ElDiablo Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Sorry, how can you justify a Premiership striker who can't score with his feet? If he had 15 goals, fair enough - he's got fucking four! Martins has got more than that and he hasn't played for two fucking month - he's shit though, cos he can't finish. It reminds me of the people who used to say in Shearer's final seasons that it was ok that he was only scoring four goals a season from open play because he stuck a few penalties away. What it amounts to is that no matter how well we play and how many chances we create for Michael Owen, he will miss them. But it's ok, because he might head in a set piece every once in a while. It's not just yesterday either, he's been doing it all season. Most of his "shots" the keeper throws his hat on. The chances he had against Wigan, Arsenal, City, Blackburn, your average Premiership striker - Defoe, Bent, Johnson, Kitson, Kuyt - will score without a second thought. Once or twice is acceptable, nobody's perfect but we're in March and he's missed every single one. That's where I disagree, I'd say that was a bad run of form, which every striker goes through, combined with him still (I know this sounds like an excuse) still getting back his sharpness and the added pressure that comes with being the only bugger who gets chances and where we are in the table. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Sorry, how can you justify a Premiership striker who can't score with his feet? If he had 15 goals, fair enough - he's got fucking four! Martins has got more than that and he hasn't played for two fucking month - he's shit though, cos he can't finish. It reminds me of the people who used to say in Shearer's final seasons that it was ok that he was only scoring four goals a season from open play because he stuck a few penalties away. What it amounts to is that no matter how well we play and how many chances we create for Michael Owen, he will miss them. But it's ok, because he might head in a set piece every once in a while. It's not just yesterday either, he's been doing it all season. Most of his "shots" the keeper throws his hat on. The chances he had against Wigan, Arsenal, City, Blackburn, your average Premiership striker - Defoe, Bent, Johnson, Kitson, Kuyt - will score without a second thought. Once or twice is acceptable, nobody's perfect but we're in March and he's missed every single one. That's where I disagree, I'd say that was a bad run of form, which every striker goes through, combined with him still (I know this sounds like an excuse) still getting back his sharpness and the added pressure that comes with being the only bugger who gets chances and where we are in the table. How long is it going to take it to get his "sharpness" back, given that he's started the last 11 games? This bad run of form has lasted all season btw. He missed two genuine open goals for England in one game this season too, I didn't even mention them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LucaAltieri Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Sorry, how can you justify a Premiership striker who can't score with his feet? If he had 15 goals, fair enough - he's got fucking four! Martins has got more than that and he hasn't played for two fucking month - he's shit though, cos he can't finish. It reminds me of the people who used to say in Shearer's final seasons that it was ok that he was only scoring four goals a season from open play because he stuck a few penalties away. What it amounts to is that no matter how well we play and how many chances we create for Michael Owen, he will miss them. But it's ok, because he might head in a set piece every once in a while. It's not just yesterday either, he's been doing it all season. Most of his "shots" the keeper throws his hat on. Now you're just being silly. Since Keegan took over and we've dropped the negative style of play, the teams Owen hasn't managed to score against: Bolton "flat back 10" Wanderers Arsenal Man United Blackburn Now ask yourself, in how many of those games would Martins, Shola or Carroll have scored? There's only really the Blackburn game where Owen should have put a few away. No one is denying the fact he had a nightmare, but you do need a little perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 So it's Allardyce's negative style of play that made him miss all those easy chances earlier in the season? Must have affected us even more than we thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Fucking hell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElDiablo Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Sorry, how can you justify a Premiership striker who can't score with his feet? If he had 15 goals, fair enough - he's got fucking four! Martins has got more than that and he hasn't played for two fucking month - he's shit though, cos he can't finish. It reminds me of the people who used to say in Shearer's final seasons that it was ok that he was only scoring four goals a season from open play because he stuck a few penalties away. What it amounts to is that no matter how well we play and how many chances we create for Michael Owen, he will miss them. But it's ok, because he might head in a set piece every once in a while. It's not just yesterday either, he's been doing it all season. Most of his "shots" the keeper throws his hat on. The chances he had against Wigan, Arsenal, City, Blackburn, your average Premiership striker - Defoe, Bent, Johnson, Kitson, Kuyt - will score without a second thought. Once or twice is acceptable, nobody's perfect but we're in March and he's missed every single one. That's where I disagree, I'd say that was a bad run of form, which every striker goes through, combined with him still (I know this sounds like an excuse) still getting back his sharpness and the added pressure that comes with being the only bugger who gets chances and where we are in the table. How long is it going to take it to get his "sharpness" back, given that he's started the last 11 games? This bad run of form has lasted all season btw. He missed two genuine open goals for England in one game this season too, I didn't even mention them. Well looking at how long he's been out and how little he's played in the last couple of years, a hell of a lot longer than 11 games, imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LucaAltieri Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 So it's Allardyce's negative style of play that made him miss all those easy chances earlier in the season? Must have affected us even more than we thought. You can be as sarcastic and condescending as you like. Fact is I still think you’re writing him off prematurely and no amount of dick waving on a message