TheBrownBottle

100%. Cristiano Ronaldo is a gifted player who rose to massive heights through sheer will, dedication and athleticism. Messi is a footballing genius on a level with Maradona - his talent is completely innate. There’s an argument (which I’d agree with) that Cristian Ronaldo isn’t even the best Ronaldo of all time. The tactical changes which came into the game over the last two decades - particularly the role of the lone centre forward - has meant that centre forwards have suddenly started getting goal records which look like those from when the offside law changed in the 1920s. Every good centre forward now gets 50+ international goals, and plenty have goal averages miles ahead of those just a generation ago. While I do think that the game improves technically generation by generation, it doesn’t improve to that sort of degree. C Ronaldo was at the apex of those centre forwards for several years - he’s probably a top ten players of time candidate, but probably not top five. You can see from the likes of Haaland what a superb centre forward can do in the modern game.

Convinced it’s a repeat of 2018 coming, but would fucking love to see Morocco go through

Shit that noise is haunting

Pulisic is a good footballer - his injury record is nightmarish though so unless there’s some hope of improving it you’d think we’d avoid. As a player he’s clearly a step up from the likes of Murphy and Fraser. That’s why the rebuild is fun - most of our signings are almost guaranteed to succeed given who they’re replacing.

My Google history now has ‘IShowSpeed’ in it. These forums must play havoc with my search history

AFL is the sport of Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia (Melbourne, Adelaide & Perth). Rugby league is the big sport in NSW and Queensland (Sydney and Brisbane). Cricket is reasonably popular everywhere (just like England), and rugby Union is pretty much posh boys only. Football has a level of cultural awareness during the WC, and oddly enough some of the radio stations will read out the Premier League results (along with stuff like NFL). The A-League struggles to even get that sort of traction

The irony of course is that the reason that we need to be taken over by a sovereign wealth fund in order to compete with ‘his’ club is because there’s millions of Brians around the world who’ve decided to support Arsenal because they saw them on telly once and they were good - pouring more money into their kitty and compounding the gulf in English football You don’t get your fucking moral high horse on this one Brian

I keep thinking that we’re going to win this thing. I know how ludicrous that is given our history, but it’s not going away. I’m tempted to book flights back to Newcastle for the final - obviously not to actually attend, but just to witness the bedlam when that trophy duck is broken. Sodom and Gomorrah will have nowt on the mayhem in the Haymarket, Bigg Market and Quayside that night (or that week, for that matter)

Here in Sydney, it’s hard to imagine anything moving the dial much in terms of ‘footy’ (rugby league) being the only real game in town when it comes to what people talk about at work. Even cricket seems to be followed on a similar level to England. Rugby league is the closest thing you’ll get to what football is - and because it’s so culturally ingrained, it’s hard to imagine it changing. If Kuol turns into a world-beater (fingers crossed) I don’t doubt the sport will pick up some followers, of course.

Yep, that's pretty much my thinking too

Agreed - that's why I mention that (other than 2010) they were all narrow defeats; England usually lose to the big sides, but they usually do so by a narrow margin. This is where both the hard luck stories and singling out of individuals comes from. Normal performance for England is to beat who you'd expect them to, and get knocked out by the first major country they face. The only times this has not happened in my lifetime are 94 (didn't qualify) and 14 (utterly shite and didn't get out of the group). 8 out of 10 WCs in my lifetime England have made it to the KOs, in 6 of those they made at least the QF, and the two they got knocked out in the L16 was to Argentina and Germany. I don't agree with the statistical thing re penalties mind; chance is not the reason England lose on penalties, but a failure of technique and practice. If it was just luck then, yes, you'd expect them to follow a coin-toss. The point of course being that 18 and 22 were not exceptional; they are the rule

Yep. Potter likewise. But not only do I think neither man would take it, it would be a poor move from the FA to offer it. English managers have won very little over the last few decades - both men represent an opportunity to fix that.

Englands KO record vs the big boys since ‘66: Ger - played five, lost four, won one (vs poor German side) Arg - played two, lost two Bra - played one, lost one Ita - played two, lost two Fra - played one, lost one Por - played two, lost two Hol - haven’t played It’s not the best like edit: forgot Spain! Spa - played one, won one Is it a coincidence that the only two victories were at home to probably the weakest sides those nations have produced in a long time - in Germany’s case, post-war? Something else to note - the only game on that list which couldn’t be described as ‘right’ was vs Germany in 10 (and even then there was that iffy goal ruled out for Lampard for 2-2). England don’t usually get hammered off those sides - they just usually lose. Again, plus ca change as they say in the Dordogne, Rodders

PS I said it before and meant it - if they beat France then he’s comfortably the most successful manager in my lifetime, and would deserve every plaudit coming. And I’d happily eat my words. I’m on the record on here saying precisely that.

