Shak Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 I know, but hear me out. Perhaps the most intriguing aspect of our team right now is whether 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 is the right formation to play if and when we get everyone fit and have our first choice team out. Allardyce has said before that he prefers 4-3-3 as a system to 4-4-2, and judging by the amount of central midfielders in our squad (Butt , Geremi, Smith, Emre, Barton) compared to the number of wingers (Milner, N'Zogbia, Duff) I think it's fair to say we'll be playing with 3 CM's more often than not. It's important, especially away from home, to have a bit more presence in the middle of the park, and 3 CM's is a good way to achieve this and will make us a much tougher team to play. However, so far we've looked much better in a 4-4-2 when we've played it. Owen is clearly not suited to an orthodox 4-3-3 as he's wasted out wide when we have the ball, and as our best player it's in our interests to have him on the pitch as often as possible. Viduka also works better with someone playing just off him rather than as the lone targetman type. Barton, while not in the same class as Gerrard by any means, is a very similiar player in style to him. One of the biggest things we'll be looking from out of Barton is goals from midfield, and ideally he'd be deployed similiarly to Lampard at Chelsea with licence to get forward all the time knowing he has two behind him to cover defensively. But I think, like Gerrard has at Liverpool for a couple of years, he could benefit the team coming in from the right in a 4-4-2. The key would be ensuring that whoever plays on the left hugs the touchline so we don't become narrow on both sides. Ideally it would be N'Zogbia or Duff when he returns, as both are natural lefties and can run at people with pace and get to the byline. Milner could do a job there, but if Barton was on the right we'd be awful narrow as Milner comes infield a lot on that side. Two of Butt, Emre, Geremi and Smith could comprise our engine room in the middle. The beauty of this is we can be quite flexible and easily change to a 4-5-1 when we don't have the ball. With the ball... Barton -- Geremi -- Emre -- N'Zogbia ----------- Owen ---- Viduka Without... ------ Barton -- Geremi -- Emre Owen ---------------------------- N'Zogbia ------------------ Viduka With Barton playing on the right, it makes us much more flexible as well in general. We can easily push Barton infield and bring on Milner for one of the CM's if we want to play a bit more of a jnatural 4-4-2 in order to chase a game more, or at home to the weaker teams from the start. Martins can play instead of Owen in certain away games where we want to go for a straight up 4-5-1, he's more suited to that spot than Owen. We can still easily change to 4-4-2 with that as well. Ideally I'd have him in the middle, but we need to be strong in the center of the park and I really feel Barton playing from the right could really allow us to play the 4-4-2 that our forwards seem so suited to, while at the same time having an extra man who can tuck in and really mix it up in CM when we don't have the ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Luque Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Rather a Barton-Geremi CM partnership. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohmelads Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 What nearly always happens when you push a centre-mid out wide is they drift inside and leave their full back exposed with the opposition winger and full back doubling up on him. This happened when we played Emre left wing and when we used to try and play Bowyer right wing. I think the fact we're even talking about Smith and Barton on the right wing shows that we've left ourselves short on the wings, my one criticism of this transfer window. As you rightly say Owen needs to be on the field and he needs a 4-4-2, but we've got loads of central midfielders and only one right winger, so we may well be left with square pegs in round holes and I can see where you're coming from. I'd rather see Geremi right wing over Smith or Barton personally, if it comes to that. But when fit Milner has to play in a 4-4-2 because he's the only natural right winger on our books. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Good points made but I'd rather we not try to fit players into a system. Rather a system should be designed to maximize our players' respective strengths. I think Barton's one of our best midfielders, which means people should be accommodating for him, not the other way around. Though Gerrard was effective for Liverpool on the right, he's now back in the center again because this way he can exert more influence on the way Liverpool play. Same thinking should be applied in Barton's case. Same applies with Owen. Put our best players in their best positions and then sort out the rest of the team. The way I see it is Zoggy starts on the left, Barton and Geremi start in center midfield and Owen starts as a central striker, not a winger-cum-striker. Edit - This is a reason I think Chelsea weren't at their best last season. Instead of sticking their best players in their best positions, they tried to accommodate players, which resulted in their disjointed play. Mourinho stuck Essien at CB or RB at times, stuck Lampard in a midfield role with defensive duties and they tried to play a 4-4-2 to accommodate Shevchenko instead of staying with the 4-3-3 which had won them two titles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Parka Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 4-4-2 all the way. Milner Geremi Barton Zog Really good midfield that like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Good points made but I'd rather we not try to fit players into a system. Rather a system should be designed to maximize our players' respective strengths. I think Barton's one of our best midfielders, which means people should be accommodating for him, not the other way around. Though Gerrard was effective for Liverpool on the right, he's now back in the center again because this way he can exert more influence on the way Liverpool