A more positive view, post Derby

[Guest Sniffer]

Sorry HTT you gave the impression that you actually knew our interest went over and above the other 100 players we were connected with over the summer.

[Guest Knightrider]

Sorry HTT you gave the impression that you actually knew our interest went over and above the other 100 players we were connected with over the summer.

 

Seriously I thought our genuine interest in those two was common knowledge, especially the Gudjohnson one. I have no reason to doubt we weren't interested in them myself.

 

 

 

[johnnypd]

 

Baggio (again) do you seriously think he believes we lost because of injuries or fatigue?

 

The logic behind Smith's signing stands up when you take in account that at the time we didn't know if we'd be losing either or both of Owen and Martins, therefore another striker was needed. Furthermore, because of Barton's injury, Dyer's sale and Nobby's departure, which were all on the cards, we also needed an extra midfielder. Losing a versatile player like Dyer mean we'd need another versatile player. Well Smith is that. Also, we can't ignore the importance of signing good characters, especially at a club that has had a few bad characters over the years. He also had to rebuild the team spirit which was broken to the point where quite a few players were unhappy. You do this by fostering a good character which Smith's own will have aided. Smith's signing also makes more sense when you take into consideration that we could be without Martins in January and fitness concerns over Owen.

 

I'd rather we didn't sign him myself and for me he's a squad player and not good enough for the first-team on a regular basis, but I can see the logic in his signing.

 

 

i thought it was all going swimmingly until Smith came in and Dyer/Solano went out. surely if he knows the latter two are leaving he'd be looking to replace their attributes, guile and pace, so that as a squad we're not left short? It is one thing to say Barton and Emre are injured but you can't base the entire creative strategy of your squad on two players. If we'd kept Dyer, or signed a like-for-like replacement, then questions about filling the right or left or centre of midfield with a creative/pacy player wouldn't be mentioned. Instead it seems like Allardyce only looks for one type of player and that is the strong, direct, powerful type. and it is fair enough as the side needed these players, especially in defensive positions. but then in the few positions where those attributes aren't as important, where other skills take priority, he gets in another automaton with virtually none of the qualities we needed. and i don't see the claims about verstatility as being valid, Smith CANNOT play in midfield, that much has been established. As a striker he may be alright back up, though his scoring rate is up there with Ade Akinbiyi, but we shouldn't have splurged £6m on a fourth or fifth choice when we had other areas that needed to be addressed.

 

He can do a job in midfield, after all we have picked up 8 points from 15 with him in midfield. I agree though in prinbciple, he was the wrong signing but all managers make wrong signings, Smith in my opinion is the only suspect signing of an otherwise excellent summer of wheeling and dealing.

 

 

he's been a passenger in all but one game, regardless of the points we've picked up, which has more to do with kind opening fixtures than smith's influence in midfield.

 

I don't buy into this argument about Dyer btw, a lot of rewriting of history going on here. He was in the team throughout last season and we were devoid of creativity. He is not a creative player. He has pace I grant you that but we stopped benefitting from that when Bobby left. Nobby is creative of course, but lacked the legs and wanted out anyway.

 

I'm sure our creativity problems will be addressed in time so I'm not too worried. We created lots against Wigan so we do have it in us. Barton will be key you feel as will playing Beye and Enrique at full-back so N'Zogbia and Milner can operate wide in their correct positions. We can't dicount Viduka's ability to create too, he's a creative forward in a number of ways.

 

it is creativity as well as pace that we have missed and there's no way you can argue that dyer is not pacy. furthermore, Dyer scored 7 goals last season alternating between attack and midfield, which is about how many Smith has scored since leaving Leeds, despite playing for Man Utd. and despite a lack of quality on the ball his off the ball running is something we've missed badly. i'm not saying he is an amazing player but he offers something extra and putting his pace into this side would have quite an effect imo.

 

BTW you're saying we can't base the entire creative strategy on two players, you using Dyer and and Nobby is that not what you're doing?

 

i don't know how you worked that one out.

 

Take Ronaldo and Rooney away from Man Utd, and what do you get? A team that struggles to create their usual number of chances. Two is the norm, unless you have bags of money to sign quality in every position which Big Sam doesn't have. Seriously people are underestimating the job he had on in the summer. Building a whole new defence, padding out the squad etc. He can be forgiving for considering a combo of Duff, Emre, Barton, Milner and N'Zogbia as enough creative spark for the time being. Most teams would kill to have such players.

