Rate the Summer Signings....

[Chris_R]

With 5 as average:

 

Beye - 7 - Looked solid and threatening when going forward.

Smith - 4 - Crap in midfield. Worked tirelessly up front but still no goals.

Barton - 5 - Looked rubbish initially, starting to get into his stride now.

Geremi - 3 - Looked great pre-season, been rubbish of late. Perhaps being played out of position though.

Faye - 8 -  Solid at the back. Been really impressed. OK, he's been injured but I'm not marking him down for that.

Viduka - 6 - Fat, slow, lazy and very very talented.

Cacapa - 7 - 15 bad minutes does not make a bad player. He's generally looked very good.

Rozehnal - 5 - Hit and miss, averages an average mark.

Enrique - 6 - Lots of potential, haven't been disappointed in him at all. Needs games

 

Average: 5.66 - Well done Sam I guess. Especially as the guy I've given the lowest score to cost nowt. Pity he's our undroppable captain.

[Howaythelads]

Whey hey, football manager.....

 

At least some common sense is now appearing as some people have realised Smith can't be judged as a midfielder. He obviously shouldn't be judged on goals scored either.  The fact is the team has looked better in almost every game where he's played as a striker, inidicating he must be doing something for the team. I realise this can't show up in statistics though, so that's some people well and truly knackered when it comes to judging a footballer.

 

Anyway, it's too early for a thread like this.

 

I think everyone is being extremely harsh on Smith, and if basing judgement on the games he has played up front, means a lot here are very short sighted when it comes to analysing his performances. Scoring goals is critical as a team, but not everything when judging an individual player. Smith has never been the player to bang in 20 plus goals, someone next to him needs to do that. Anyone who has played football or understands the game can quite clearly see that when we have played Smith in an attacking role we have looked much better going forward. Against Arsenal he was immense, he wins and retains about 95% of balls punted / passed into his chest, feet, body, or winning it with his head, he holds the ball up and lays it off or retains posession until he has support. He's the sort of player that can link midfield to attack.

 

Improving his goal tally is obviously important but that's not what his game is all about, if you expect this from him then you may as well play him back in midfield for all it's worth.

 

Which is what I've been saying, so wondering why you're quoting me. I'm one of the few not on his back. I just want that to be clear.

[Guest Li3nZ]

Whey hey, football manager.....

 

At least some common sense is now appearing as some people have realised Smith can't be judged as a midfielder. He obviously shouldn't be judged on goals scored either.  The fact is the team has looked better in almost every game where he's played as a striker, inidicating he must be doing something for the team. I realise this can't show up in statistics though, so that's some people well and truly knackered when it comes to judging a footballer.

 

Anyway, it's too early for a thread like this.

 

I think everyone is being extremely harsh on Smith, and if basing judgement on the games he has played up front, means a lot here are very short sighted when it comes to analysing his performances. Scoring goals is critical as a team, but not everything when judging an individual player. Smith has never been the player to bang in 20 plus goals, someone next to him needs to do that. Anyone who has played football or understands the game can quite clearly see that when we have played Smith in an attacking role we have looked much better going forward. Against Arsenal he was immense, he wins and retains about 95% of balls punted / passed into his chest, feet, body, or winning it with his head, he holds the ball up and lays it off or retains posession until he has support. He's the sort of player that can link midfield to attack.

 

Improving his goal tally is obviously important but that's not what his game is all about, if you expect this from him then you may as well play him back in midfield for all it's worth.

 

Which is what I've been saying, so wondering why you're quoting me. I'm one of the few not on his back. I just want that to be clear.

 

Yeah, I quoted the wrong message box... Noticed afterwards then forgot to change.

[Howaythelads]

Aye, I thought so but I wanted it to be clear.

[Howaythelads]

To the stats types obsessed with transfer fees....It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m. I'll say it again. It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m, the same as it doesn't matter that other players may have been brought in on a free. Someone not good enough doesn't become good enough because they were free. Someone good enough doesn't become shit because they cost £6m. You don't judge the quality of a footballer by his transfer fee, you judge a footballer by watching matches and determining their attributes.

