Switching full-backs, N'Zogbia, 4-3-3 & Big Sam's thinking?

[Guest Knightrider]

If Owen doesn't fit. Don't play him.

 

If your unsure about Viduka/Geremi in the short and medium term, don't sign them.

 

It's the whole changing the fullbacks that makes me think Sam is as clueless as me. You sign 2 players yet you play 2 players in their wrong positions instead.

 

It's like he has no plan or no idea of what he wants.

 

And to add insult to injury the football is dire.

 

Football is a balancing act. I'd say given the ability of the team as a whole to the results and performances, as a ratio we are about near enough hitting the nail.

 

The full-back issue pisses me off too, but there will be a method in this madness, which I could try to discuss, but I don't want Baggio mistaking that as me papering over the cracks or bumming Allardyce

 

 

 

 

Please share these methods.

 

 

 

OK then, here is my theory on why he keeps switching the full-backs which will also, I hope, open some eyes to how Big Sam thinks regarding planning and 4-3-3:

 

Lets start with Enrique. The Spaniard for me is clearly Big Sam's long term number one choice at left-back. He has all the hallmarks of a good full-back; physically compatible and deceptively quick, although not lightning, with a good left foot for crossing and passing, especially over distances. In short he's exactly the kind of full-back Big Sam likes, otherwise he wouldn't have spent all that money on him, being the prudent spender he is.

 

However being young and foreign Enrique will need eased in. The Premiership can be an unforgiving environment for inexperienced players regardless of their ability, nationality or age. One or two mistakes or dodgy games can lead to a crisis in form which can take a long time to recover from, if at all. Injury risk is also a factor. Remember Luque how he didn't really recover from his injury and how being thrown in at the deep end by Souness affected him?

 

In short Big Sam has decided not to throw him in at the deep end and will ease him in, so by this time next season he'll be fully up to speed with the demands of Premiership football and indeed what will be expected of him from the manager.

 

Now this theory of mine isn't so much a theory because Allardyce himself said it will take Enrique and players like him a long time to get settled, and that he isn't one for just throwing players in at the deep end, he likes to ease players in like Wenger and Fergie does. Can anyone remember Evra when he first joined Man Utd? He was shocking and at one point dropped and we've all seen what can happen even to the more experienced players just by looking at Cacapa against Portsmouth. I can see him taking a while to recover if at all. Now you may say well why has Big Sam thrown Cacapa in at the deep end, he's foreign and new. For me Cacapa isn't in the manager's long term plans so is expendable if you like. Enrique however is very much a key player for Big Sam and Newcastle United, tactically as much as anything, which would probably require another thread to discuss.

 

As a result of this easing in I believe Enrique's first season at Newcastle will be hit and miss, he'll feature one week then not at all the next, until he's ready in the manager's eyes. He's potecting him you could say.

 

Beye, Sam's other full-back, this time at right-back, has been used or trusted more but dropped once or twice, most recently for Taylor. My opinion on this is Beye was signed as short-term fix, able to also cover at centre-back which is important to the manager because he likes his versatile players. This also explains why he has been thrown in at the deep end by Sam unlike Enrique, he too is expendable like Cacapa. Especially as in Taylor Sam has a successor to the right-back position. Yes, I think Allardyce sees Taylor as his long term number one right-back and Beye and Taylor will be alternated throughout the season with Taylor playing more often than not as I think Big Sam has boobed on Beye or isn't convinced by him. Likewise I don't think he's convinced by Taylor at centre-back.

 

Where does N'Zogbia come in? Well, due to Enrique needing eased in and Babayaro's continued absence through "injury" someone has to play there. But that's too easy an answer from a manager renowned for details and planning. As such I think N'Zogbia is being defensively trained first and foremost for his role as a wideman in a forward three under the 4-3-3 system which will be Sam's long-term strategy. Why do I think this? Because he did the very same thing with Pedersen at Bolton, tried him out at left-back before sticking him wide-left of Davies in a three pronged attack.

 

The manager likes pace and directness in wide areas, especially further forward and he likes this supported by strong, quick and physically robust full-backs (Enrique and Taylor). However his wide attacking forwards, due to a narrow midfield, have to be defensively strong for the system to work as they have to get back and forwards when off and on the ball.

 

If N'Zogbia is to be trusted in such a key role, he will need to brush up his defensive abilities and to learn all about positions, timing and working the line and channel and to be far more disciplined as a team player. What better way to drill such things into a player than by playing him as a defender?

