4-3-3 is here to stay - so what now?

[Guest Knightrider]

This is Sam Allardyce's favoured system and while he'll use other systems depending on the opposition or how we/the opposition are playing during a game, 4-3-3 will be the bedrock in which any success stems from. This is certain. The manager has had huge success with it and to be fair, on paper at least, it is arguably the best system of them all as it's not only defensively strong it's also offensively strong too.

 

The main achilles heel of the 4-4-2 formation is that the strikers can often become isolated as teams sit back to defend a lead or as the opposition presses play. It also places a heavy demand on the midfield which can mean big holes in and behind that area of the pitch as the midfield joins the attack. One other drawback is it requires width and that can force a team to build their game plan around that to the extent where without it (width) the team loses it's potency. Many managers often struggle to find the right balance as a result.

 

4-3-3 however provides the best balance between defence and attack and vice versa as Chelsea have demonstrated to great effect since Mourinho took over and indeed Big Sam himself at Bolton who were not only strong defensively but also carried a major goal threat going forward, without ever being outnumbered in midfield. This is what he will hope to bring to Newcastle, an all-round solid winning machine.

 

At current though the attacking players he has at his disposal are not exactly ideal players for this system and as a result the team doesn't quite look balanced enough. In time he'll either ship out those not best suited to his favoured system or bring in such players. Indeed in time he will crack it as he did at Bolton.

 

The question is though, in the meantime how does he go about improving the current set up with the players he has it his disposal?

 

The players he's picked so far have picked up results but aren't performing too well individually or as a team within the context of 4-3-3. Do we continue with these players believing they can adjust and adapt? Indeed can they adapt? Who would you have playing in this favoured 4-3-3?

 

Of course you can argue we shouldn't be playing it and that Sam himself will have to change, but as the title says and the man himself said earlier on today, it stays.

 

Over to you.

[chicago_shearer]

I don't think it's at all certain that we'll stick with the 4-3-3.  Sam changed the system at half-time, and it's reasonable to think he might experiment again.

 

When they are back in contention, Barton & Emre could give the midfield a little more presence than it has shown so far in the system, but a big concern will be what happens with Owen & Martins.  They aren't wide players and there is a good chance they will struggle out of position.

[Newcastle Fan]

I think we sold the only player who is decent in a 4-3-3 formation..other players should just try and somehow adapt to it.

 

Its usually this way:

 

Two forwards on the wings, both with pace and finishing, and can put a decent ball in, Luque would've done great in this system but i don't  believe that Martins or Owen will be able to cope with this system.

 

A target man, goalscorer, able to win balls in the air and provide pass's to the other two strikers, Viduka is half way there but his arial abillty is shit.

 

Down the midfield we need at least one creative player, i believe Emre might be the key and he will do well alongside Barton, Smith and Geremi.

[geordie2000]

not sure 4-3-3 is here to stay, may find that we play 4-4-2 on wednesday with Enrique at left back and Charlie as the left winger.

 

I don't think we have had the players available to play any other system effectively.

[Guest Knightrider]

I don't think it's at all certain that we'll stick with the 4-3-3.  Sam changed the system at half-time, and it's reasonable to think he might experiment again.

 

 

He will keep experimenting and the game itself will dictate how we lineup during match stages but he will drill and drill and drill away each and every player so they are most comfortable in a 4-3-3 and able to adjust to other formations and back again when the need arises, that's how he works and how he'll develop the players over the coming months and years. When it comes off we'll be pretty damn hard to beat and very potent going forward, it won't always be pretty, but we'll look to get at the opposition quickly and pen them in, then to kill the game off ala Chelsea. As weeks turn into months we'll see the semblance of a cohesive unit playing 4-3-3, some players will excel, some will flop, in time however he'll have every single player knowing their role inside out whereby the system deployed will work 90% of the time, changing to suit and then back again of course.

 

At the moment I personally think the personnel are all wrong and that a few of them will never adjust or adapt or become 4-3-3 players so for me that means a few good players and big names may need dropped and replaced by others who might not be the best player individually but will make the system work better and therefore the team will be stronger.

 

I'd go with the following myself:

 

Barton Geremi Emre

Milner Viduka N'Zogbia

 

Those 6 players I believe are more ideal than others to make the 4-3-3 work. The 6 represent a mixture of creativity, pace, drive, flair, strength and shooting power, but above all else - balance.

[Thespence]

If we are going to play 3 forwards I think Zog-Vid-Smith would be my 3 of choice.  I still think Owen is our best chance of scoring, so we  have to go with a system that has him in the box as much as possible & I think that is 442.  I would like to sign Faye as I think him alongside Barton in 442 will gave us a solid middle, with Gezza & Zog on the flanks & Owen & Viduka up front.  Harsh on Oba on Milner.