 

Again, lets be realistic here.

 

the point i'm making isn't so much that sam has based the side on two creative players (emre and barton) but that you are excusing our almost terminal lack of creativity on the fact we're missing these two. if the qualities that solano and dyer brought to the side had been replaced, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. even with the somewhat creative/pacy players left, one was played out of position at left midfield, another was stuck in defence, and the other was sat on the bench, so Allardyce isn't best utilising the resources available. as for his failure to add more/replace those who left, people were saying we needed a playmaker even before dyer and solano leaving was on the cards, instead allardyce signed a plodder.

 

for the derby game, there's also the issue of sam using a long-ball game, with Ameobi the targetman. first of all it is a pretty ignorant tactic to use as Ameobi is not suited to playing that role and if Allardyce knew anything about shola he'd know that. the fact he didn't is worrying, but hopefully he will have learned his lesson. the second is ignoring Derby's weaknesses in favour of trying to make us more "solid". playing the long-ball game plays into Derby's hands, if there is one way they can match us, and actually outplay us, is if the game is reduced to a purely physical contest, fought in the air. any fan knows Derby strugglewith pace and have been sliced open through the middle in every prem game they played before us, yet Allardyce didn't try to exploit this. the one time we created anythign was during a counter-attack, milner to owen to rozehnal, yet that was the last we saw of it.

[Parky]

Since when did Emre and Barton become creative players?

 

Emre for one can't play a mid-range pass to save his life.

 

...and I'd class Barton as an attacking mf with some creative components...But never as a 'creative' player.

[johnnypd]

Since when did Emre and Barton become creative players?

 

Emre for one can't play a mid-range pass to save his life.

 

...and I'd class Barton as an attacking mf with some creative components...But never as a 'creative' player.

 

All too true Parky.

[Mr Logic]

I'm wondering if that's what actually went wrong in this game, Big Sam knew he couldn't put out the team he wanted and he knew he didn't want to lose. So using his stats he put out the 8 (ignoring front 2 and GK) players who came out first in the stats for most tackles won and various other stats that would, in theory, make us hard to beat.

 

What I'm really wondering is if Sam pays too much attention to these stats sometimes. If he lacks imagination, or fears to make a mistake, falling back on stats everytime as a solution will only produce more results like monday night when you least expect them.

 

If the 'stats' have become a crutch of support, one that provides him with the answers he'd sometimes rather not make, or is uncertain about, it will not bode well for the future.

 

Any one of us would have gone for goals at Derby knowing full well that once the ball was in the net every Derby player would have been thinking 'Here we go again.' Sam set out to nick a goal and frustrate them at the same time. It was a major error, and one the players compounded because they were stifled.

 

Told to 'Get into them' they'd have probably done him, and us, proud. ( As long as Smith wasn't on the right wing  )

[brummie]

If two teams are around the same position then you still fancy your chances against them at home, the fact was Villa sat back and we couldn't break them down, mainly because the creativity that was needed to do so wasn't brought in in the summer.

 

True, but by the same measure, it isn't the end of the world if you don't take the points.

 

The main positive thing i drew from that match for you is that it is one which you would have lost last season, without a doubt (although, thinking about it, you won the fixture last year, despite being under far more pressure from us, but that was a fluke ).

 

I understand why you'd be concerned after a result like the Derby one, but really, this soon into the season, you've got to put your trust in the manager. You've got to give him the full season, in fact, which is why I think people who were predicting CL were madly off the mark.

 

If at the end of the season, there hasn't been a distinct improvement on last year, then you're at least criticising the bloke after giving him a chance to prove your initial worries wrong.

 

Brummie, were there any derby like skeletons in your own performances locker last season? I imagine there was probably one or two. How did Villa fans react?

 

 

 

Losing at home to Bolton, drawing at home to Fulham, playing Aaron Hughes as a defensive midfielder at Old Trafford and going 3 down in 20 minutes.

 

We reacted in the same way - the world is going to end. Except it isn't, it didn't, and it got better.

