Did Derby really play well or....

[TRon]

will they get thumped again next match? The answer is no and yes respectively. Watching Derby for 30 mins in the 2nd half reminded me of someone commenting on seeing Mike Tyson on the dance floor - it was like watching an elephant trying to dance. here we had a bunch of no hope cloggers actually trying to play football (painful sight)  when we kept inexplicably giving them the ball. I don't think many teams will keep launching the ball high towards their big players like we did though. Shame we didn't just keep the ball on the floor and knock it around and watch them flounder like the clueless relegation fodder they are.

 

 

[Zero]

The core problem lies on Martins. Sam is playing whole pitch pressing but some lazy bastards didn't do their job and

let our midfield become exposed. Whole pitch pressing cannot be done without every player's commitment and as a result the pressing simply failed,

and let our midfield become Derby's heaven.

 

Remember the shot which Derby almost get 3-1 ahead?

Beye was helpless in that play because he is 1 on 2. Martins doesn't track back, fucking hell.

[Skeletor]

The core problem lies on Martins. Sam is playing whole pitch pressing but some lazy bastards didn't do their job and

let our midfield become exposed. Whole pitch pressing cannot be done without every player's commitment and as a result the pressing simply failed,

and let our midfield become Derby's heaven.

 

Remember the shot which Derby almost get 3-1 ahead?

Beye was helpless in that play because he is 1 on 2. Martins doesn't track back, f****** hell.

 

That could be because he's used to playing as a striker.

 

We didn't look anything resembling a balanced team until Milner was switched to the right, Duff came on to the left, Emre came on in the centre and Martins went up front. No surprises.

[johnnypd]

derby were shit in the first-half, just defended. 2nd half they were well on top, but we got back into it late on.

 

zero, martins isn't a right-winger, would you expect owen or viduka to do any better in the same position? you could make the same argument with N'Zogbia, he's not a left-back and while he looked threatening going forward, he left shit loads of space behind him which Derby attacked through the likes of barnes and pearson, far more than they went down our right.

[Kimbo]

Derby are still rubbish, it's just that our midfield is woeful and can't control a game.

[Unlucky Luque]

Their goalie was superb to be fair...

[Willow]

The core problem lies on Martins. Sam is playing whole pitch pressing but some lazy bastards didn't do their job and

let our midfield become exposed. Whole pitch pressing cannot be done without every player's commitment and as a result the pressing simply failed,

and let our midfield become Derby's heaven.

 

Remember the shot which Derby almost get 3-1 ahead?

Beye was helpless in that play because he is 1 on 2. Martins doesn't track back, fucking hell.

 

Well you can't pin too much blame on a striker out of position.

 

I think the main problem is still Left Back, is Enrique injured or just sorting himself out?

 

Once hes fit and has a long run of games then we could all relax a little more:

 

Enrique in means Zog put to LM

Zog in LM means balanced wings with James on RM

James in RM means Oba (or another striker) on the bench

 

Get back ASAP Enrique!

[TRon]

I don't mind seeing individuals having bad games but to see Given keep hoofing the ball high to give away hard won posession is mindless. Our whole approach in these matches seems to be to get into a physical battle with sub-standard teams which then gives them a fighting shot. The few times we actually put our foot on the ball and did string a few passes together we looked far better players.

[Zero]

 

That could be because he's used to playing as a striker.

 

We didn't look anything resembling a balanced team until Milner was switched to the right, Duff came on to the left, Emre came on in the centre and Martins went up front. No surprises.

 

Well, I agree, but the point is, at the very least, and I am 100% sure Fat Sam has done, is to ask Martins "please track back and help our defense"

 

If he didn't do that he must be fired, and I simply don't believe Fat Sam will commit such kinda error---in Bolton even Diouf the wanker has to track back.

 

So the fault of Fat Sam is, he doesn't have the ball to drop Martins. He wants to keep Charles, James and Obefami all happy and make such kinda unbalanced team.

 

But of course if I said "drop Martins" people here will fire me down to the hell.

[tmonkey]

Beye was helpless in that play because he is 1 on 2. Martins doesn't track back, f****** hell.

 

Because hes not a midfielder?

 

Blaming everything on Martins is ridiculous. Hes far from perfect and it pisses me off how hes blessed with natural pace but doesnt know how to use it, but at least half the side were shit today.

 

I want to know what is up with Nicky Butt. Hes meant to be an anchor midfielder protecting the defence, yet every time someone runs at the defence from midfield, hes nowhere to be seen. Where is the positional sense that hes meant to excel at? And not to mention his piss poor consistency when it comes to passing - sometimes his first time passing is quality, other times he does nothing but pass it straight to the opposition.

 

And although Barton is a talented player, he was so fucking slow today it was unreal. Both mentally and physically. I hope this is just him taking time to get fully match fit, hes been back for a while now so one has to ask how long it takes for a player to get back into the groove.

 

Rozehnal was the biggest culprit today. Poor in the air, panics under pressure, poor passing, weak and easily brushed aside - he never looked promising from the start, so theres nothing to suggest that hes a much better player who is merely going through a rough time. Cacapa made a few mistakes, but at least he looks a class act the rest of the time - the same just cant be said about Rozehnal.

[johnnypd]

 

That could be because he's used to playing as a striker.

 

We didn't look anything resembling a balanced team until Milner was switched to the right, Duff came on to the left, Emre came on in the centre and Martins went up front. No surprises.

 

Well, I agree, but the point is, at the very least, and I am 100% sure Fat Sam has done, is to ask Martins "please track back and help our defense"

 

If he didn't do that he must be fired, and I simply don't believe Fat Sam will commit such kinda error---in Bolton even Diouf the wanker has to track back.

 

So the fault of Fat Sam is, he doesn't have the ball to drop Martins. He wants to keep Charles, James and Obefami all happy and make such kinda unbalanced team.

 

But of course if I said "drop Martins" people here will fire me down to the hell.

 

i agree that martins doesn't track back enough, but then he's not a midfielder he's a centre-forward! but i'm not sure why you're pinpointing this weakness from today, derby came down our left side far more than down our right. barnes, pearson and howard all had forays down there, whereas lewis tended to be restricted to crosses from deep which suggests that beye and martins did better than n'zogbia and milner.

[hakka]

will they get thumped again next match? The answer is no and yes respectively. Watching Derby for 30 mins in the 2nd half reminded me of someone commenting on seeing Mike Tyson on the dance floor - it was like watching an elephant trying to dance. here we had a bunch of no hope cloggers actually trying to play football (painful sight)  when we kept inexplicably giving them the ball. I don't think many teams will keep launching the ball high towards their big players like we did though. Shame we didn't just keep the ball on the floor and knock it around and watch them flounder like the clueless relegation fodder they are.

 

 

 

When Derby got the goal they got belief and the more we tried to force the game the easier Derby found it to get physical and catch us on the counter.  In the second half Derby could have scored a few.  I think they went in to this game believing that if they got one in early they could mess us up.  Paul Jewell is no fool and must have said the right things at half time as Derby came back out and put us under pressure even more and got the early second half goal.  The Newcastle players have suffered problems with confidence and form of late and it was the time for Derby to get us if there was one.  Can't see them beating Liverpool at home.

[Zero]

derby were s*** in the first-half, just defended. 2nd half they were well on top, but we got back into it late on.

 

zero, martins isn't a right-winger, would you expect owen or viduka to do any better in the same position? you could make the same argument with N'Zogbia, he's not a left-back and while he looked threatening going forward, he left s*** loads of space behind him which Derby attacked through the likes of barnes and pearson, far more than they went down our right.

 

You can see our pressing was much better in the first half, but very bad in second. Watch the game again,

Butt, Smith and Barton also did it during the start of second half, but they realized something's missing, the pressing wasn't effective and so they stopped.

 

And what makes our pressing effective again is when Duff comes in and restore our midfield in 4 players, with Milner back to the right.

Face it, Martins has to bear the blame. And playing out of position doesn't mean no defense is required. What kind of logic is that? Smith is playing out of position much of the time but there's even not a second in his game that he isn't defending.

 

The best solution is drop Martins, he contributes nothing this season with just a few close range lucky goals. Bring back Duff and play Milner on the right and lets see how our pressing performs.

 

[johnnypd]

if that was the problem then how come derby didn't do much down our right but had a field day down the left?

 

it's not an excuse for martins to say he's out of position, it's a fact, you wouldn't expect viduka or owen do do any better would you? smith has played in midfield on and off for almost 3 years and up front all he does is battle anyway so it is no suprise that's all he does in midfield too.

[TRon]

It doesn't matter what formation you use if you are going to play a game which suits your opponents and allows them more possession than they would get in a month against sides who can pass and move. For me we had too many players like Barton, Butt and Smith who just ended up getting in a tussle all afternoon. We sank to the level of the Derby troglodytes and it is just so frustrating to watch it happen over and over...

 

 

 

 

[DJ_NUFC]

Incredible. People blaming Martins.

 

This board gets more and more ridiculous after each ridiculous result.

[johnnypd]

It doesn't matter what formation you use if you are going to play a game which suits your opponents and allows them more possession than they would get in a month against sides who can pass and move. For me we had too many players like Barton, Butt and Smith who just ended up getting in a tussle all afternoon. We sank to the level of the Derby troglodytes and it is just so frustrating to watch it happen over and over...

 

 

 

 

 

agree, reduce a game to a physical contest and suddenly we lose any advantage we'd normally have over shite cloggers like derby. crying out for a bit of class in the middle, even emre, average as he is, made a difference.

[Zero]

 

i agree that martins doesn't track back enough, but then he's not a midfielder he's a centre-forward! but i'm not sure why you're pinpointing this weakness from today, derby came down our left side far more than down our right. barnes, pearson and howard all had forays down there, whereas lewis tended to be restricted to crosses from deep which suggests that beye and martins did better than n'zogbia and milner.

 

So that's why I said, drop him.

 

The reason is because our defense collapses from the right first.

Easy, just think, right midfield exposed, Smith and Barton are going to cover the right, and then left side exposed and Derby start attacking there.

 

Sam's defense quality is largely depends on pressing. If this fails then our defense simply collapses and that's why I am singling out Martins.

We cannot have anyone on the pitch that isn't fully committed to the pressing.

 

Just three points and you will understand the importance of pressing

1. The pressing is excellent versus Arsenal, you can see the difference.

2. That's the true value of Sam, the reason why Bolton's defense was so good despit having many shit but committed players.

3. During SBR era we also play this kinda defense, did anyone realize this?

[Taylor Swift]

Someone said it in another thread, maybe it was even you Big Tron, but we let them play today. We've let many teams play this season (Reading, Sunderland, Derby etc.) and it's cost us a lot of points. For starters, we'd be in the top 6 if we won away at Derby and won today. We let them play today but hoofing it long at every opportunity. I was dying to see how Derby would defend if Shay had decided to pass the ball to one of his fullbacks instead of hoofing it up. Honestly, it was desperation football, and that might have been why the stats showed that we had 25 or so shots on target.

[Zero]

Because hes not a midfielder?

 

Blaming everything on Martins is ridiculous. Hes far from perfect and it pisses me off how hes blessed with natural pace but doesnt know how to use it, but at least half the side were s*** today.

 

I want to know what is up with Nicky Butt. Hes meant to be an anchor midfielder protecting the defence, yet every time someone runs at the defence from midfield, hes nowhere to be seen. Where is the positional sense that hes meant to excel at? And not to mention his piss poor consistency when it comes to passing - sometimes his first time passing is quality, other times he does nothing but pass it straight to the opposition.

 

And although Barton is a talented player, he was so f****** slow today it was unreal. Both mentally and physically. I hope this is just him taking time to get fully match fit, hes been back for a while now so one has to ask how long it takes for a player to get back into the groove.

 

Rozehnal was the biggest culprit today. Poor in the air, panics under pressure, poor passing, weak and easily brushed aside - he never looked promising from the start, so theres nothing to suggest that hes a much better player who is merely going through a rough time. Cacapa made a few mistakes, but at least he looks a class act the rest of the time - the same just cant be said about Rozehnal.

 

No disagreement on Rozehnal. He is finished.

 

Butt's positioning is good actually, but if we are playing pressing game like this, Butt simply cannot remain on his own position.

Still remember when Speed was here, playing Butt's position?

A lot of people were blaming that his positioning was problematic,

and the true reason is SBR was also playing this kinda tactics.

 

Am I the only one who support restoring the pressing tactics?

[Ronaldo]

Incredible. People blaming Martins.

 

This board gets more and more ridiculous after each ridiculous result.

 

the cunts coming out of the ground as just as bad, Martins is shit this, no.9 that

 

Smith looks as dangerous as an empty bathtub, but people overlook it, cunts

[johnnypd]

 

i agree that martins doesn't track back enough, but then he's not a midfielder he's a centre-forward! but i'm not sure why you're pinpointing this weakness from today, derby came down our left side far more than down our right. barnes, pearson and howard all had forays down there, whereas lewis tended to be restricted to crosses from deep which suggests that beye and martins did better than n'zogbia and milner.

 

So that's why I said, drop him.

 

The reason is because our defense collapses from the right first.

Easy, just think, right midfield exposed, Smith and Barton are going to cover the right, and then left side exposed and Derby start attacking there.

 

Sam's defense quality is largely depends on pressing. If this fails then our defense simply collapses and that's why I am singling out Martins.

We cannot have anyone on the pitch that isn't fully committed to the pressing.

 

Just three points and you will understand the importance of pressing

1. The pressing is excellent versus Arsenal, you can see the difference.

2. That's the true value of Sam, the reason why Bolton's defense was so good despit having many shit but committed players.

3. During SBR era we also play this kinda defense, did anyone realize this?

 

well sure, i'd drop martins from right-wing as that's not his positon. wouldn't boot him out of the team tho, i'd put him up front. i think it's a bit tenuous to say the midfield shuffled from left to right (tho i get your point and im sure some of that did happen), milner seemed to stick out wide and i don't recall derby switching it every time they got the ball, but were pretty direct.

[TRon]

Someone said it in another thread, maybe it was even you Big Tron, but we let them play today. We've let many teams play this season (Reading, Sunderland, Derby etc.) and it's cost us a lot of points. For starters, we'd be in the top 6 if we won away at Derby and won today. We let them play today but hoofing it long at every opportunity. I was dying to see how Derby would defend if Shay had decided to pass the ball to one of his fullbacks instead of hoofing it up. Honestly, it was desperation football, and that might have been why the stats showed that we had 25 or so shots on target.

 

Well, is it really a concidence that championship sides suddenly look much better when they play against us? Then we have to listen to tv commentators exclaiming how remarkable that Derby are doing so badly when they play as well as this!

 

The truth is we keep resorting to percentage football against sides that just need to be spanked with good attacking football on the floor. Their two centre backs were probably the slowest and most stupid defenders in the top two divisions but we couldn't exploit that because we were too busy looking for route one which they enjoyed immensely bless 'em.

 

 

[hakka]

 

The truth is we keep resorting to percentage football against sides that just need to be spanked with good attacking football on the floor. Their two centre backs were probably the slowest and most stupid defenders in the top two divisions but we couldn't exploit that because we were too busy looking for route one which they enjoyed immensely bless 'em.

 

agreed...

[Taylor Swift]

Someone said it in another thread, maybe it was even you Big Tron, but we let them play today. We've let many teams play this season (Reading, Sunderland, Derby etc.) and it's cost us a lot of points. For starters, we'd be in the top 6 if we won away at Derby and won today. We let them play today but hoofing it long at every opportunity. I was dying to see how Derby would defend if Shay had decided to pass the ball to one of his fullbacks instead of hoofing it up. Honestly, it was desperation football, and that might have been why the stats showed that we had 25 or so shots on target.

 

Well, is it really a concidence that championship sides suddenly look much better when they play against us? Then we have to listen to tv commentators exclaiming how remarkable that Derby are doing so badly when they play as well as this!

 

The truth is we keep resorting to percentage football against sides that just need to be spanked with good attacking football on the floor. Their two centre backs were probably the slowest and most stupid defenders in the top two divisions but we couldn't exploit that because we were too busy looking for route one which they enjoyed immensely bless 'em.