridiculous.

For the record I think a lot of the Saudi apologists among our fanbase (a very small minority) are smart enough to realise the potentially difficult moral position of supporting a team owned by KSA, so are almost justifying it to themselves by pointing out things like death sentences being carried out against terrorists etc.

I agree on the subjectivity and ultimately I’m happy for people to care more or less than I do. Don’t really agree on the sportswashing though. At least I think the sportswashing people are concerned about is on a much bigger scale. These are a small minority of our fanbase, let alone the UK as a whole and thus their impact is minimal. They are morons and you find those in every fan base. This has just given them a voice. I try not to worry too much about them.

Ultimately I support Newcastle and feel no allegiance to the Saudi state. While there will always be some discomfort at this takeover, a proportionate reaction is needed. We are 80% owned by the investment fund of the government, which invests in businesses all over the world and often far bigger amounts. The people we are aware are mostly involved in the club seem like decent and likeable people, who are committed to the club's development and that includes significant developments to the women's team, while also wanting to engage with the fans and benefit the region. This may include PIF employees, who are ultimately human beings also and do not necessarily share their moral compasses of the most powerful in the country (as with governments across the world). We have and will no doubt continue to benefit from the PIF's money, but it's still a club ran by great people with positive ideas for the club and fans rather than us simply becoming a soulless business growing due to 'blood money' (not sure how people come to that conclusion anyway). As for the Saudi connection, we're hardly advertising their values, human rights etc. If anything it's more likely to make people visit the country and have a positive experience in the same way people do to other gulf states with bad reputations for human rights. It's also pretty subtle relative to how it could be - bit different to having Sports Direct everywhere you look in the stadium.

Fair, all good points, though personally I don't really hear much about sanctions avoidance from the critics. I mostly hear about how sportwashing improves a reputation by deflecting negative attention, with the idea countries can commit atrocities behind the front of a football club, which to me doesn't really make sense due to the added media exposure. I can understand the issue of sanctions avoidance (compared to Russia, for example, who are not our allies), though as has been mentioned the greater media exposure and economic connections could help show they cannot continue to behave as they do and get away with it.

An argument I've seen is they don't control the majority of those companies like with NUFC. The flip side is they are much bigger and therefore far more Saudi money has gone into them. Ultimately people can choose their position and what they feel happy with or not and I'm fine with that. More an issue when people start telling people what to think or try to influence a takeover to be blocked due to 'sportswashing'. It's fine to be concerned about that, but it's a subjective take on a situation rather than a legal issue and therefore not a reason to prevent a business transaction.

It certainly happens but the question is more how effective is it? Supporters of a club even the size of Chelsea make up a small minority of football fans in the country, let alone the world, so a small minority of them choosing to be his apologist can't be that effective in the grand scheme of things as the overall reaction to the war here has shown. With regards to Russia, the 2018 WC is an argument it worked because many people were saying it's a great place to visit. That in itself can't be bad - last year I was thinking I'd like to visit at some point and maybe still will, despite the human rights abuses. At the same time the war shows its limitations because I doubt many of the 2018 fans who visited are defending it now. That the war happens to be in Europe and Russia are not one of our allies doesn't help their cause mind.

Yeah how I see it, so in a sense it’s still about reputation. The way some talk though is as if they’re trying to please us worthy westerners or hoping by buying a club those reports about human rights abuses will just go away. I really don’t think those apologists have much of an impact though - they’re very small in number and if anything are a hindrance when they get noticed on Twitter etc.