[chicago_shearer]

If we were committed to the 4-3-3, I'd play Barton in front of the back four in a box-to-box role and sign a good pacey right-back because we will be dependent on the fullbacks for width and Carr won't hack it.

 

Geremi, Emre, Zoggy, Smith & Butt can compete for the remaining two roles in midfield.  I honestly don't know how to best fit Owen, Viduka & Martins in the same side.  Maybe drop Viduka and play Smith just behind a front two of Owen & Martins (since Viduka lacks the aerial ability for a target man anyway).  Or else pair Owen & Viduka in the middle and give Martins a free-role on either side to use his pace?  Works in FM! 

[Guest Knightrider]

BTW I'd like to see us play 4-4-2 at home myself, and that may happen in the short-term but long-term I think we're certs to play 4-3-3 home and away and only changing formation during a game itself or for single individual matches against the much better sides, much like we have done so far really.

[Guest Knightrider]

If we use Bolton's lineup as a template to how Big Sam may see things they lined up like this most often:

 

Nolan Campo Speed

Diouf Davies Anelka

 

Off the ball it became:

 

Campo

Davies Nolan Speed Diouf

Anelka

 

All six were pretty much interchangeable and that facet is key to Big Sam's philosophies.

 

Given our current players it might not say a lot about our team but in the near future I think it's a good indication of the type of player we'll deploy, especially in attacking positions. Which suits me, I've longed for us to have a team that can change to different shapes and systems with players that are comfortable in a number of positions and roles.

[Guest Knightrider]

Imagine Diouf and Anelka either side of Viduka? Or even Owen? All interchanging... mouthwatering, especially with Germi, Barton and Emre behind them.

 

If there are two players I'd like us to buy it would be those two, even if it cost us Martins and Owen regrettably. I like Martins and wouldn't have previously considered a swap with Anelka, an older, moodier and similar type of goals return player, very appealing, but thinking about the team, needs must I suppose.

[Mick]

4-3-3 is a horrible formation which has it's uses, it was OK starting with it against Bolton as we might have had problems if we'd gone at them with a 4-4-2, I'd also use it away to the top teams like Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal where we might need to win midfield to try and get something from these games.

 

It's too nagative unless you have the players who can play that way, I don't think we do, like I've said it has it's uses but it shouldn't be the way we play every game.  If we can get players who are comfortable with the formation then I'd be happy to see us switching formations during games to make the opposition think, at the minute I think we make it too easy for the opposition to read our game, we're too one dimensional.

[Guest Saint Andy]

Martins for Anelka? Madness!

[Decky]

TBH i think we need to change, we created next to nothing in our last two games, any chances were rare.

[Skirge]

Even if we had a fully fit squad we still would not have the right players for a 4-3-3, Duff is probably  the only one we have that has been any use in that system like he was at Chelski.

Zoggy showed today he needs to be moved forward to the wing where he can be more defective, once Enrique is fit then I hope thats what will happen. Milner wide right, Zoggy wide left and choose the central two depending on if its a home or away game between  Butt, Geremi, Emre, Smith and Barton whenn he is back.

Buy a RB then we do not need to over use Taylor, with having Cacapa and Roze to play at CB and Enrique at LB.

Then let Martins,Owen, Viduka and Shola fight it out for the strikers roles..

 

When we line up 4-3-3 we are to easy to play against, no one really seems comfortable in their roles, Milner dropping int o deep and takign up space, Martins is allover getting pushed out wide where he ends up not doing much as he is not much of a crosser of a ball, also he drops deep a lot to help win the ball back, when really he needs to stay pushed up, but with a three man midfield it needa one of the front three  to drop back and help out.

 

Sam did change it at half time to a 4-4-2, so maybe just maybe he is being swayed on his view of a 4-3-3..

[Thespence]

433 is Sams preferred starting formation, I think every game we have moved to a 442 at some point, maybe bar the Bolton game. The 3 in midfield are the problem & are the chaps not providing the fluidity to make it more easy on the eye. Because at the moment we are unbeaten, scored 5 goals away from home in two games,kept a clean sheet at home & are in 7th position. Spin doctor

 

 

[Howaythelads]

4-4-2 has been the most successful formation for almost 3 decades. At club and international level across the globe.

 

fat sam has brought in some decent players, but we have the players for 4-4-2 and you should always play to your strengths. I doubt FS will see that.

 

 

[ohmelads]

Mourinho and Benitez have both switched back to 4-4-2, Man Utd have struggled this season without the individual brilliance of Rooney and Ronaldo and someone to hold it up and finish moves, and Bolton's form after christmas was as poor as ours. Just a few examples which suggest it isn't the be all and end all by any means.

 

It's about playing to your strengths. Alex Ferguson used to play 4-4-2 for years because it suited his best players. As players got older he would make changes, such as withdrawing Scholes into a deeper role, bringing Giggs inside, and changing his formation to give Rooney and Ronaldo as much freedom as possible. Barcelona have done this to give Ronaldinho and more recently Messi as much freedom as possible.

 

With the players we have, 4-3-3 is definitely not the way to go IMO. Viduka may be able to hold it up but he just doesn't have the legs or the workrate to do the kind of job Drogba does all on his own. Owen is a penalty box player, he can't play up top on his own and he's wasted playing deep or out wide so that dictates a front two if he's playing. Martins hasn't looked suited to this formation at all so far, despite his goals at Bolton. And in midfield we just look congested, flat footed and sluggish, it doesn't seem to be doing anyone any favours.

 

I think 4-3-3 has its place for teams like us in stifling games against bigger opposition or in tough away games, situations where we want to level the playing field, keep things tight at the back and try and nick something. But against the likes of Wigan and even Villa at home we need to be thinking primarily about the 3 points, not damage limitation.

[Unbelievable]

^^^ what the wise man says..

[Guest goal!]

Totally agree with most of the previous posts/opinions, 4-3-3 might be Sam's choice of formation, but we have very few players that are suited to it, and the goals Martins and Owen will provide given the chance means whether he likes it or not he can't not play them as the pacy striker in a front 2 for the majority of games.

 

Like has been said 4-3-3 is fair enough when we are playing a cautious game eg. against the big 4 away from home when we can play the 'battling' midfield 3 that has played every game so far with Zoggy and Milner playing wide and Viduka or Ameobi up front alone (and both of them are a poor man's Drogba in this role)....

 

I know it's early days and we have to give it time but it's plain to see that 90% of our squad are more effective playing 4-4-2. It could prove to be a problem this season if Allardyce is going to be stubborn about it. If it's here to stay for good why don't we try and sort out a swap deal with Bolton - Martins and Owen for an Anelka and Diouf. Big Sam gets his 4-3-3 and Little Sam gets his 4-4-2

[Shearer9]

I think the key for this team to have success in a 4-3-3 is very simple: Get in 2 players who can play those wide front roles.  I think Zog could potentially be crafted into a player who could play in the front 3, but when I look at all our players, I think we have 2 players that will ever do really well in the frontline of a 4-3-3: Viduka and N'Zogbia.  We'd have to get another right-sided player to play top 6 football in a 4-3-3.  I do think it will start to come together though, especially once injured players are back.  I have faith in Sam, but with this group of players, we can only go so far in a 4-3-3. 

 

It is frustrating, because Martins is an unbelivably talented prospect, and I think his pace is one of the most dangerous things we have going for us offensively, but he won't develop properly and see a good goal return unless he's played in a 4-4-2.  Not to mention the Owen situation.  I think if we continue in a 4-3-3, we could see some unhappy comments out of Owen before the end of the season.

[Greg]

Played 442 from half time today.

[Guest Hodgson09]

How about playing a 4-3-1-2

 

Taylor-Cacapa-Rozenhahl-Enrique

 

      Geremi-Barton-N'Zogbia

 

        Smith/Martins/Milner (depending on form) or we could just buy a player perfect for this role.

 

                Viduka-Owen

 

Isn't that the best formation with the team we have, given everyone is fit.

 

A strict 4-3-3 is lacking in my opinion, having a convertable 4-3-1-2 4-4-2 system is best.

[Shearer9]

Perhaps most problematic is the way that so many of our midfielders and forwards are just one dimentional:

Butt:Very good at sitting back and covering defensively but offers nothing going forward, very bad when it comes to trying to thread through balls or shoot

Smith:Plays the "hard man" role pretty well, puts in a good effort, gets stuck in but doesn't offer enough going forward creatively to be an attacking midfielder and doesn't have the defensive guile to be a defensive midfielder.

N'Zogbia:Fantastic midfielder, but he's really a Left Winger, and he can beat his man and get to the byline to cross, but the left forward in a 433 needs to be getting into the box more and putting efforts on target, especially when the ball is on the right.

Milner:Probably our hardest working midfielder, but can't really create a lot in the way of shots on goal, is entirely dependent on his ability to get to the byline and cross, and his crossing definatley needs work, especially since he's not a speedster.

Emre:Good creatively and going forward, but I can only see him being successful in the AMC role, despite being a busy player

Owen:Doesn't really get involved in the buildup play, can't really beat his man, at this point, I think he's almost purely a goal poacher.

Martins:Very good at running at the defenders, OK passer, OK finishing despite huge power.  I think he's a better all-round player than Owen, but there's only room for one of them in the team for me.

Ameobi:Where to start?  Slow, lacks control, poor finisher for a forward, just not a top level forward.

 

433 simply requires more versatility, and I don't think we've got it.  The 3 midfielders need to be players capable of playing box to box, and I think we've only got Geremi and Barton who can do that, while the wing-forwards have to be forwards (especially when the build-up starts on the other side) and wingers when they've got the ball, and we've really got nobody who can do both.  Owen and Martins fall into the former category, while the Zog, Milner, Duff, and Solano fall into the former one. 

 

Sure, a team can carry one or perhaps two players like this.  I think you can even make a good argument that having a player like Butt in there can be helpful to the team, despite the offensive limitations of players like Butt, Makelele, Roy Keane, etc.  But from the 6 players that make up the midfielders/forwards in any formation, you can't have so many players relying on a good team performance in order to function well, you have to have players that function well and consequently create good team performances.

 

I suppose if I had to go 433, my first choice would be:

 

Taylor-Cacapa-Rozenhal-Enrique

------Barton-Geremi-Emre

-------Milner-Viduka-Zog

 

Perhaps our 2 best attacking players (Owen, Martins) don't fit in a 433, that should be the end of debate.

I'm not saying 433 is a bad system, I just don't think we currently have the players for it and it's not worth the effort to go into attempting to re-train players like Smith, Owen, Martins, etc to be 433 players when they're proven in a 442.  If Sam wants to buy specifically for a 433 then that's fine, and should be the way forward if we're to play this system.

[Howaythelads]

How about playing a 4-3-1-2

 

Taylor-Cacapa-Rozenhahl-Enrique

 

      Geremi-Barton-N'Zogbia

 

        Smith/Martins/Milner (depending on form) or we could just buy a player perfect for this role.

 

                Viduka-Owen

 

Isn't that the best formation with the team we have, given everyone is fit.

 

A strict 4-3-3 is lacking in my opinion, having a convertable 4-3-1-2 4-4-2 system is best.

 

To me it just complicates it. With everyone fit and no more signings or departures, how about this group of players used in a standard 4-4-2 formation:

 

RB - Geremi/Carr

CB - 2 from Cacapa, Taylor, Rozenthal

LB - Enrique/Edgar/Babayaro

 

RM - Solano/Milner

CM - 2 from Butt/Barton/Emre

LM - Zog/Duff

 

FW - Owen/Martins, Viduka/Smith

 

We have the wide players for 4-4-2, we have the strikers 4-4-2. We don't have the strikers, midfielders or fullbacks for 4-3-3. If FS persists with it I think it'll end up in tears like the shithead time in terms of everyone knowing the players can do better. I had thought we were on the right lines with the signings made by FS and I still think we are in quality of player and squad, but now he has to get the best from the players and the evidence so far isn't very encouraging on that score. Early days, yes, but 4-3-3 is shite for this group of players.

[Guest teepee]

i quite like 4-3-3 and i don't think our squad is as terrible in regards to this formation as some of you.

 

first of all i think that martins could be very good on either side, utilising his pace running at defenders and onto through balls.

 

there are, however, two problems: owen and the lack of an attacking midfielder. owen simply isn't perfect for this formation. he can probabaly play pretty well in it, but will never be truly great. the other problem is that you need an attacking midfielder with either plenty of goals or superb passing ability in him. and at the moment we don't have either of those. lampard, zodane, jon dahl tomasson, van der vaart etc are good examples of effective players.

 

therefore i would also prefer to see us play an attacking 4-4-2 at home, as we have three strikers perfect for it, two very very promising young wingers, duff coming back, a decent back four (barr a right back maybe) and central midfielders better suited for this formation.

 

but i think that the ability of a manager to change things around from match to match, and even more importantly during the match is key. i still think that allardyce has this ability and that he will be much more effective than our previous two managers because of this. we need to play to our own strengths, but just as much expose the weaknesses of our opponents, and this requires flexibility!

 

so to sum up, i hope that we'll see a lot of the good old 4-4-2 mixed in with a nice blend of 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2 and 4-5-1!

 

let's just remember that it is still early season and the manager and squad are still just getting to know eachother properly!