 

I didn't think I'd read anything so boring and stupid in my life as stats people judging a striker on goals scored, when that striker has been utililsed mainly out of position in midfield.  As if that wasn't stupid enough, it now seems that judging whether someone is good or not is based on the transfer fee. Hilarious stuff.

[Unbelievable]

To the stats types obsessed with transfer fees....It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m. I'll say it again. It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m, the same as it doesn't matter that other players may have been brought in on a free. Someone not good enough doesn't become good enough because they were free. Someone good enough doesn't become s*** because they cost £6m. You don't judge the quality of a footballer by his transfer fee, you judge a footballer by watching matches and determining their attributes.

 

I didn't think I'd read anything so boring and stupid in my life as stats people judging a striker on goals scored, when that striker has been utililsed mainly out of position in midfield.  As if that wasn't stupid enough, it now seems that judging whether someone is good or not is based on the transfer fee. Hilarious stuff.

 

You present your opinion as if it were a fact. I think it´s complete nonsense. Of course a player´s transfer fee needs to be weighed in when rating their signing. N´Zogbia was a very good piece of business, partly because we found him on the cheap before other people realised his potential. Would he have been a good signing if we had paid Le Havre 30 million? Didn´t think so..

[Taylor Swift]

That's true HTL, but there's also the concept of value for money. Someone like Sibierski proved to be very valuable for the money and wages we spent on him. On the other hand, someone like Owen has not. Of course, anyone who makes this comparison is not saying Sibs is better than Owen, they're just saying that he proved to very valuable for the money we spent whilst Owen hasn't. This concept is used by every human being in every single day. When you decide which car to get, you obviously know that a Ferrari is better than a Toyota but maybe it isn't going to prove to be valuable (subjective analysis) to you compared with the Toyota, and that's why you'd make the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth it to spend money on the Ferrari.

 

Using that same concept, it's quite logical that many people have said that Smith has not been worth £6m. They're not saying he's shit, they're just saying he's not a £6m player because of his contribution to the team so far. I expected more goals and definitely a better all-round game from a £6m guy. He's average in almost all areas and really shit in the one area that all strikers are eventually judged by. We're a team struggling for goals atm and him being shot-shy isn't helping. His link-up play seems to be special but that's because it's been years since we've seen some good holding up play from a striker. It's like having a home-made burger after having not eaten for 2 days - anything's gonna taste good at that point because you're so damn hungry. Same thing with Smith's holding up ability.

 

PS. All imo obviously.

[Unbelievable]

That's true HTL, but there's also the concept of value for money. Someone like Sibierski proved to be very valuable for the money and wages we spent on him. On the other hand, someone like Owen has not. Of course, anyone who makes this comparison is not saying Sibs is better than Owen, they're just saying that he proved to very valuable for the money we spent whilst Owen hasn't. This concept is used by every human being in every single day. When you decide which car to get, you obviously know that a Ferrari is better than a Toyota but maybe it isn't going to prove to be valuable (subjective analysis) to you compared with the Toyota, and that's why you'd make the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth it to spend money on the Ferrari.

 

Using that same concept, it's quite logical that many people have said that Smith has not been worth £6m. They're not saying he's s***, they're just saying he's not a £6m player because of his contribution to the team so far. I expected more goals and definitely a better all-round game from a £6m guy. He's average in almost all areas and really s*** in the one area that all strikers are eventually judged by. We're a team struggling for goals atm and him being shot-shy isn't helping. His link-up play seems to be special but that's because it's been years since we've seen some good holding up play from a striker. It's like having a home-made burger after having not eaten for 2 days - anything's gonna taste good at that point because you're so damn hungry. Same thing with Smith's holding up ability.

 

PS. All imo obviously.

 

Couldn´t have put it better myself (God knows I tried.. )

[ElDiablo]

That's true HTL, but there's also the concept of value for money. Someone like Sibierski proved to be very valuable for the money and wages we spent on him. On the other hand, someone like Owen has not. Of course, anyone who makes this comparison is not saying Sibs is better than Owen, they're just saying that he proved to very valuable for the money we spent whilst Owen hasn't. This concept is used by every human being in every single day. When you decide which car to get, you obviously know that a Ferrari is better than a Toyota but maybe it isn't going to prove to be valuable (subjective analysis) to you compared with the Toyota, and that's why you'd make the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth it to spend money on the Ferrari.

