St. Maximin

I think this involves assumptions and shows a lot of things here can be interpreted differently by different people - both the meaning of an armband (or another gesture, such as wearing a poppy or 'taking the knee') and the intentions and views of someone who refuses to participate (or does so in a different manner in this case). I don't really see how his refusal to wear a rainbow armband can 'only' be interpreted that way in the slightest, unless you want to think the worst of people. It's been mentioned before he is Christian and his parents are highly involved in church etc. So clearly it might be a rather conflicting issue for him (hence the fact he has multiple, possibly conflicting messages). Maybe he, like many other religious people, rightly or wrongly, interprets the rainbow as a political symbol associated with a lot of anti-religious views (which tbh, it often is). Maybe some others simply interpret it is a show of support against discrimination and abuse towards homosexuals in football. Whatever the 'correct' interpretation is, there's pretty understandable reasons not everyone sees these things in the same way and no reason to think he actively encourages discrimination. To me it's not much different to James McLean not wearing the poppy for personal reasons - he has every right to hold those views, but clearly it comes from his own interpretation of it. The view that players like Guehi would love to 'ignore that gay people exist' and 'turn their backs and pretend that homophobia/bullying aren't a life-threatening problem for gay athletes' is pretty baseless here. The fact he hasn't spoken about it says a lot - clearly people are making up their own ideas of what he thinks. As I said before, from experience I think I'm pretty qualified to comment here (unlike other things I definitely have commented on!) due to my upbringing - I don't know a single Christian who would do the above, yet for all we know they have exactly the same views as Guehi and just haven't been pressurised to wear a rainbow. In fact I'm pretty sure they would be some of the first people I know to show actual support for someone abused because of their sexuality, which goes far beyond simply wearing a rainbow flag. But they might also have some Biblical views about morality, so homophobic scumbags I guess.

Ah fair, sorry I misread that . Tbh I think this is one of the reasons why I'm not particularly keen on people being strongly encouraged to take part in such gestures. The discussions can easily become political and someone's refusal can be easily misinterpreted or misreported, especially when they may actually share the same views as many other players over the matter.

I think this is true and unfortunately people on contrasting sides are pretty happy to contribute to the tribalism. If you do or don’t do something or vote for a certain party et al, you are a homophobe or a racist, rather than understanding why people are holding such views and the complexities of a lot of the issues.

Yeah, or maybe done something far more explicit. Genuine instances of hatred towards homosexuals in football are obviously a big problem and should be addressed with zero tolerance. This doesn't look like one.

Thing is, that's not what Guehi is doing. There is no evidence whatsoever he thinks the LGBTQ community are inferior. Clearly he's made his interpretation of the rainbow flag that might differ to others, but clearly other people have made their own interpretation of his intentions.

It actually says that everyone is a sinner and gay people are no worse than straight people, but gay sex is a sin (not that all the followers think like that). I've mentioned before I grew up Christian and also think organised religion is ridiculous, but most people don't just happen to hate gays because of their beliefs. A lot of them, quite possibly Guehi here, feel compelled to follow the Bible and might even do it reluctantly, but just accepting they have to. I didn't know anyone who actually wanted to believe gay sex was a sin, let alone hated gays and I've known hundreds of Christians, so I'm in a pretty good place to comment here. As always with these things some of the reactions are ridiculous, including on here. I do think Guehi is foolish for how he's acted, but he'd still be getting stick for just not wearing the armband altogether. Ultimately, people can interpet the meaning of it differently - for some it may just be about anti-discrimination in football, whereas for others it might be something more political and therefore I can understand why followers of Abrahamic religions feel it's incompatible with their beliefs even if it's just down to their interpetations. Why should they be forced to wear something they feel goes against their personal beliefs? Many footballers have quietly not taken part without making a fuss yet have still been made out to be nasty homophobes - it's a far cry from that rugby player explicitly sharing his views on social media. It's like people just don't want nuance and room for subjectivity here. The supposedly tolerant people are very quick to put people in the racist/homophobic/Islamophobic/anti-semitic box without recognising their personal reasons. Funny how people sneer at "the gammons" for getting upset that James McLean doesn't wear a poppy (which he has every right not to, due to his own personal reasons), but that approach doesn't apply for religion. Doesn't want to wear a rainbow flag? Homophobe. Doesn't want to take the knee? Racist. Doesn't want to wear a poppy? IRA supporter.