 

Who else did this? Mourinho with Duff who in training was often used at left-back and even featured there in one or two games. Where did Duff play for Chelsea? Wide left of Drogba in a 4-3-3. Who did Sam base his system on? Chelsea's. Which book sticks out on Big Sam's shelve? Who does Sam most admire and likens himself to? Mourinho.

 

This is where things become more clear.... I hope.

 

What is 4-3-3 geared towards? Transitional play which basically means when on the ball (4-3-3), when off the ball (4-5-1) and when the ball changes hands. However if you look at 4-3-3 it isn't really three banks of 4, 3 and another 3, no it looks like this:

 

http://www.newcastle-online.com/433.gif

 

Why do such managers like Mourinho and Big Sam favour this system? Take a look at the diagram and you will see that the defenders and defensive central midfielders are set up identical to the midfielders and attacking forwards. The idea behind 4-3-3 is that there is no midfield, just defence and attack, this is so that the team always has one foot in defence and one foot in attack to take advantage of the transitional part of the game when possession changes hands which statistically, and this will help you understand why Big Sam uses this system, is the single pivotal area where games are one and lost. 4-3-3 or in it's strictest form of 5 defenders and 5 attackers cuts out the midfield area and thus shortens the pitch and with it the route to goal, conversely it also shortens the pitch for attackers so they can defend high up as it were in a normal system of say 4-4-2, i.e. boxing teams in which is what Bolton did very well. Basically in 4-3-3 your defenders are also midfielders and attackers, where as your attackers are also midfielders and defenders. Big Sam takes this to the extreme. He likes to shorten that pitch even more, or rather the route from defence to attack, hence the long ball, but that's for another thread.

 

Now another aspect of transitional play is positional rotation. In order to take full advantage of the moment the ball changes hand, you'll want players who no matter what position they play or what type of player they are, can seize that ball at the point or moment possession changes hand, this means a player stranded on the right wing despite being a left footer being able to benefit despite being out of position. When possession breaks on either side, a team is at their most vulnerable because they will more often than not be out of shape, this is why you'll get Milner putting in a challenge at left-back, because Enrique has lost the ball further up (possession changes hands) for example. Now you can't really do anything about this otherwise your players will be no more than statues, fearful of moving from their starting position. There is a work around though and that is to get you players able to deal with unfamiliar situations, for N'Zogbia that would be an attacker being able to defend so should he ever be in that position, he can deal with it, or if we are on attack having won possession, being able to attack down the right despite being left-footed.

 

This is why Sam likes versatile players and is using some players out of position even though he can play them in their correct position, this is also why Milner and N'Zogbia swap flanks among the other benefits flank switches can provide.

 

Now if I understand the manager and his methods like I do, I think I'll be pretty near enough spot on and as a result I'm confident that he's gearing up towards 4-3-3, which N'Zogbia will play a huge part in, as well Enrique and Taylor. I will also say here and now Owen and Martins in particular won't be part of these plans and nor will many others. As such he's working with half a team really and we'll not progress as far as we can do until he can bring in the right players for 4-3-3. His hands are tied in short at current and he's having to make do, experiment a lot and as much as this may not be liked very much on here, I think he's not too fussed about this season, such are his convictions and faith in 4-3-3 and his own methods (or madness?)

 

I know many of you don't like 4-3-3 but it is without doubt the best formation there is. Mourinho for me has the best football brains in football and will have spent thousands of hours looking at every single variable of every single formation both in theory and practice, and if he's identified 4-3-3 as the best, it is the best. Trust him, the man's a football genius. It is a formation for both home and away, on the ball and off it and it's fluid and almost 100% perfect. One downside is that it requires specialist players which in our case means they'll have to be bought if they can't be converted.

 

PS thought it would be better off discussing these things in a separate thread.

 

PPS I could be wrong like

[Decky]

Im not reading all that, ill just wait for the movie

[Yorkie]

He ACTUALLY drew a diagram.

[McCormick]

Good (allbeit extremely long) post as always coach

[Dokko]

One downside is that it requires specialist players which in our case means they'll have to be bought if they can't be converted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aye just a bit, and we don't have the team for it, so lets not try and put square pegs in round holes.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

Im not reading all that, ill just wait for the movie

 

To sum up, if everything goes to plan we'll be playing 4-3-3 in the near future, our players will interchange a lot and we'll be very fluid and aggressive in the attacking third while defensively strong at the back, oh and midfield will become obsolete

 

This will bring many points our way and have us finishing high in the table = yay

 

In the meantime we'll continue to play shit and be inconsistent = boo

[Mick]

This is just an attempt to baffle everybody with the over use of words.

[jack j]

He ACTUALLY drew a diagram.

 

crikey moses man i can't read all that man

[Yorkie]

Fair point.

 

I actually will give that a read cos i can imagine some of my own sentiments are in this uber-post, they usually are.

[Guest Knightrider]

Aye just a bit, and we don't have the team for it, so lets not try and put square pegs in round holes.

 

The way I look at it we don't have the players for any formation or rather regardless of how they line up I still don't think there will be a huge swing either way. Playing 4-4-2 with Zoggy and Milner left and right won't suddenly make us into a crack outfit, and neither will playing Martins and Owen up front together for example. We are that shite or substandard as a team, we would get beaten away to Reading however we lined up while we'll always beat your Evertons at home all the same. To become a consistently strong side however home and away, will require a lot more than playing good players in their right positions, it will require a game plan based on a system that each player understands and is comfortable with 100%. Only then will we become a top team, irrespective of how many good players we have and it is these things that separate your Liverpools from your Spurs (last season) or us and Liverpool at current. We like them have good players, although not as many, but they are also a good team, and we aren't. Me, if the manager wants to gear towards 4-3-3 for the future because he believes that is the best way to succeed or the only way, at the expense of short-term gains, more power to him as it won't matter and if anything, will obstruct development because when it comes to introducing 4-3-3 and everything that goes with it a year down the line, he'll have to undo 12 months of 4-4-2 or whatever way we play and will need a year anyway to get things going for 4-3-3. I guess you could say he's laying down the concrete before he builds his house. He could just knock up a hut which will keep us all warm I suppose, but will it stand the wind, rain, sleet and snow of 4 seasons?

[Guest Andrew Flintoff]

Sam likes his crosses to be curled in towards goal as opposed to away from it (see Milner's goal yesterday, Zog's FK v Bolton and even to cement a point, Pompey's 4th last week)

 

Curling them in towards goal means one slight nick and the balls in the net. To do so you need your wingers on opposite flanks, which takes a fair bit away from their ability to beat their man, but in Sam's big picture, they don't even need to beat their man to whip a decent ball in as the best "in-swinging" crosses come from deep.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the logic, but the logic is there.

 

Sam's no idiot. He's struggling at the moment, no doubt, but he doesn't know his best team, his best players or even his best system. Let him learn.

[Guest Knightrider]

Sam likes his crosses to be curled in towards goal as opposed to away from it (see Milner's goal yesterday, Zog's FK v Bolton and even to cement a point, Pompey's 4th last week)

 

Curling them in towards goal means one slight nick and the balls in the net. To do so you need your wingers on opposite flanks, which takes a fair bit away from their ability to beat their man, but in Sam's big picture, they don't even need to beat their man to whip a decent ball in as the best "in-swinging" crosses come from deep.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the logic, but the logic is there.

 

Sam's no idiot. He's struggling at the moment, no doubt, but he doesn't know his best team, his best players or even his best system. Let him learn.

 

Good spot and a deep curling ball that comes back out as you've described also off balances a defence and puts a 'keeper in two minds. "Do I stick or come out for it"? Such moments of hesitation are areas players can capitalise on which Bolton more often than not did and consistently too regardless of who they were up against.

[Guest optimistic nit]

i really think its quite arrogant to assume that the captains of the top 2 sides in france last season were signed as a short term fix and are expendable.

[Dokko]

Aye just a bit, and we don't have the team for it, so lets not try and put square pegs in round holes.

 

The way I look at it we don't have the players for any formation or rather regardless of how they line up I still don't think there will be a huge swing either way. Playing 4-4-2 with Zoggy and Milner left and right won't suddenly make us into a crack outfit, and neither will playing Martins and Owen up front together for example. We are that shite or substandard as a team, we would get beaten away to Reading however we lined up while we'll always beat your Evertons at home all the same. To become a consistently strong side however home and away, will require a lot more than playing good players in their right positions, it will require a game plan based on a system that each player understands and is comfortable with 100%. Only then will we become a top team, irrespective of how many good players we have and it is these things that separate your Liverpools from your Spurs (last season) or us and Liverpool at current. We like them have good players, although not as many, but they are also a good team, and we aren't. Me, if the manager wants to gear towards 4-3-3 for the future because he believes that is the best way to succeed or the only way, at the expense of short-term gains, more power to him as it won't matter and if anything, will obstruct development because when it comes to introducing 4-3-3 and everything that goes with it a year down the line, he'll have to undo 12 months of 4-4-2 or whatever way we play and will need a year anyway to get things going for 4-3-3. I guess you could say he's laying down the concrete before he builds his house. He could just knock up a hut which will keep us all warm I suppose, but will it stand the wind, rain, sleet and snow of 4 seasons?

 

I understand, and long term its a good goal, if it works. But i've never seen NUFC move to a different formation other than 442 and for it to work.

 

We need a complete re-haul of the team, i just don't think SA has the time for that, and he needs to show ASAP that he knows what he's doing, or whats going to happen is he gets sacked mid change, and we start again with another manager. That's going to be more harmful than good. The formation change hasn't worked, and it wont with this team, so what is best right now is that we pick up as many points as possible while making ourselves more attractive to better players in the future by showing were back in business.

 

If he's here for the long term, then this would be a better course of action than sticking with a 433 regardless of form and results dont you think?

 

[The College Dropout]

Do you get payed directly by Big Sam?

 

The effort is appreciated HTT. But I doubt anyone read the whole thing thoroughly.

 

Why the total lack of belief in Martins? He has a better chance of working in a 433 than Owen and even Viduka.

 

 

Why sign Viduka when you know he'll struggle to play in your preffered formation?

 

You do know by the time he left Chelsea, Mourinho was playing a 442?

 

I think you've created a hypothesis for something that is being done completely randomly. I call it the "Lost" effect. Wing it as much as you like and someone will draw logical conclusions to what you did.

 

Owen on the right of an attacking 3? Seriously?

 

 

Anyway I hope your right and Sam is as clever as he tries to be.

[Minhosa]

If 4-3-3 is the plan for this season where does Owen fit?

 

I can't see him in a 4-3-3 at all.

 

I could see Viduka as the main central forward and perhaps Martins off him but I don't see where Owen will work in that formation.

 

Are you saying you think he'll be gone?

[Guest Andrew Flintoff]

To say Viduka would struggle in Sam's preferred formation is crazy. He's the perfect guy at the front of that three IMO, with 2 of Owen, Martins, Zog, Milner, Duff and Smith just off him.

[Baggio]

Sam likes his crosses to be curled in towards goal as opposed to away from it (see Milner's goal yesterday, Zog's FK v Bolton and even to cement a point, Pompey's 4th last week)

 

Curling them in towards goal means one slight nick and the balls in the net. To do so you need your wingers on opposite flanks, which takes a fair bit away from their ability to beat their man, but in Sam's big picture, they don't even need to beat their man to whip a decent ball in as the best "in-swinging" crosses come from deep.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the logic, but the logic is there.

 

Sam's no idiot. He's struggling at the moment, no doubt, but he doesn't know his best team, his best players or even his best system. Let him learn.

 

I don't think that's enough to form an opinion that he likes crosses curled in personally, to start with 95% of freekicks in that area will be curled in by any team, secondly Sunderland left a pathway open for Milner to run through for our goal yesterday.

 

 

 

 

[Guest optimistic nit]

imo if you've got a really good winger, a prime example is solano (although zog is at 85%) and a good box player you have to play your winger on his right side. Solano, Robert and Shearer being a good example. if you have average wingers and no target man or goal poacher crosses curled in are more effective, because they require less skill for both crosser and striker. that said milner is useless on the left for 95% on the time he's there, and although i've never watched any of zogs matches on the right i'd imagine he's equally as bad there.

[Guest Andrew Flintoff]

Just watch how we cross our balls in then. I'm not basing my opinion on three instances, I could go back and point out every single one but I can't remember them all cos I'm not HTT

 

Just seem to recall Bolton scoring a lot of similar goals, Okocha in particular swinging these types of crosses in and seeing the ball end up directly in the net.

 

Plus a free kick on the left is normally hit by a left-footer with it curling away from goal, n'est-ce pas?

[Guest Knightrider]

I understand, and long term its a good goal, if it works. But i've never seen NUFC move to a different formation other than 442 and for it to work.

 

We need a complete re-haul of the team, i just don't think SA has the time for that, and he needs to show ASAP that he knows what he's doing, or whats going to happen is he gets sacked mid change, and we start again with another manager. That's going to be more harmful than good. The formation change hasn't worked, and it wont with this team, so what is best right now is that we pick up as many points as possible while making ourselves more attractive to better players in the future by showing were back in business.

 

If he's here for the long term, then this would be a better course of action than sticking with a 433 regardless of form and results dont you think?

 

 

Then we must afford him that time. If we don't, this problem won't go away and will only grow and the next man will only want to overhaul things anyway, so why shouldn't the man we ironically appointed to overhaul things, a man with a proven track record in that area, get the time to do just that?

 

Because a few fans don't like the football on show or are too fucking impatient and stupid to accept no matter who is in charge, they all need time? Fuck them, they are idiots who can't see past their own nose.

 

The formation changes haven't worked? I disagree, we are 6 points off 6th place so they are working to a degree. Who is to say changing them again will work better anyway? Not that this is important at this early stage, for me anyway, I'd rather look ahead and think about where we'll be in a few years time because of these foundations being put in place now than make snapped judgments based on 12 games.

[Guest optimistic nit]

Do you get payed directly by Big Sam?

 

The effort is appreciated HTT. But I doubt anyone read the whole thing thoroughly.

 

Why the total lack of belief in Martins? He has a better chance of working in a 433 than Owen and even Viduka.

 

 

Why sign Viduka when you know he'll struggle to play in your preffered formation?

 

You do know by the time he left Chelsea, Mourinho was playing a 442?

 

I think you've created a hypothesis for something that is being done completely randomly. I call it the "Lost" effect. Wing it as much as you like and someone will draw logical conclusions to what you did.

 

Owen on the right of an attacking 3? Seriously?

 

 

Anyway I hope your right and Sam is as clever as he tries to be.

 

Owen can only ever play as a box player. even to suggest doing anything else with him should be enough to put you in an asylum in my opinion.

[Guest Andrew Flintoff]

I understand, and long term its a good goal, if it works. But i've never seen NUFC move to a different formation other than 442 and for it to work.

 

We need a complete re-haul of the team, i just don't think SA has the time for that, and he needs to show ASAP that he knows what he's doing, or whats going to happen is he gets sacked mid change, and we start again with another manager. That's going to be more harmful than good. The formation change hasn't worked, and it wont with this team, so what is best right now is that we pick up as many points as possible while making ourselves more attractive to better players in the future by showing were back in business.

 

If he's here for the long term, then this would be a better course of action than sticking with a 433 regardless of form and results dont you think?

 

 

Then we must afford him that time. If we don't, this problem won't go away and will only grow and the next man will only want to overhaul things anyway, so why shouldn't the man we ironically appointed to overhaul things, a man with a proven track record in that area, get the time to do just that?

 

Because a few fans don't like the football on show or are too fucking impatient and stupid to accept no matter who is in charge, they all need time? Fuck them, they are idiots who can't see past their own nose.

 

The formation changes haven't worked? I disagree, we are 6 points off 6th place so they are working to a degree. Who is to say changing them again will work better anyway? Not that this is important at this early stage, for me anyway, I'd rather look ahead and think about where we'll be in a few years time because of these foundations being put in place now.

 

I hope that comment chimes with a few people because it's possibly the most correct statement this board's ever seen.

[The College Dropout]

To say Viduka would struggle in Sam's preferred formation is crazy. He's the perfect guy at the front of that three IMO, with 2 of Owen, Martins, Zog, Milner, Duff and Smith just off him.

 

Yes he would struggle.

 

He's no Kevin davies, Drogba or even Heskey. The main striker in this formation needs to be mobile. A human battering ram, this isn't Viduka.

[Guest Andrew Flintoff]

To say Viduka would struggle in Sam's preferred formation is crazy. He's the perfect guy at the front of that three IMO, with 2 of Owen, Martins, Zog, Milner, Duff and Smith just off him.

 

Yes he would struggle.

 

He's no Kevin davies, Drogba or even Heskey. The main striker in this formation needs to be mobile. A human battering ram, this isn't Viduka.

 

Wtf, thats exactly what Viduka is. Holds the ball up, lays it off. He's perfect for the top of the 3...