 

We also won 3 games in something like 17 matches at one point.

[Guest Sniffer]

FFS, Barton's return is the only straw I had.....I'm going down for the third time.

[Guest Sniffer]

Except it really isn't that much better, is it Brummie?

 

7 points from 5 games. And you beat a Chelsea team that may now crumble and a number of teams might pick up points off them.

[brummie]

Except it really isn't that much better, is it Brummie?

 

7 points from 5 games. And you beat a Chelsea team that may now crumble and a number of teams might pick up points off them.

 

Relegation certs at the start of last season to 11th? With no squad strengthening possible until January? That's a major improvement in my book.

 

We beat a Chelsea team that not many people will beat this season, although in the same way that your Derby game is just one game, so was the Chelsea match.

 

EDIT what I mean is, you've (and we have) got to be realistic. The fact you had a good spell and CL football a while back may have got your expectations up, but as of now, right now, it means absolutely nothing. You are where you are, and if you're going to improve - and I think you will - and do it for the long term, it will happen in stages.

[Wullie]

Interesting isn't it how you can draw one of the best teams in the Championship in the cup and everyone says "oh fuck, that's going to be tricky" but then they get promoted and strengthen their squad and everyone expects you to be putting ten past them on their own patch.

[Dave]

Interesting isn't it how you can draw one of the best teams in the Championship in the cup and everyone says "oh fuck, that's going to be tricky" but then they get promoted and strengthen their squad and everyone expects you to be putting ten past them on their own patch.

 

Yeah but in the Cup games the opponent and their fans always get right up for the match but in the league they... oh.

[Guest Sniffer]

Is one too much to ask then, wullie? Two at a stretch?

 

So you don't expect us to win another away game this season because Derby are probably going to turn out to be one of trhe worst, if not the worst, team in the league?

[Spider Jerusalem]

The alarming thing about the game against Derby was how convincingly we lost - we didn't manage a single chance on goal at all in the second half, when we should have been going all out for not just the equaliser but the winner against the whipping boys in the league.

 

This was too much like the performaces under Souness and Roeder when we would be going a goal down then just accept a one nowt defeat.  Too many of the 'big name' players managed to go missing on the night. 

 

So far this seaon in the league we have had

 

1 - a match where we got our noses in front and held on in the second half (Bolton)

2 - a match where we have been on the back foot and in reality should have lost (Villa)

3 - a match we were being battered but two great goals managed to secure a point (Boro)

4 -a match against a team who were intent to do nothiung but sit back and try to nick a point while we couldn't hit a barn door from a foot away for 85 minutes

5 - a match where we coudnt break down a defence that had conceded 15? goals in it's previous 5 matches - going down to a team that were beingtouted as the worst since the last time the Mackems were in town (Derby)

 

Not a very good record so far really....

 

[Guest Petay]

I took something possitve from Monday night, I live in the centre of Birmingham and until Monday the only place I could find that showed footy games was the Sports Cafe, which is about as close to hell on earth as you can get.  However, I found a pub not too far away that shows all of 'em, performance wise it was shite but I still have faith.

[Wullie]

Is one too much to ask then, wullie? Two at a stretch?

 

So you don't expect us to win another away game this season because Derby are probably going to turn out to be one of trhe worst, if not the worst, team in the league?

 

Is that how football works is it? We can't beat Derby ergo we can't beat anyone else away from home?

 

Man Utd did bloody well to finish 3rd in 2004 in that case after they lost at Molineux to a Kenny Miller goal against a side that eventually finished rock bottom. When sunderland went down with 19 points, 3 of them came against Liverpool.

 

Poor teams sometimes beat good teams, that's football.

 

You'd think we'd been beaten by a pub team, not away from home by a team in the same league, Jesus Christ.

[merlin]

Just watch us paste West Ham now.

 

I'll be astonished if that happens - apart from the Wigan game(and West Ham have far better players than Wigan), we haven't looked like 'pasting' ANYBODY - the team hasn't got enough raw pace to do that.

 

If we win 1-0, it will be as best that can be expected, and if they score first, we will have a mountain to climb....

[sparta]

The alarming thing about the game against Derby was how convincingly we lost - we didn't manage a single chance on goal at all in the second half, when we should have been going all out for not just the equaliser but the winner against the whipping boys in the league.