PSR was way before we were taken over - was introduced in 2013/14 - so I don’t think you can say they were brought in specifically to stop us. City’s separate case about associates party rules is different and I am not disagreeing on our relevance there. Ultimately if City get away with this, then it’s a slap in the face to everyone else (not just the likes of Everton and Forest), who have had to make major sacrifices out of fear of punishment, while the team that gets all the success gets away with it. I don’t think that’s remotely fair, whatever we might think about the PL and red cartel.

Well exactly; it's a reputation that is based on a very limited sample. My point is we can make our judgments on other sets of fans, but given we are in a far better position to comment, clearly our reputation is not accurate. Therefore I'm sure (to some extent at least) it works both ways. Also from my (very limited) experience, I haven't got that view of Liverpool fans tbh. I don't think we're in a position now to say this is a 'stitch up'. FFP rules have been in place way before the cartel voted in PSR and these charges date back to 2009. The charges allege multiple and consistent breaches over a long time in various ways - PSR only seems to be mentioned explicitly in 7 of them. And I think we should all care because the rules have had a major impact on everyone, with only smaller clubs harmed so far, so why should it be fair they get punished while the most successful team gets away with it? Not like they still haven't been able to spend crazy money legally.

Aren't Newcastle fans supposed to be 'deluded'? No smoke without a fire, but I don't really get this hatred of other fans when we've only come across a tiny proportion of them and clearly the wrong'uns stick in our minds more (no doubt there's plenty mind, but they're a huge fanbase). Got no arguments with people having an issue with the 'red cartel' and PL here. But the rules still apply to everyone and there are some pretty serious allegations against City when you factor in the number - it's not really fair if teams like Forest and Everton get punished and they don't. And ultimately we are quite clearly held back by these rules too, so naturally if Man City get let off I really hope that is on the basis of innocence rather than just having a really good lawyer or the like. Whether many of these rules should exist is of course a good question worth discussing, but still a different matter.

Thought this for ages. People don’t like the ‘red cartel’ clubs because of ‘the fans’, when at least they have enough fans to always comfortably fill a stadium. And if people don’t like them, they will be far less annoying when they’re actually winning stuff, hence why no one has as big an issue with Man City fans. I don’t remember it unbearable when Liverpool won the league in 2020. Plus as a neutral it’s really boring seeing the same team win every year. And City might also be a bit corrupt.

Maybe I’m not following him as closely in recent times (haven’t seen as much live football this season), but where has the view he’s not a centre mid come from? I get that for the balance of the team he shouldn’t necessarily play there, but the reason he turned his career round here and got himself into the Brazil squad was because Eddie played him there and he became our player of the season.

Again I’m coming from the perspective of a different sport but I find some expectations a bit surprising really. They only see things that happen quickly once and even if you have great eyesight, it’s pretty hard to tell a lot of small things that make a difference - if there’s too much force in contact, if someone got the ball sliding in, what angle someone’s studs were, how ‘unnatural’ a position someone’s hand is. The ref isn’t involved in the play and doesn’t have multiple camera angles and replays. I know VAR has been a nightmare but it’s hardly surprising people think potentially game-changing moments need technology to assist.

I do a bit of hockey umpiring and while I’m not saying Premier League reffing and upper London league amateur hockey are the same… but yesterday I had a mare and jokingly told a player to “f*** off” after he said I didn’t know the rules right in front of him. I then gave him a lower card after realising I’d overstepped. We laughed about it afterwards, but it made me realise how easy it must be to say something in the moment when players and managers really can be horrible. There’s 22 of them and often most of the stadium might be against you too. Refs have to make often tough decisions over something that happens very fast in a high pressure environment and are subject to abuse from thousands of people and public scrutiny, in a career that is not long. £70k is not a lot for that in the slightest

As in you get a lot of players who play for the countries of their parents/grandparents. In a way that seems odd to me too because they aren't representing the country that directly helped develop them.

I can appreciate these views. In a way it does seem odd the manager can be any nationality given they are clearly very influential on the team. I was more wondering what benefit it would have as I got the impression this was important to people rather than based on what international football is about. Thing is if the manager and coaches should also be English then I don't know where you would stop - kit man, medical staff, cooks? All clearly important to making the team what it is, yet like the managing and coaching staff they are differentiated from the people that need to be English because the latter are the ones who are on the pitch. Ironically Tuchel has probably lived in England a lot longer than a lot of players and their respective countries they represent.