 

Using that same concept, it's quite logical that many people have said that Smith has not been worth £6m. They're not saying he's shit, they're just saying he's not a £6m player because of his contribution to the team so far. I expected more goals and definitely a better all-round game from a £6m guy. He's average in almost all areas and really shit in the one area that all strikers are eventually judged by. We're a team struggling for goals atm and him being shot-shy isn't helping. His link-up play seems to be special but that's because it's been years since we've seen some good holding up play from a striker. It's like having a home-made burger after having not eaten for 2 days - anything's gonna taste good at that point because you're so damn hungry. Same thing with Smith's holding up ability.

 

PS. All imo obviously.

 

 

My feelings on Smith summed up, bang on.

[Parky]

With 5 as average:

 

Beye - 10

Smith - 7

Barton - 7

Geremi - 4

Faye - 7 

Viduka - 5

Cacapa - 6

Rozehnal - 6

Enrique - 9

 

 

[Guest Li3nZ]

To those expecting more goals from Smith: Are these expectations in paralell with his position playing in midfield, or did you expect more from the odd game he has played up front? Not think it's a bit early to write him offas someone who can't score?

[Unbelievable]

To those expecting more goals from Smith: Are these expectations in paralell with his position playing in midfield, or did you expect more from the odd game he has played up front? Not think it's a bit early to write him offas someone who can't score?

 

Seeing as he seems totally unable to move into potential goalscoring positions or create such opportunities for himself I don´t think his possible lucidity in front of goal will serve him very often, if he even has it, of which there is very, very little evidence.

[Guest]

To those expecting more goals from Smith: Are these expectations in paralell with his position playing in midfield, or did you expect more from the odd game he has played up front? Not think it's a bit early to write him offas someone who can't score?

 

He's never been a goalscorer even when used up-front at Leeds so don't see why that will change. With Owen up-front I think he can get away with it, a la Heskey, but with Martins, neither are natural goalscorers. I know Martins has 7 but he's not a like Owen in that when you get one chance fall to you in the box, you're confident he'll score it.

[Howaythelads]

To the stats types obsessed with transfer fees....It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m. I'll say it again. It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m, the same as it doesn't matter that other players may have been brought in on a free. Someone not good enough doesn't become good enough because they were free. Someone good enough doesn't become s*** because they cost £6m. You don't judge the quality of a footballer by his transfer fee, you judge a footballer by watching matches and determining their attributes.

 

I didn't think I'd read anything so boring and stupid in my life as stats people judging a striker on goals scored, when that striker has been utililsed mainly out of position in midfield.  As if that wasn't stupid enough, it now seems that judging whether someone is good or not is based on the transfer fee. Hilarious stuff.

 

You present your opinion as if it were a fact. I think it´s complete nonsense. Of course a player´s transfer fee needs to be weighed in when rating their signing. N´Zogbia was a very good piece of business, partly because we found him on the cheap before other people realised his potential. Would he have been a good signing if we had paid Le Havre 30 million? Didn´t think so..

 

You can misinterpret the "presentation" of my posts as you like.

 

Anyone with half a brain will understand I'm offering an opinion and that like everyone else when they post their opinion, it's true I believe what I write. Why else would I write something?  Are you admitting that when you post you don't actually believe what you're writing? It's a fact that I think you post rubbish, but I hadn't realised you thought so too.

 

By the way, "good business" is a different subject. Smith can be overpriced and so be poor business at £6m, but he can still be a decent player for our team. I doubt you'll understand that either.

[Taylor Swift]

To those expecting more goals from Smith: Are these expectations in paralell with his position playing in midfield, or did you expect more from the odd game he has played up front? Not think it's a bit early to write him offas someone who can't score?