 

This was too much like the performaces under Souness and Roeder when we would be going a goal down then just accept a one nowt defeat.  Too many of the 'big name' players managed to go missing on the night. 

 

So far this seaon in the league we have had

 

1 - a match where we got our noses in front and held on in the second half (Bolton)

2 - a match where we have been on the back foot and in reality should have lost (Villa)

3 - a match we were being battered but two great goals managed to secure a point (Boro)

4 -a match against a team who were intent to do nothiung but sit back and try to nick a point while we couldn't hit a barn door from a foot away for 85 minutes

5 - a match where we coudnt break down a defence that had conceded 15? goals in it's previous 5 matches - going down to a team that were beingtouted as the worst since the last time the Mackems were in town (Derby)

 

Not a very good record so far really....

 

as for the derby game we should have subben owen for martins at halv time as for the injury, taken shaola off for beye (becouse ameobi was shit), moved zog and milner up, moved taylor at left (wich im quite shure a position he would be able to play) and converted to a 4-3-3 and go all out.... but sam didnt, and we lost. to bad! next match! come on m8!

 

as for the other games

 

1 - A match against bolton where we performed brilliantly attack wise (oba showed of some skills and magils as well) good game

2 - A match against villa where we showed good defending and good attacking but lacked the finishing kill. average/good game

3 - A match against boro wich we really should have won, but lost to some dodgy defending and very dodgy attacking. very average game

4 - A match against wigan who sat back and counter attacked. we broke down the attacks but struggeled to bag it until the very end, great against "hard" opposition that defended well

good game

5 - A match that i wished i never turned the telly on, horrible everything... defending, attacking, finishing (the few we had, rozhendal... bag that one next time!!!!!), tactical(djeeeez sam??)

should have subbed at least 2 players at break time. very very very bad game

 

depends on how you look at it m8, for my part one very bad, one very average and 3 good games???

still 5 matches in, we have played generally good with lots of good displays and some horrible moments

 

we are still a team who miss most of the 1 team players (however you rate them) think of that m8

[Guest SLK]

Look all...I'm a very patient person and don't like to judge people so quickly and I don't think I'm the type who can be considered as a knee jerker BUT what happened last Monday was very disappointing NOT because our players didn't show commitment and drive, that is expected every now and then from any team to have an off day...My beef is with how horribly wrong Sam Allardyce got his team SELECTION and SUBSTITUTIONS...THAT IS WHAT IS WORRYING ME...He (Sam) didn't see it being a problem:

 

1) Playing Ameobi in the team let alone for 90 minutes when everyone could see his contribution to the team were FOULS and OFF SIDES...for 90 minutes for god sake...

2) Alan Smith on the Right Wing, even a monkey will laugh at that decision

3) Not playing Martins from the start and at least deploying him on the Right Wing instead of Alan Smith would have made a positive difference...

4) Taking Geremi off instead of Butt and keeping Alan Smith on the right instead of moving him to the centre

5) Faye coming on for Geremi I mean what was that about

 

This is what is worrying me, glaring obvious mistakes in selection and position of some players and the fact he couldn't manage to fix the problem during the game but left it like that (Ameobi and Smith) and made it even worse with some of his crazy substitutions...

 

[BottledDog]

I'm pretty positive that the Derby game gave Benitez a good laugh.

 

He has responded to Allardyce's remarks about how lucky the former was to still have a job at Liverpool btw.

 

"I want to say two things," he began.

 

"Firstly, I think he should be more worried about his own business because he must have more problems than to waste time talking about other managers.   

 

"Secondly, has he forgotten Liverpool winning the Super Cup, FA Cup and Champions League as well as reaching another Champions League final, a Carling Cup final and twice finishing third in the Premier League?

 

"Maybe he doesn't have a great memory."

 

http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=420932

[Guest teepee]

i'll also wait with my final judgement of sam, but like slk i was very dissapointed by his choices on monday, especially the smith decision -he has been shocking.

 

if those 11 were the only fit players i'd still have played smith as the attacking player in the middle and geremi on the right, leaving butt to protect the back four. that would be so much more natural for these players....