Might be an ignorant question, but what difference does the nationality of the manager actually have? It doesn't seem to be as big an issue in other sports or the women's team for that matter. Is it because they should understand the mentality of the fans better? Will their patriotism inspire the players more or give themselves more motivation? I wouldn't say the players need any more inspiration and unlike Capello, we have a manager who has lived in England and speaks good English. At Newcastle we had a manager from Spain who seemed to understand the fans better than someone who grew up in the region. Surely playing and managing mostly abroad is a good thing too as he'll be more familiar with different styles that we'll be playing against.

Good appointment, this. He’s a successful manager and one that has played exciting football and that’s what England fans want really. Southgate deserved plenty of respect but he was neither of those. If I wasn’t a Newcastle fan I’d want Howe, but that’s a no go for me so can’t complain really. Time will tell ultimately, but at present I don’t buy concerns about how the British public will react to him because he’s German, or if he doesn’t sing the national anthem or wear a poppy. I’m pretty sure only a very small percentage will give a shit and ultimately you have to accept there is a toxic element to fanbases, country and club. We shouldn’t let a small minority of wrong’uns cloud our judgment of the England fanbase in general.

Tbh I reckon looking and sounding really gormless has made him a bit more of a laughing stock than the other no10s and held him back as a result, but I think he’s a nice lad really and imo arguably is better. He seems like literally all his intelligence has gone into football but it’s helped him become this good already, so fair play

Basically Arteta got a bit angry a couple of times against us and acted like a prat, then some of their fans started acting a bit weirdly on social media too. Despite that most of them couldn’t care less about us, while they seem to have become our rivals now.

I think that miss wasn’t as bad as it looked as he had a defender in the way of the corner too, but in those cases just whack it Sean. Gutted for him but he needs moving on still.

Yeah I agree the way they acted after our matches against them was ridiculous and no doubt Arteta doesn't help there. It all just comes from being pissed off at the lack of success in recent years though. Mentioned it already I know, but City fans aren't all harmless people - you just won't notice as much toxic behaviour because they've for a long time had very little to complain about. If they hadn't won the league in 20 years I'm sure they would react similar in such scenarios. Regarding Arteta's behaviour, I think it's a typical part of being a manager at the top of the league. Pep complains too and he'd do it a lot more when fewer things go his way. Same with Klopp, Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho etc.

People always say thus but fans are more likely to act like 'utter shitheads' when they are not getting what they want. Not like City fans are all wonderful people. You don't hear about the annoying ones because they've had very little to complain about. If they get a big punishment and go a while without winning much, watch them start to annoy people in the same way as the rest.

I can understand this view but City are part of it though. They are one of the 'big six' that just happens to be better and more successful in recent years and were lucky enough that they were able to spend loads in the last 15 years or so, only now it seems they may have gained success breaking rules. I don't like a lot of Arsenal, Liverpool, Man Utd et al fans, but I don't really get the desire to see them annoyed as they're also a non-entity like City are. I've said before I have a soft spot for Arsenal, but mainly I just like seeing something exciting at the top of the table as a relative neutral rather than the same happening every year. If it means annoying fans or a manager that oversteps the mark sometimes getting something to cheer about it's not the end of the world to me.

I just can’t get this way of thinking. Leaving aside the potential corruption, it’s so bloody boring seeing them win every time. Those teams would hopefully win it by being the best teams. Their manager or some melts in their online fanbases annoy people, but they aren’t the team. They’d also be way less annoying when they do win too. You won’t see Arteta going on one of his rants about how hard done his team is if they win the league. Watch how annoying Man City’s fans become when they stop winning everything and get become frustrated. Surely we should be looking for a bit of entertainment and excitement at the top of one of the best leagues in the world, over relief a team no one cares about wins it for the umpteenth successive time just as it means the teams we hate more didn’t get success

I would definitely agree on the ‘them and us’ view but I don’t think it’s anything deeply ingrained in most of their fans - it just so happens they’re the ones you hear most from as they’re apparent online and as Newcastle fans we also notice them more as it’s been in relation to our matches of recent. I think if the SJP fixture was reversed and Havertz created a goal like Joelinton too we’d be fuming. There’s been no shortage of complaints at the Prem being against us when we’ve had lots of VAR calls go against us too. I genuinely don’t get how people seem to know so much about a fan base based on such small samples - they just seem to be a team Newcastle especially love to hate now, but they aren’t our rivals. Their manager is a complete prat but he’s just one bloke there at the end of the day. City have potentially done far worse but that doesn’t seem to bother people as much. At the same time I know people love to hate a team as that’s how rivalries work, so I can’t change that.