play. Same thinking should be applied in Barton's case. Same applies with Owen. Put our best players in their best positions and then sort out the rest of the team. The way I see it is Zoggy starts on the left, Barton and Geremi start in center midfield and Owen starts as a central striker, not a winger-cum-striker. All fair enough but surely our main concern should be the good of the team rather than maximising individuals? Barton taking the hit and playing out of position (where I still think he could do a good job) allows us to play a system that suits Owen and Viduka, yet doesn't leave us exposed in CM as an orthodox 4-4-2 with say Milner and N'Zogbia on the wings may do. OML, I'd like to have seen us bring in a winger instead of Smith, but the fact that we haven't says to me we're not going to be playing with two pure wingers all the time, wo we're not really short there as much as we're not in need of much depth there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 4-4-2 all the way. Milner Geremi Barton Zog Really good midfield that like. Would get bummed away from home tbh. If we're playing a flat 4-4-2 with Barton in the middle then I'd have Butt partnering him before Geremi every time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Good points made but I'd rather we not try to fit players into a system. Rather a system should be designed to maximize our players' respective strengths. I think Barton's one of our best midfielders, which means people should be accommodating for him, not the other way around. Though Gerrard was effective for Liverpool on the right, he's now back in the center again because this way he can exert more influence on the way Liverpool play. Same thinking should be applied in Barton's case. Same applies with Owen. Put our best players in their best positions and then sort out the rest of the team. The way I see it is Zoggy starts on the left, Barton and Geremi start in center midfield and Owen starts as a central striker, not a winger-cum-striker. All fair enough but surely our main concern should be the good of the team rather than maximising individuals? Barton taking the hit and playing out of position (where I still think he could do a good job) allows us to play a system that suits Owen and Viduka, yet doesn't leave us exposed in CM as an orthodox 4-4-2 with say Milner and N'Zogbia on the wings may do. OML, I'd like to have seen us bring in a winger instead of Smith, but the fact that we haven't says to me we're not going to be playing with two pure wingers all the time, wo we're not really short there as much as we're not in need of much depth there. Yes, I agree about the team (obviously ) but I just think sacrificing the effectiveness of Owen and Barton isn't worth it. A system should be created for our match-winners (Owen and Barton imo). The difference in quality between someone like Barton in the middle and Butt/Geremi is too much, and how effective Barton would be on the wing is unknown therefore not worth the risk. I also think this system reduces how effective Owen is and Martins would be a better fit. If we revert to a 4-5-1 when we're defending, Owen won't be able to hang on the shoulders of the last defender and he no longer has the pace to burst through when we try to launch a counter-attack. Martins would fill this role better but then we're left with Owen on the bench, which is obviously not good as he's our best striker. Edit - ohmelads makes the point I was trying to make in a more articulate and intelligent manner (as usual) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohmelads Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Good points made but I'd rather we not try to fit players into a system. Rather a system should be designed to maximize our players' respective strengths. I think Barton's one of our best midfielders, which means people should be accommodating for him, not the other way around. Though Gerrard was effective for Liverpool on the right, he's now back in the center again because this way he can exert more influence on the way Liverpool play. Same thinking should be applied in Barton's case. Same applies with Owen. Put our best players in their best positions and then sort out the rest of the team. The way I see it is Zoggy starts on the left, Barton and Geremi start in center midfield and Owen starts as a central striker, not a winger-cum-striker. I agree with this. It stands to reason that there are two methods of using a squad, one is to fit a system around your players and the other is to buy players to fit a system. I think what often occurs is a bit of both, but the best teams seem to be designed around their best players. This is because you never know when a top player will become available, or because you don't always get your first choice targets. Man Utd didn't buy Rooney because he fit a system, they bought him as England's brightest youngster and then worked out how to get the best out of him. The same as when they signed Ronaldo, I seem to remember he began in a 4-4-2. The formation was changed and both Ronaldo and Rooney had more freedom of movement. Meanwhile Scholes dropped into a deeper role as his legs were going. Surely not a coincidence that Ferguson switched from a 4-4-2 which he had used for years. Barcelona designed a similar system to give players like Ronaldinho maximum freedom to torment the opposition. Milan try to give Kaka as much freedom as they can as well. In our case we have a top class striker who will be the difference in a lot of games for us, if he's played the way he wants and needs to be played in a 4-4-2 with a big striker alongside him. With regards to Barton, I think some people are overrated him a bit because of his England cap. I think he's a decent player who will hopefully be our driving force in midfield, making forward runs and passes as opposed to the likes of Parker and Jenas before him. I think he'll di alright in either formation but I agree he needs to be in the middle. Unfortunately I think when you look at the signings Sam has made he is building for a 4-3-3 but to be fair to him, he never knew if Owen would be staying and we still don't know how long he will stay. Also, because he has had to overhaul the squad, he has generally built players to fit his system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boey_Jarton Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 You guys are touching on advanced economic theories and Alfred Chandler's Strategy vs Structure debate. Its all very deep. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 As others have said, Owen is our best striker and Barton is our best central midfielder. We need to play to the best of their abilites and I hope we stick with a 4-4-2. Also not sure how Viduka would perform in a 4-3-3 early signs are he doesn't really have the legs to be mobile enough to work effectively in that set up. I still think Geremi could do a decent job on the wing (better than Smith at least) but it was quite telling Allardyce opted for Smith on the right yesterday. When Smith has played centre mid in the past its normally as the defensive midfielder so maybe Sam thought it would be too negative having Smith and Butt there and Geremi has a better range of passing. Maybe its wishful thinking on my part but the fact Allardyce has switched to a 4-4-2 since Owen has been able to start games is a good sign. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mobiius Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 can't see BSA putting joey barton on the right when his strength is cmf, no he is not as good as gerrad but if my mind serves me correct he was citeh's top scorer(just checked he was with 7goals 38 apps,6 the season before not many before that when he played more of a dmf) and this is because he likes to play from the centre. i have no doubt that if told to he would play on the right but i have a feeling it would spoil the part of his game he can offer us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 just on a side note, Barton will surely be back for Derby im guessing? Must have been the 6 weeks that was predicted by now is it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begbie Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 J Barton Metatarsal Fracture, back 17th Sep 07. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 J Barton Metatarsal Fracture, back 17th Sep 07. where's that from? Looking forward to seeing him, think it could be that spark we need in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 just on a side note, Barton will surely be back for Derby im guessing? Must have been the 6 weeks that was predicted by now is it? Physioroom reckon he will, I doubt it though personally as we'll want to ease him back I'm sure. Also metatarsals heal really slowly towrads the end of the rehab IIRC? Remember Rooney's took ages to be completely cleared up after looking like he was almost ready for weeks. I want Barton in the middle, eventually, but you need only look at how Gerrard has progressed at Liverpool to see that it's not naturally a bad thing to have one of your better players out of position. Now that Liverpool have some players better suited to 4-3-3 in wide areas and up front Gerrard is being moved infield more pemanently. ---------- Mascherano -- Alonso Pennant -------- Gerrard --------- Babel -------------------- Torres That'll become their first eleven in my opinion, Pennat possibly could go if someone better becomes available for the right hand side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 J Barton Metatarsal Fracture, back 17th Sep 07. where's that from? Looking forward to seeing him, think it could be that spark we need in the middle. That's from Physioroom.com, and is purely based on the original estimate. Be a while yet imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 ok cheers lads. regarding that sie though, where does it tell you about players injurieS? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 ok cheers lads. regarding that sie though, where does it tell you about players injurieS? http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/epl_injury_table.php Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon55544 Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 J Barton Metatarsal Fracture, back 17th Sep 07. where's that from? Looking forward to seeing him, think it could be that spark we need in the middle. That's from Physioroom.com, and is purely based on the original estimate. Be a while yet imo. Yea i cant see SA playing Barton until he is fit, Like he did with Owen. Slowly ease him into games until he is fully fit and ready, He'll probably play a few reserve games Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 ah. thanks. Duffers not back till November eh>Ah well, look forward to seeing him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Would rather jimmy and the zog played, though this causes problems as we have loads of midfielders. Personally would rather have Jimmy on the right than barton. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begbie Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 J Barton Metatarsal Fracture, back 17th Sep 07. where's that from? Looking forward to seeing him, think it could be that spark we need in the middle. That's from Physioroom.com, and is purely based on the original estimate. Be a while yet imo. Yea i cant see SA playing Barton until he is fit, Like he did with Owen. Slowly ease him into games until he is fully fit and ready, He'll probably play a few reserve games Aye was from physioroom.com, think Barton will be a sub in that game. Maybe get 15-20 min is my guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mrchoonz Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Big Sam will almost always start with Smith on the pitch as he loves his commitment in tackles. He even started him on the right yesterday. So Baton has little chance of playing on the right I think. Barton will start in the middle head of Butt and Emre Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Logic Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 I know we've only had 4 games but I am already getting a tad concerned about Sam's apparent high regard for Smith. We'll know more when Barton is back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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