Again, I think Croatia ARE heavyweight these days - I’m referring to England’s performance in knockouts. Therefore beating the Dutch in 96, Argentina in 02 etc isn’t the same. The Germany side is shocking and has been for a couple of years. The point is that England performed to par, and have done for pretty much my entire life. Southgate hasn’t changed that. I know he looks canny in his little wesskit, and makes sad faces at bad things, but he’s done nothing that wouldn’t be expected. Again, every person with any knowledge of football thought they’d beat who they have in the KOs under him. Croatia, Italy, and France were sterner tests and all were lost. No shame in that, but I’m not blowing smoke up his arse for basically being a nicer PFM

Everyone I know beforehand thought England would get to the QF and lose to France. I’ve seen few who thought that wouldn’t be the outcome. But yes; that was a remarkable performance again.

And at EURO 2020 we played them in the group stage. Again, England don’t win KO games against good sides as that’s when the pressure is on. Nothing has changed.

A footballing heavyweight or a side ranked higher would be a good start. Euro 2020 is the tournament with the strongest case for a job well done - though like Euro 1996, where England put out Spain and beat Holland, home advantage counts. And I’m only talking knockout football - I didn’t mention Argentina in 2002 because of that. England don’t beat sides that they aren’t favourite to beat in the KO stages - and that includes Euro 2020, where losses to Germany or Denmark would have been an upset

Nope. Which means the England have performed roughly at par - which is usual. Here’s the list from tournaments I have any memory of: WC 86 - lost to eventual winners Argentina, having won a straightforward last 16 game EURO 88 - out in group, which did contain both finalists WC 90 - out in SF, having got past two relatively equivalent teams in the L16 and QF EURO 92 - generally seen as poor performance, though were in a tough group containing the hosts, the winners, and France WC 94 - DNQ out of a tricky group containing four nations who could all well have qualified if drawn in a different group EURO 96 - lost in SF to eventual winners, having outplayed a good Dutch team (who had to win a playoff to qualify) and got pretty lucky vs Spain in QF (dodgy ref cost Spain) WC 98 - lost to Argentina in L16 EURO 00 - out in group -poor performance given the fact that they led vs Portugal and Romania WC 02 - lost to eventual winners Brazil in QF after easy win vs Denmark L16 Euro 04 - lost to host Portugal in QF WC 06 lost to Portugal in QF following easy L16 fixture EURO 08 - DNQ, generally poor though QF included an excellent Croatian team WC 10 - lost to Germany L16 Euro 12 - lost in QF to Italy WC 14 - genuinely poor, out in group EURO 16 - out in L16 to Iceland So to me, generally speaking par for England is losing to the first good side they play - the true exceptions being WC14 and EURO 16 (and DNQ in Euro 08) The only difference in the last four years has been the point at which England has faced a decent side. In the period listed, WCs have been: QF, SF, DNQ, L16, QF, QF, L16, GS, SF, QF. QF is par; we’ve reached in six of the nine WCs in which I’ve got any kind of memory. WC98 and WC 10 we faced a superpower in the L16, which made passage difficult. Only 94 and 14 broke the pattern with genuine failure. WC 18 we were fortunate enough to get Sweden in the QF - we didn’t face a good side until the SF. This isn’t to say Southgate has done a terrible job - he hasn’t - but the narrative that he’s worked wonders just doesn’t compute for me.

A ‘Wally’ is an inept person - it’s a bit like saying someone is a fool, but it’s much softer

Agree 100%. Adam P is a bit of a wally but ultimately harmless. Those twats have something of the night about them

It’s not worth getting wound up about in any way, shape or form. I’ve always found self-appointed ‘voices of the supporters’ weird full stop. They’re no different to the whoppers you get on Big Brother etc, only through the more limited lens of supporting a football club. Let them get on with it would be my take. There’s little which could be of less importance than this stuff - this is all about people deluding themselves into thinking millionaires and billionaires give the smallest of shites about anything they have to say.

Yeah, agreed. It always struck me that Lloris would go the same way that the first went. I feel more sorry for the bloke than anything else, but unlike the first I was convinced he’d miss / have it saved.

Kane has to take that second penalty for me. But he was obviously caught in two minds - he was going the same way as the first but knew Lloris would anticipate it so added more power, which was a fatal mistake. Hindsight is 50/50 unless you’re talking about something patently obvious, as this was. I think England performed exactly in this tournament as they did the previous two - beat the poor and mediocre, lost vs the first decent side they played. They went out to a very good side, and didn’t embarrass themselves - but that’s no different to pretty much every England tournament in my lifetime. 2010 and 2016 are the only two I can think of where you could potentially say they were ‘embarrassed’ - and even then, that was a lot more to do with condescension towards a very good Iceland team who’d been getting good results vs good sides over the previous two years.