 

For me, I've only focused on the times he's played up front. Just look at yesterday, he did not even take one shot (iirc)!! That's pitiful from a so-called front man. He needs to get into dangerous positions. Again, not once did he do that yesterday. And I'm not judging him on this one game, it's been many games now that he's not been able to get into goalscoring positions and on the rarest of occasions that he does, he's very very reluctant to actually pull the trigger. He's not got the confidence in his shooting abilities atm and that's a very big problem. Just look at Viduka yesterday, was on for only 10 mins and got into a very dangerous position (the freekick that Roz hit back across goal). Smith doesn't pose enough of a goal threat which is probably why defenders have been able to focus more on Martins and our wingers (notice the double team of Milner/Zog on the left). This combined with the fact that we don't have anyone who can strike the ball outside the penalty area means it's becoming quite easy to defend against us.

 

Just look at the last 8 goals we've scored. 2 from pens, 2 own goals, 2 from set pieces and only two from open play. One of the open play ones was actually our central defender hanging around in the opposition's penalty area and the other was a fluke cross from Milner. That just shows how we've been struggling for goals lately and why I think Smith should be able to do better. And he can as well, he's shown it for Leeds in the past. Just needs to find his goalscoring form and become consistent. Not too much to ask for though, is it?

[Unbelievable]

To the stats types obsessed with transfer fees....It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m. I'll say it again. It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m, the same as it doesn't matter that other players may have been brought in on a free. Someone not good enough doesn't become good enough because they were free. Someone good enough doesn't become s*** because they cost £6m. You don't judge the quality of a footballer by his transfer fee, you judge a footballer by watching matches and determining their attributes.

 

I didn't think I'd read anything so boring and stupid in my life as stats people judging a striker on goals scored, when that striker has been utililsed mainly out of position in midfield.  As if that wasn't stupid enough, it now seems that judging whether someone is good or not is based on the transfer fee. Hilarious stuff.

 

You present your opinion as if it were a fact. I think it´s complete nonsense. Of course a player´s transfer fee needs to be weighed in when rating their signing. N´Zogbia was a very good piece of business, partly because we found him on the cheap before other people realised his potential. Would he have been a good signing if we had paid Le Havre 30 million? Didn´t think so..

 

You can misinterpret the "presentation" of my posts as you like.

 

Anyone with half a brain will understand I'm offering an opinion and that like everyone else when they post their opinion, it's true I believe what I write. Why else would I write something?  Are you admitting that when you post you don't actually believe what you're writing? It's a fact that I think you post rubbish, but I hadn't realised you thought so too.

 

By the way, "good business" is a different subject. Smith can overpriced and so be poor business at £6m, but he can still be a decent player for our team. I doubt you'll understand that either.

 

I understand it but I just don't see it. Anyway, it's quite pityful you need to resort to abuse again..

[Howaythelads]

To the stats types obsessed with transfer fees....It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m. I'll say it again. It doesn't matter that Smith cost £6m, the same as it doesn't matter that other players may have been brought in on a free. Someone not good enough doesn't become good enough because they were free. Someone good enough doesn't become s*** because they cost £6m. You don't judge the quality of a footballer by his transfer fee, you judge a footballer by watching matches and determining their attributes.

 

I didn't think I'd read anything so boring and stupid in my life as stats people judging a striker on goals scored, when that striker has been utililsed mainly out of position in midfield.  As if that wasn't stupid enough, it now seems that judging whether someone is good or not is based on the transfer fee. Hilarious stuff.

 

You present your opinion as if it were a fact. I think it´s complete nonsense. Of course a player´s transfer fee needs to be weighed in when rating their signing. N´Zogbia was a very good piece of business, partly because we found him on the cheap before other people realised his potential. Would he have been a good signing if we had paid Le Havre 30 million? Didn´t think so..

 

You can misinterpret the "presentation" of my posts as you like.

 

Anyone with half a brain will understand I'm offering an opinion and that like everyone else when they post their opinion, it's true I believe what I write. Why else would I write something?  Are you admitting that when you post you don't actually believe what you're writing? It's a fact that I think you post rubbish, but I hadn't realised you thought so too.