board is going to change either of our opinions, so I guess we’ll just have to wait until the season’s finished and we’ll see how it turns out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 I'm not particularly an Owen fan btw. But the idea that Owen can't score with his feet any more because he's missed a few is laughable. I know a natural finisher when I see one and Owen has always been one. Whatever else he has lost from his game he hasn't lost that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnypd Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Owen's actual finishing is shit. can he hit a precise finish? can he fuck. can he get power behind his shots? don't make me laugh. if he has a lot of time to think under pressure will he hold his nerve and pick the right option? probably not. Owen through all his career has done 90% of the work of scoring by first getting into the right positions. the 10% down to finishing is simply NOT his strong point. he used to be in the right place at the right time through sheer pace and as his career went on used more and more positional nous to nip into good positions. Now that his pace has deserted him he is completely reliant on getting into good positions through nous, but with the quality of centre-half around most premiership clubs, with their reading of the game, power, pace and strength, it is not enough. in general play they simply crowd him out, chase him down, make him an irrelevance. the few instances he actually gets free of defenders is when they make positional mistakes - Man Utd when they pushed up, but it was so marginal that there is the danger of being flagged offside, as he wrongly was. even when he gets free, as i've said, his finishing is not great. he was/is an instinctual finisher who happened to get into good positions. now the positions aren't so gilt edged and he has to do more work himself, ie powering it from outside the area, or having to think about the situation, or having to place it more accurately, we're seeing very clearly that he is not a top finisher and not so good at those things. the majority of the opportunities he'll get to use his positional sense is when everyone is static and the physical component of the game is removed - set pieces. and even then, he's pretty short for a striker and not exactly going to be bullying the better defenders off the ball. The only real way we'll benefit from Owen in the side is having two fast, orthodox wingers who will get beyond him and twat quick crosses into dangerous areas so that he can attack them while the opposition defence is disorganised and pulled apart by others pace. he'll also need to be up alongside a quick, strong forward who will create space for owen and do a lot of his leg-work (as bellamy did for the ageing shearer). but then again, which striker wouldnt do well in such a team? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 I think its fair to say, that barring a ridiculous gamble by one of the top 6, or we go down and he decides to take a big drop in wages just to stay in the premiership, Owen will be with us next season. I would like to thik that if he keeps fit, and with a summer working with KK and the pre-season signings that he will make, Owen will be able to regain some of the goal scoring prowess that he had. Here's hoping because an on form Owen cant be a bad thing to have in your starting line up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Mongo Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Fuck's sake. He's started 14 league games and scored no goals with his feet man. He's missed God only knows how many sitters this season. He hasn't missed all that many, though. Our main problem has been that we've hardly created any chances for him to put away. And how many times has he been wrongly ruled offside, like when he scored against ManU at Old Trafford? What about his first disallowed goal against the Smoggies? Both times with his feet (or legs), and although they didn't count, they were perfectly valid goals. He's not finished, although he hardly deserves his wages (but then none of them do atm). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmonkey Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 One of Owen's headers was deflected into the net by a defender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Cant believe another thread has turned into an Owen argument Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rebel_yell12 Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 No one is denying (including Owen himself) that he should have done better yesterday. That said -- aside from yesterday -- how many sitters has he missed? And for that matter, I thought there was only one sitter he missed yesterday, the others were fairly well taken and fairly well saved. He had one against ManCity, I remember, and a couple others that I can't place rightly, but it really hasn't been loads. For those saying he's finished, I assume you date that from his latest injury (since his Jan. return)? Because if it's from his knee, you've conveniently forgotten what were widely considered "master classes" in finishing back in September against international sides for England (all three with his feet), and a few neat finishes since as well (including his second match back from his knee, when Samba managed an incredible goal-line clearance, and a good slot that was wrongly called out v. Boro more recently). Yet, he's scored three times in the seven matches since Keegan's arrival and his own return to fitness. That's not so bad considering two of them were from half-chances. I seem to remember Owen having some right nightmares at other points in his career (including an utterly ridiculous run-out for England v. Azerbaijan at St. James' when he played like he was 12) and he wasn't "finished". One 'mare does not "finished" make -- not for Owen, nor for Given, nor anyone else. And I can't honestly say Owen has been playing badly, aside from yesterday, since his return in early January. Did Michael Owen finish well yesterday? No, not at all. Does he deserve some stick for not putting that one (or more) in? Yes and I don't think anyone is denying that. Am I going to make excuses for him? No, his finishing was poor yesterday, simple as. But branding any player as "finished" because of one bad match seems a bit premature. All players have bad matches, and at least Owen has owned up to this one. Could do with that much honesty from other players in the league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Love how it's always the Liverpool fans coming on telling how good he is. Have him back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest louiseville_lip Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Love how it's always the Liverpool fans coming on telling how good he is. Have him back. I think it would be nice if they could take him back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamesD Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Anyone else disappointed Smith didn't pick up another yellow? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rebel_yell12 Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Love how some people ignore logic -- and the larger point of the post -- because the poster has admitted primary loyalty to a club that is not Newcastle United (that'll teach me to be honest, eh?). My point, if it must be clarified, was that stating ANY PLAYER was finished on the basis of one sh**ter seems premature. All players have a nightmare from time to time. This week, it is Owen who is "finished," last week it was Given, the week before it was Milner, iirc, who was "never going to be good enough" and has since been the best player in the midfield two matches running (and likely the best player on the pitch for NUFC on Sat). The POINT, in case you missed it, was not merely about Owen himself but about the issue of declaring people "finished" because of one or two matches. I said the same after the Pompey match and Geremi, Martins in the match v. Arsenal when he missed a few sitters, Milner a few weeks ago, Given last week, and now I'll say it about Owen this week. I'm not making excuses -- nothing about match fitness or that mess -- Owen had a 'mare in front of goal. I just don't agree that Owen is "finished" based on the evidence of Saturday's match. In this specific case, Owen has had sh**ters before and he wasn't finished then -- and he's had other, far worse, 'mares than he had Saturday through his career (for one example, see the England match v. Azerbaijan at St James', he played ridiculously poorly). If he'd not shown any quality since his knee injury, I'd be concerned about his injury "finishing" him, but he has shown that quality -- for instance, Russia were no mugs, and he was involved in every goal England scored against them, and had a great goal v. Israel. He's had at least two goals with his feet wrongly disallowed since his last injury (the torn thigh muscle) and has 2 of NUFC's 3 Premiership goals since Keegan's return, so I'm just not seeing evidence that he's "finished" rather than this was a sh**ter for him. Martins has had sh**ters, and I still rate him. Same with Given and several other players. It's those who seem to be perpetually having sh**ters more often than not that I'd replace in the summer -- Smith, Carr, Ameobi, Butt, and Barton. But clearly I can't talk sense because I'm not a Geordie. On your other point, I'd rather Liverpool brought Owen home than retain Kuyt or Voronin. Honestly, would rather have him than either of those two. I'd rather have Martins than either of those two as well. Can we have one or both, if you're giving away your quality players? Newcastle's two highest scorers are both players I'd not mind seeing in a red shirt -- we'd figure something out for all the little strikers we'd have then! Unfortunately, I don't think I personally can arrange it. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 These doubts about Owen aren't just in response to Saturday though. Since his injury, he's bulked up and he's lost that pace that was such an important part of his game. You say you'd prefer him to Kuyt - well I'd swap in a second. He's now no quicker than Kuyt and a lot less secure technically. Any of the big four could have had Owen for £9 million last summer, and there were no takers. Good though Owen is at sniffing out chances, he's always missed a fair percentage. As was shown on Saturday, his left foot is still weak and he often tries to stab the ball with the outside of his right foot when he should give it a blast with his left. And although his heading has improved, he tends to rely on beating defenders to the near post. He doesn't win that many headers under direct challenge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rebel_yell12 Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Last summer, I wouldn't have wanted Liverpool to risk buying Owen (and you've all probably figured out I'm a longtime fan). He'd played 3 matches since coming back from doing his knee, no one had a clue what his fitness was going to be like or if he'd ever score another decent goal (he didn't score at all in the last three matches of last season, and managed to pick up a concussion!). He's scored some class goals since (though not as many as Newcastle would like certainly), and his fitness finally seems to be sorted (touch wood). That said, I still don't expect one of the Big 4 to come in for him (much as I'd love to see Liverpool get another true striker and a local lad back home). I would think it more likely that a European team, but not Champions League, would go in for him -- willing to risk the wages for a proven international and league goalscorer. Personally, if Liverpool don't come in, I'd like to see (and expect to see) Owen stay at Newcastle United. But if his fitness is proven and he continues to show that Saturday was a 'mare and not his standard...I think someone would be interested at 10 mil or just about any of the numbers I've seen Newcastle fans asking for him. Considering what strikers like Defoe/Bent are going for the last few seasons, at least. Owen "lost his pace" in 2002-03 when he did his first "bulking up" to fix his dodgy hamstring and to try to compensate for a naturally misaligned spine (somewhere around the fifth vertebrae from the bottom, rumours said). He's had some truly good seasons since, both for clubs and his country. He may not be any quicker than Kuyt, but he thinks the game far better and quicker. I'm not impressed with Kuyt, tbh, except that the lad always plays his heart out. I'm even less impressed with Voronin. Aside from Torres, Rafa's taste in strikers has never been much for me. Too bad we can't arrange the whole thing between us, eh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 My point, if it must be clarified, was that stating ANY PLAYER was finished on the basis of one sh**ter seems premature. Which is where you're missing the point entirely. He's been missing these easy chances all season from the very first game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest newcastle4life Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Not the result needed especially with Liverpool next need points soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Blackburn have been charged with misconduct after the touchline incident. Surprised we've not too tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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