 

on the positive side though - i do think we will improve, and possibly quite quickly, especially with a settled back four with jose and beye fit and settled in. i expect to see a much better nufc side come christmas.

 

i am, however, extremely worried about the faith everyone seems to have in barton. if he is played in the same sort of set up as against derby he wont make any difference whatsoever. it will still be three hard battling central midfielders creating nothing at all.

[Guest bluegeordie]

I for one have really enjoyed reading this thread - an intense debate, with good points made by both (presuming there are only two) sides. At the end of it all, I can definitely see some merit in what seems to be Position I - the "Rome wasn't built in a day" thesis. From this perspective, our pathetic loss to a desperate Derby is no more than the collapse of a single building, which is largely attributable to the newness of our building team, and the absence of some key builders (Barton, Emre, Viduka etc). From this point of view then, Derby is best understood as a hiccup and wake-up call in what will be a gradual, but sometimes painful, long-term building project.

 

On the other hand, I can also understand the advocates of Position II, who seem to be wondering out loud if the collapse of the (Derby) building is best read as a symptom of some broader underlying problems in the city - namely, a surplus of plodding engineers over creative architects, and a new mayor who is already making some worrying decisions (including employing tradesmen well outside their areas of expertise, and beyond their capacities - Smith on the right of midfield, ffs - whilst also inexplicably embracing an urban terrorist named Ameobi, while a widely respected tradesmen named Oba, who just might be open to accepting employment in another city, is left un - or at least seriously under - employed).       

 

Presuming you've followed my over-stretched analogy and ramblings up to this point, where do I stand on all of this? Well, basically, I hope and (for the most part) think that Position I is correct, but I must confess that, even at this early stage, I fear that there's some serious merit in Position II. Either way though, I feel that if we're ever going to finish building a city that's truly worth boasting about, then along the way there's no room for complacency when even a single building collapses, and those who oversee the building process (Big Sam etc), and the actual builders themselves (the players), should expect intense ongoing scrutiny from the citizens (that's us and, in an ideal world, Anal Oliver and his peers ... fat chance there!). On balance then, I'd call for global calm (where the new regime is concerned), but local concern (over what went so terribly wrong at Derby).     

 

Now, I'm going to don my disguise, and set off for Cairo in an attempt to track down Cleopatra  :icon_farao:  :horse:

   

[Parky]

I for one have really enjoyed reading this thread - an intense debate, with good points made by both (presuming there are only two) sides. At the end of it all, I can definitely see some merit in what seems to be Position I - the "Rome wasn't built in a day" thesis. From this perspective, our pathetic loss to a desperate Derby is no more than the collapse of a single building, which is largely attributable to the newness of our building team, and the absence of some key builders (Barton, Emre, Viduka etc). From this point of view then, Derby is best understood as a hiccup and wake-up call in what will be a gradual, but sometimes painful, long-term building project.

 

On the other hand, I can also understand the advocates of Position II, who seem to be wondering out loud if the collapse of the (Derby) building is best read as a symptom of some broader underlying problems in the city - namely, a surplus of plodding engineers over creative architects, and a new mayor who is already making some worrying decisions (including employing tradesmen well outside their areas of expertise, and beyond their capacities - Smith on the right of midfield, ffs - whilst also inexplicably embracing an urban terrorist named Ameobi, while a widely respected tradesmen named Oba, who just might be open to accepting employment in another city, is left un - or at least seriously under - employed).       

 

Presuming you've followed my over-stretched analogy and ramblings up to this point, where do I stand on all of this? Well, basically, I hope and (for the most part) think that Position I is correct, but I must confess that, even at this early stage, I fear that there's some serious merit in Position II. Either way though, I feel that if we're ever going to finish building a city that's truly worth boasting about, then along the way there's no room for complacency when even a single building collapses, and those who oversee the building process (Big Sam etc), and the actual builders themselves (the players), should expect intense ongoing scrutiny from the citizens (that's us and, in an ideal world, Anal Oliver and his peers ... fat chance there!). On balance then, I'd call for global calm (where the new regime is concerned), but local concern (over what went so terribly wrong at Derby).     

 

Now, I'm going to don my disguise, and set off for Cairo in an attempt to track down Cleopatra   :icon_farao:  :horse: