Which of our players are good enough to help us finish top six?

[fredbob]

Alan Smith....

 

hahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I know Martins has got a lot of votes but i think he must be seriously underrated not to get more, some big big clubs have been linked with him yet there are still some of us who dont think he's top 6 material.

 

Surely it cant be a case of us knowing more than the said big clubs - Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Juventus, Man Utd who've all been linked with him at one opint or another?

 

 

Which of those clubs have bid for him though? 'Linked' means nothing. That applies to any player btw.

 

Fair point. Also i imagine that most of the club wanted him as a back up striker. As opposed to there main one.

[Rich]

All of them apart from one or two, the problem at the moment is that everyone is out of form and playing below the standard they're capable of. That is something the manager has to sort out.

 

This is my take on things as well. I can't believe there are some people who think we're something like 10 new signings away from being able to finish top six! Realism is not on the agenda, it would seem.

 

A few quality signings in the right positions could help drag us out of the mire that we're currently in, but Allardyce has the biggest role to play in picking the "right" teams and formations.

 

A few quality signings would be a step in the right direction but our midfield needs work, Viduka and Owen will just get slower and Martins wont improve.

 

Geremi, Smith, Butt and Milner are all decent players but not of sufficiently high standard and severely lacking in pace. Emre has some class but just isnt cutting it. Duff may re-discover his Chelsea form but thats a big if. The jury is still out on Barton (sic).

 

What i dont get is the fact that people on the one hand are prepared to say that players arent good enough after watching a match, then say that they all have potential to be better. I'm going on the evidence of their ability to control the ball under pressure and find a man with a decent pass. Those skills have nothing to do with tactics or formations.

 

Wouldn't entirely agree with that last bit, but I see what you're saying. I'm of the view that we're probably 3 new regular starters in the first team away from seeing an improvement in our play, making us a better team and reducing the effect that pressure has on our side. There's a lot more wrong with us than the ability to hold the ball/pass the ball, we have no pace or off the ball movement of any kind either, so it's a bit of a catch-22 situation. Last season Scott Parker would get continually savaged for keeping the ball and not releasing it, but most times he just didn't have a viable option for a pass that wasn't "high-risk". This is a lad who has obviously been coached to keep the ball, first and foremost, and the only way he could do that here was to keep it himself.

 

He got berated for not having the passing ability of a Beckham or a Riqueleme, still two players who don't hit every pass they make.

 

I realise that's a bit of a tangent, but to try and drag it back to my original point, three attacking players added to this squad who can bring a multitude of different facets to our game like pace, passing, off the ball movement, should open up games and allow our other players to start looking better. For the most part we don't have bad players, that's what people are saying, a lot of our players have looked brilliant elsewhere and suffered when they've arrived here - especially under the previous 3 managers.

 

I hate to harp on about the past, but like others have alluded to, if we could bring in Nobby Solano, Craig Bellamy and Laurent Robert all over again then we'd start to look the fucking business again. It's Allardyce's job to see this and to rectify it, and I hope that he signs at least 1 attacking player to get us excited. However, I'm happy enough with N'Zogbia/Duff on the LW, so we go from needing a Robert to needing a Dyer.

 

But asking for an overhaul of 6-10 players is unrealistic and ill-informed, in my eyes. I look at a team being a series of cogs in the overall machine, even just 1 quality player that "clicks" can be the difference between the team looking good and playing good football to things falling apart. For the can of worms it could open up, I never think we looked the same when Craig Bellamy used to miss games at his peak here, because he was absolutely instrumental to our play. We need some players like that to build the team around, more than anything.

 

2-3 is all it could take, if I just compare with Robson's strongest team again. The defence should be good enough, the player ability back there is as good as what we had under Robson (if not better) although some haven't settled yet and we keep getting injuries, the 'keeper is the same, the midfield definitely needs the most work as nothing we can cobble together holds a candle to Solano - Dyer - Speed - Robert. I genuinely think Viduka can be what Shearer was if you put better players around him and play to his strengths like we did with Big Al, and like I've said we could really do with a new Bellamy. Both Owen and Martins are too one-dimensional to play an effective role, for me.

[Rich]

To add to that last bit, and whisper it quietly, but Dirty Diouf could actually be the answer there.

[Baggio]

Perhaps you can now see why I kept on about replacing Dyer with a player of similar attributes back in the Summer, Janitor.

[ChezGiven]

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

Also, whilst agreeing players under previous managers have come here and not cut it, i'm failing to see members of our current squad who performed brilliantly elsewhere? (allowing for the impact of time and injuries on players like Owen of course).

 

Not sure what the average response has been to the poll but the results suggest that we have around 8 to 10 players up the job. That means we need at least another 6 players of similar or better quality.

[fredbob]

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

Also, whilst agreeing players under previous managers have come here and not cut it, i'm failing to see members of our current squad who performed brilliantly elsewhere? (allowing for the impact of time and injuries on players like Owen of course).

 

Not sure what the average response has been to the poll but the results suggest that we have around 8 to 10 players up the job. That means we need at least another 6 players of similar or better quality.

 

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

There are a lot of formations which can be adapted to allow for someones techinque and pace, like the diamond formation which utilises the attacking midfieders techiniqe. 451 wont work with a slow striker etc....

[Rich]

Perhaps you can now see why I kept on about replacing Dyer with a player of similar attributes back in the Summer, Janitor.

 

When I saw you browsing this thread, I knew you'd say something along those exact lines

 

If we're playing 4-4-2, then we could do with somebody with similar attributes to KD above what we currently have, aye, although he's not as missed as Bellamy, Robert, Speed or Solano in my book. In the summer the whole debate was centred around the 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation, and we both agreed then that Dyer wouldn't even be in the starting XI for either of us, along with Smith, as far as I recall. I think pace out wide and in one of the striking berths is more essential than it is in the middle of the park, still.

 

We don't necessarily need Dyer's pace again, I think a midfielder with the eye for a pass and some creativity about him would be as effective, if not more effective. In comparing with Robson's time, I was merely saying we need to be looking at getting a player in that position more than anything, rather than it being a carbon copy of Dyer. I didn't make that entirely clear though, looking back.

[ChezGiven]

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

Also, whilst agreeing players under previous managers have come here and not cut it, i'm failing to see members of our current squad who performed brilliantly elsewhere? (allowing for the impact of time and injuries on players like Owen of course).

 

Not sure what the average response has been to the poll but the results suggest that we have around 8 to 10 players up the job. That means we need at least another 6 players of similar or better quality.

 

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

There are a lot of formations which can be adapted to allow for someones techinque and pace, like the diamond formation which utilises the attacking midfieders techiniqe. 451 wont work with a slow striker etc....

 

A player's inherent skill and ability is dependent on which formation he plays in? Behave yourself.

[fredbob]

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

Also, whilst agreeing players under previous managers have come here and not cut it, i'm failing to see members of our current squad who performed brilliantly elsewhere? (allowing for the impact of time and injuries on players like Owen of course).

 

Not sure what the average response has been to the poll but the results suggest that we have around 8 to 10 players up the job. That means we need at least another 6 players of similar or better quality.

 

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

There are a lot of formations which can be adapted to allow for someones techinque and pace, like the diamond formation which utilises the attacking midfieders techiniqe. 451 wont work with a slow striker etc....

 

A player's inherent skill and ability is dependent on which formation he plays in? Behave yourself.

 

No, the other way round.

[ChezGiven]

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

Also, whilst agreeing players under previous managers have come here and not cut it, i'm failing to see members of our current squad who performed brilliantly elsewhere? (allowing for the impact of time and injuries on players like Owen of course).

 

Not sure what the average response has been to the poll but the results suggest that we have around 8 to 10 players up the job. That means we need at least another 6 players of similar or better quality.

 

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

There are a lot of formations which can be adapted to allow for someones techinque and pace, like the diamond formation which utilises the attacking midfieders techiniqe. 451 wont work with a slow striker etc....

 

A player's inherent skill and ability is dependent on which formation he plays in? Behave yourself.

 

No, the other way round.

 

What? Have you lost it?

 

I'm talking about natural ability. No idea what you are talking about.

[Rich]

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

Also, whilst agreeing players under previous managers have come here and not cut it, i'm failing to see members of our current squad who performed brilliantly elsewhere? (allowing for the impact of time and injuries on players like Owen of course).

 

Not sure what the average response has been to the poll but the results suggest that we have around 8 to 10 players up the job. That means we need at least another 6 players of similar or better quality.

 

It's the way I believe everything works, more than anything. The "Butterfly Effect" sort of thing, every action has a reaction, everything leads to something different... I think our players are shown up technically at times, especially at the back, because of the amount of pressure that they're under for the majority of games (you didn't mention pace at first, btw, you only said controlling the ball and picking a pass)... If we had better players up top to provide options for passes, drag defenders/midfielders around, keep the pressure on the opponents rather than the other way around (see Solano, Dyer, Bellamy as personifications of these three traits) then that immediately provides a platform for the rest of the team to step-up in their game. These lads are all professional footballers, many of them have come from places in the past where they've shown their ability with the ball at their feet and where I bet they could hold the ball/pick a pass with far more ease than they can here. Aye we're not a team full of Maradona's, but we're not full of cloggers either.

 

The Parker example is the best one I can think of, and I've explained that already. I'm not convinced that we have a squad of players who are technically shite, you only need to watch them in the warm-ups pre-game to see that the vast majority of them can play.

 

Of course pace is affected by formations, I never questioned that, but the ability to keep the ball/pass the ball isn't as simple as being completely controlled by natural ability. Of course it plays a massive role, but there are other factors like the fear of trying anything risky, the ability of their team-mates to find space, the way the manager lays the team out on the pitch (does he work with partnerships, does he give free roles, etc.) A lot more goes into the two things you mentioned than the natural ability of the player alone.

 

Viduka, Duff, Owen, Rozehnal, Cacapa, Barton are the names that immediately spring to mind, Nicky Butt also looked miles better at Man Utd than he has here, as well. All of them have come with good pedigree from good teams in their past (massive in some cases).

[Dokko]

Shay Given

Steve Harper

Habib Beye

Stephen Carr

Steven Taylor

Claudio Cacapa

David Rozehnal

Abdoulaye Faye

Jose Enrique

James Milner

Geremi

Alan Smith

Joey Barton

Nicky Butt

Emre

Charles N'Zogbia

Damien Duff

Mark Viduka

Michael Owen

Shola Ameobi

Obafemi Martins

 

All those in bold.

 

We just need more players to fill in the blanks imo.

 

One amazing CB to replace Cacapa & Rozy, one targetman type player to replace Shola, and a couple of creative midfeilders, possibly a right winger, most certainly central, and we'd be a top six team playing in 442 and the players in the right position.

[Baggio]

I can't remember what was said exactly, I just remember the conversation was roughly along those lines. I agree though that we're only a few players away and the rest will be down to Allardyce.

[ChezGiven]

How can an individual's technique and pace be related to a formation? You'll need to explain that one Rich.

 

Also, whilst agreeing players under previous managers have come here and not cut it, i'm failing to see members of our current squad who performed brilliantly elsewhere? (allowing for the impact of time and injuries on players like Owen of course).

 

Not sure what the average response has been to the poll but the results suggest that we have around 8 to 10 players up the job. That means we need at least another 6 players of similar or better quality.

 

It's the way I believe everything works, more than anything. The "Butterfly Effect" sort of thing, every action has a reaction, everything leads to something different... I think our players are shown up technically at times, especially at the back, because of the amount of pressure that they're under for the majority of games (you didn't mention pace at first, btw, you only said controlling the ball and picking a pass)... If we had better players up top to provide options for passes, drag defenders/midfielders around, keep the pressure on the opponents rather than the other way around (see Solano, Dyer, Bellamy as personifications of these three traits) then that immediately provides a platform for the rest of the team to step-up in their game. These lads are all professional footballers, many of them have come from places in the past where they've shown their ability with the ball at their feet and where I bet they could hold the ball/pick a pass with far more ease than they can here. Aye we're not a team full of Maradona's, but we're not full of cloggers either.

 

The Parker example is the best one I can think of, and I've explained that already. I'm not convinced that we have a squad of players who are technically shite, you only need to watch them in the warm-ups pre-game to see that the vast majority of them can play.

 

Of course pace is affected by formations, I never questioned that, but the ability to keep the ball/pass the ball isn't as simple as being completely controlled by natural ability. Of course it plays a massive role, but there are other factors like the fear of trying anything risky, the ability of their team-mates to find space, the way the manager lays the team out on the pitch (does he work with partnerships, does he give free roles, etc.) A lot more goes into the two things you mentioned than the natural ability of the player alone.

 

Viduka, Duff, Owen, Rozehnal, Cacapa, Barton are the names that immediately spring to mind, Nicky Butt also looked miles better at Man Utd than he has here, as well. All of them have come with good pedigree from good teams in their past (massive in some cases).

 

You cant polish a turd as they say.

 

I'll agree on the psychological point but Arsenal's technically superior players are only able to play the type of game they play because they can play one touch under pressure and find another man. If the ball spanners off the shin of Geremi or Smith, its because they are lacking in technique, not because they are playing 4-1-2-1-2.

[ChezGiven]

 

It's the way I believe everything works, more than anything. The "Butterfly Effect" sort of thing, every action has a reaction, everything leads to something different...

 

Top waffling btw 

[cubaricho]

As far as one player making it "click" look at Elano at Man City.  He makes Hamman actually play well and Ireland actually plays better when he's around as well.  One player can make a difference in a side, and usually it's a CM.  That's why we need a quality CM.

[Rich]

 

It's the way I believe everything works, more than anything. The "Butterfly Effect" sort of thing, every action has a reaction, everything leads to something different...

 

Top waffling btw 

 

Thanks!

 

Are we comparing ourselves to Arsenal now, by the way? Because that's a bit rich in my eyes, no pun intended.

 

If you look around the league, I don't think our players are really that bad when you compare them to the majority of squads, at least technically.

 

Arsenal are the exception to the rule, of course, they are the only team that play like that.

 

Man Utd play exemplary stuff when they're in top gear, but again they're far and above where we are at the moment.

 

Excluding the top four, there's probably Spurs who stand-out as being amongst the most technically gifted team, and Man City are up there as well, but even these sides aren't flooded with the sort of players that you see Arsenal utilising. They have their share of cloggers in there as well, but they have those extra few players with superior class (Berbatov, Huddlestone, King, Keane and Elano, Hamann, Petrov, Corluka) in a technical aspect.

 

If we're comaring our current lot to Arsenal at this point in time, then we might as well give up now, and I think you know I wasn't saying that the formation fully impacts a player's natural ability. Naughty, naughty.

[UV]

 

Not sure what the average response has been to the poll but the results suggest that we have around 8 to 10 players up the job. That means we need at least another 6 players of similar or better quality.

 

All teams (apart from the very best ones maybe) contain weak links. If we have 8 to 10 players capable of a top 6 finish, then the overall team should easily be able to (injuries excepted).

 

How many of O'Brien, Bernard, Griffin & Hughes would people say would get in a top 6 side? Yet they all played over 20 league games when we came 3rd.

[Mr. Snrub]

Bernard was a good player at the time tbf.

[UV]

Bernard was a good player at the time tbf.

and Hughes, but I bet Bernard is the only one who would get many votes out of those 4, which is the point I was trying to make (ie not that they were all crap).

[Jamie]

Beye Faye N'Zogbia

[Mr. Snrub]

Beye Faye N'Zogbia

 

Given not good enough for a top 6 side?

[Parky]

 

It's the way I believe everything works, more than anything. The "Butterfly Effect" sort of thing, every action has a reaction, everything leads to something different...

 

Top waffling btw 

 

Thanks!

 

Are we comparing ourselves to Arsenal now, by the way? Because that's a bit rich in my eyes, no pun intended.

 

If you look around the league, I don't think our players are really that bad when you compare them to the majority of squads, at least technically.

 

Arsenal are the exception to the rule, of course, they are the only team that play like that.

 

Man Utd play exemplary stuff when they're in top gear, but again they're far and above where we are at the moment.

 

Excluding the top four, there's probably Spurs who stand-out as being amongst the most technically gifted team, and Man City are up there as well, but even these sides aren't flooded with the sort of players that you see Arsenal utilising. They have their share of cloggers in there as well, but they have those extra few players with superior class (Berbatov, Huddlestone, King, Keane and Elano, Hamann, Petrov, Corluka) in a technical aspect.

 

If we're comaring our current lot to Arsenal at this point in time, then we might as well give up now, and I think you know I wasn't saying that the formation fully impacts a player's natural ability. Naughty, naughty.

 

The Pompey 11 is ahead of us imo.

[Rich]

Oh no doubts, I'm not saying only Spurs and Man City are more technically gifted than us, far from it.

 

I'd add Blackburn to the list as well, and Everton, etc.

 

I just don't think we're as bad as some are making out.

[Parky]

Oh no doubts, I'm not saying only Spurs and Man City are more technically gifted than us, far from it.

 

I'd add Blackburn to the list as well, and Everton, etc.

 

I just don't think we're as bad as some are making out.

 

Disaster is by no means imminent.