 

By the way, "good business" is a different subject. Smith can overpriced and so be poor business at £6m, but he can still be a decent player for our team. I doubt you'll understand that either.

 

I understand it but I just don't see it. Anyway, it's quite pityful you need to resort to abuse again..

 

Eh?  Abuse? Where's the abuse?

 

Your sensitivity is pitiful....

 

[Howaythelads]

That's true HTL, but there's also the concept of value for money. Someone like Sibierski proved to be very valuable for the money and wages we spent on him. On the other hand, someone like Owen has not. Of course, anyone who makes this comparison is not saying Sibs is better than Owen, they're just saying that he proved to very valuable for the money we spent whilst Owen hasn't. This concept is used by every human being in every single day. When you decide which car to get, you obviously know that a Ferrari is better than a Toyota but maybe it isn't going to prove to be valuable (subjective analysis) to you compared with the Toyota, and that's why you'd make the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth it to spend money on the Ferrari.

 

Using that same concept, it's quite logical that many people have said that Smith has not been worth £6m. They're not saying he's s***, they're just saying he's not a £6m player because of his contribution to the team so far. I expected more goals and definitely a better all-round game from a £6m guy. He's average in almost all areas and really s*** in the one area that all strikers are eventually judged by. We're a team struggling for goals atm and him being shot-shy isn't helping. His link-up play seems to be special but that's because it's been years since we've seen some good holding up play from a striker. It's like having a home-made burger after having not eaten for 2 days - anything's gonna taste good at that point because you're so damn hungry. Same thing with Smith's holding up ability.

 

PS. All imo obviously.

 

Couldn´t have put it better myself (God knows I tried.. )

 

mackems.gif

 

You've been posting something entirely different to Apisith.....

 

[Howaythelads]

To those expecting more goals from Smith: Are these expectations in paralell with his position playing in midfield, or did you expect more from the odd game he has played up front? Not think it's a bit early to write him offas someone who can't score?

 

He's never been a goalscorer even when used up-front at Leeds so don't see why that will change. With Owen up-front I think he can get away with it, a la Heskey, but with Martins, neither are natural goalscorers. I know Martins has 7 but he's not a like Owen in that when you get one chance fall to you in the box, you're confident he'll score it.

 

I think he chipped in with a decent number of goals when he was a young player at Leeds and given decent service. He can do that again. It's about creativity in the team and his own confidence in front of goal, as said by Apisith and is something else you haven't said. It doesn't happen overnight.

[gazza ladra]

Graded on a curve:

 

Beye: 8

Cacapa: 7

Smith: 6

Faye: 6

Barton: 5 [Reckon he will be at the top at season's end]

Rozehnal: 5

Enrique: 4

Geremi: 4

Viduka: 3

 

 

 

 

[Guest Pie]

To those expecting more goals from Smith: Are these expectations in paralell with his position playing in midfield, or did you expect more from the odd game he has played up front? Not think it's a bit early to write him offas someone who can't score?

His game has never been about that really. Also depends whether the plebs we have in midfield can create anything of any note on a monthly basis (game by game is well beyond them).

[Unbelievable]

That's true HTL, but there's also the concept of value for money. Someone like Sibierski proved to be very valuable for the money and wages we spent on him. On the other hand, someone like Owen has not. Of course, anyone who makes this comparison is not saying Sibs is better than Owen, they're just saying that he proved to very valuable for the money we spent whilst Owen hasn't. This concept is used by every human being in every single day. When you decide which car to get, you obviously know that a Ferrari is better than a Toyota but maybe it isn't going to prove to be valuable (subjective analysis) to you compared with the Toyota, and that's why you'd make the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth it to spend money on the Ferrari.

 

Using that same concept, it's quite logical that many people have said that Smith has not been worth £6m. They're not saying he's s***, they're just saying he's not a £6m player because of his contribution to the team so far. I expected more goals and definitely a better all-round game from a £6m guy. He's average in almost all areas and really s*** in the one area that all strikers are eventually judged by. We're a team struggling for goals atm and him being shot-shy isn't helping. His link-up play seems to be special but that's because it's been years since we've seen some good holding up play from a striker. It's like having a home-made burger after having not eaten for 2 days - anything's gonna taste good at that point because you're so damn hungry. Same thing with Smith's holding up ability.

 

PS. All imo obviously.

 

Couldn´t have put it better myself (God knows I tried.. )

 

mackems.gif

 

You've been posting something entirely different to Apisith.....

 

 

Maybe you should learn to read..

[Howaythelads]

That's true HTL, but there's also the concept of value for money. Someone like Sibierski proved to be very valuable for the money and wages we spent on him. On the other hand, someone like Owen has not. Of course, anyone who makes this comparison is not saying Sibs is better than Owen, they're just saying that he proved to very valuable for the money we spent whilst Owen hasn't. This concept is used by every human being in every single day. When you decide which car to get, you obviously know that a Ferrari is better than a Toyota but maybe it isn't going to prove to be valuable (subjective analysis) to you compared with the Toyota, and that's why you'd make the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth it to spend money on the Ferrari.

 

Using that same concept, it's quite logical that many people have said that Smith has not been worth £6m. They're not saying he's s***, they're just saying he's not a £6m player because of his contribution to the team so far. I expected more goals and definitely a better all-round game from a £6m guy. He's average in almost all areas and really s*** in the one area that all strikers are eventually judged by. We're a team struggling for goals atm and him being shot-shy isn't helping. His link-up play seems to be special but that's because it's been years since we've seen some good holding up play from a striker. It's like having a home-made burger after having not eaten for 2 days - anything's gonna taste good at that point because you're so damn hungry. Same thing with Smith's holding up ability.

 

PS. All imo obviously.

 

Couldn´t have put it better myself (God knows I tried.. )

 

mackems.gif

 

You've been posting something entirely different to Apisith.....

 

 

Maybe you should learn to read..

 

Hmm, what a terrible thing to suggest.  "it's quite pityful you need to resort to abuse again.."

[Taylor Swift]

To those expecting more goals from Smith: Are these expectations in paralell with his position playing in midfield, or did you expect more from the odd game he has played up front? Not think it's a bit early to write him offas someone who can't score?

 

He's never been a goalscorer even when used up-front at Leeds so don't see why that will change. With Owen up-front I think he can get away with it, a la Heskey, but with Martins, neither are natural goalscorers. I know Martins has 7 but he's not a like Owen in that when you get one chance fall to you in the box, you're confident he'll score it.

 

I think he chipped in with a decent number of goals when he was a young player at Leeds and given decent service. He can do that again. It's about creativity in the team and his own confidence in front of goal. It doesn't happen overnight.

 

blueyes.gif

 

Smith can be a very useful player to us because of the attributes that he possesses(a bit of pace, aggression, passion, some holding up ability, a 'defending from the front' attitude amongst a few other useful things). Though he's never going to be a star, he can certainly help other players like Zoggy, Emre and Owen shine. He just needs to be more consistent and needs some help from Allardyce as well.

[Howaythelads]

To those expecting more goals from Smith: Are these expectations in paralell with his position playing in midfield, or did you expect more from the odd game he has played up front? Not think it's a bit early to write him offas someone who can't score?

 

He's never been a goalscorer even when used up-front at Leeds so don't see why that will change. With Owen up-front I think he can get away with it, a la Heskey, but with Martins, neither are natural goalscorers. I know Martins has 7 but he's not a like Owen in that when you get one chance fall to you in the box, you're confident he'll score it.

 

I think he chipped in with a decent number of goals when he was a young player at Leeds and given decent service. He can do that again. It's about creativity in the team and his own confidence in front of goal. It doesn't happen overnight.

 

blueyes.gif

 

Smith can be a very useful player to us because of the attributes that he possesses(a bit of pace, aggression, passion, some holding up ability, a 'defending from the front' attitude amongst a few other useful things). Though he's never going to be a star, he can certainly help other players like Zoggy, Emre and Owen shine. He just needs to be more consistent and needs some help from Allardyce as well.

 

Yup, that's it, really.