Timing: Our past, the present, our future? by NE5

[Guest thompers]

 

Its not my problem if you just go into automode again ....   

 

 

Perhaps the most hypocritical comment I've read, ever.

[macbeth]

says he, who has reverted to name calling and been banned for it.

 

At that time you lied to me, despite pleading for an honest opinion from me, because you were genuinely interested in my opinion, on George Eaastham or some such distant issue. When I gave an honest answer you twisted it. I lost the plot. The only time I lose the plot is with lying hypocrites.

 

I don't really have much to say to you, because you aren't interested in the football club, you are right we have played it to exhaustion. I'm not surprised you have replied in this thread...surprisingly [or not] you yourself should spend more time putting right those who think we can buy half a team of internationals every summer...despite the absurdity of the same people then saying they expect it from a "shit" board.

 

I do. I try desperately try to explain exactly that. Unfortunately this summer those people spent £15m, the previous £20m. We end up with a huge overdraft and they still keep spending. Never thought I'd say it but you're right, they're absurd trying to run the club this way.

 

 

[NE5]

says he, who has reverted to name calling and been banned for it.

 

At that time you lied to me, despite pleading for an honest opinion from me, because you were genuinely interested in my opinion, on George Eaastham or some such distant issue. When I gave an honest answer you twisted it. I lost the plot. The only time I lose the plot is with lying hypocrites.

 

I don't really have much to say to you, because you aren't interested in the football club, you are right we have played it to exhaustion. I'm not surprised you have replied in this thread...surprisingly [or not] you yourself should spend more time putting right those who think we can buy half a team of internationals every summer...despite the absurdity of the same people then saying they expect it from a "shit" board.

 

I do. I try desperately try to explain exactly that. Unfortunately this summer those people spent £15m, the previous £20m. We end up with a huge overdraft and they still keep spending. Never thought I'd say it but you're right, they're absurd trying to run the club this way.

 

 

 

don't tell me, tell those who think the shite board can spend 50m quid a year on half a team of international players.

 

Lots of new recruits for your crusade there.

 

 

As for lying hypocrites, are you still denying you were happy with the board until 2003 yet sent an article to the mag in 1998 whinging on about the effect of dividends ?

 

And do you still think that bloke from the Post Office would be "perfect" for Newcastle United, despite him being responsible for handing a massive contract to Eriksson to manage England and spending an amount of money on building a new Wembley that is resulting in making it a corporate enterprise for the next hundred years until someone builds another one ? Good football man that, eh ?

 

Stick to your sad website and your crusade is my advice....

[NE5]

Freddie Shepherd has a dick.

 

I have also put up a fact.

 

If you agree with this fact than you must agree that Freddie Shepherd is a dick.

 

Oh no maybe this fact is wrong ...

 

So - do you have a dick or are you a fanny 

[CaliMag]

Freddie Shepherd has a dick.

 

I have also put up a fact.

 

If you agree with this fact than you must agree that Freddie Shepherd is a dick.

 

Oh no maybe this fact is wrong ...

 

So - do you have a dick or are you a fanny 

 

Spot the irony.

[merlin]

Quote "I think it is pretty obvious to say the club hasn’t reached the Keegan heights since, at least on the playing side of things."

So at last you admit it has gone backwards since Keegans days, all under the Chairmanship of Freddie.

Case closed.

 

So you expect a club to stay 2nd forever ?

 

I expect such naivety from people who don't go to games.

 

 

So going to football matches removes naivety?  Does it get rid of dandruff as well?

 

 

OK then, so - do YOU think clubs have a divine right to stay 2nd forever, or they are "shit" ?

 

You are into turntables, right ? Do you think a rega planar 2 is shite because it isn't as good as a rega 3 ?

 

I think it is pretty fair. The facts are that SJH was chairman while Keegan was manager and we have not done so well since.

 

However - we still have the same board, primarily, with the same major shareholders. Is this correct or not ?

 

Hall Jnr, Shepherd and Fletcher were responsible for appointing Keegan as manager, NOT Sir John Hall.

 

So - why exactly does Hall Jnr, Shepherd and Fletcher get zero credit for Keegans appointment ? And SJH all of it ?

 

The same SJH who showed outstanding leadership and "planning" that he almost lost him only weeks into his managerial career for going back on his word to sign a couple of players for a couple of hundred grand apiece ? Good leadership and good planning ?

 

Hall Jnr and Shepherd were also responsible for appointing Dalglish to succeed Keegan, who was a multiple trophy winner [ 4 League championships with 2 different clubs, 2 FA Cups and 3 manager of the year awards] and one of the highest qualified managers in world football to take on the Newcastle job. If you are not impressed with that, what is your criteria for appointing managers ?

 

I am sorry...I can accept you have an "opinion", but where plain facts show an opinion to be flawed, it is right that facts are pointed out and if people can't accept them because they have a paranoid opinion, and no mind of their own that enables them to arrive at a factual based opinion, then that is their problem.

 

As for Fox, he was a whinging bugger when Robson was manager, so as I said, I am not surprised he is whinging now. You know, the same Bobby Robson who got us in the top 3, and played in the Champions League while having a shite board.

 

 

 

I can shed some light on the claim that  SJH 'went back on his word ' about signing a couple of players , prompting KK to walk away. This actually happened on March 12 , 1992(the day we played Swindon, winning 3-1 , and KK left straight after the game).

As ever with KK , he jumped first & asked questions later - I know for a fact that the Bank which NUFC were using at that time , wanted to take 250,000 , PRIVATE MONEY put up by SJH & Lady Hall , to pay off part of the O/Draft. SJH would not allow that to happen , which is why the deal was delayed(this was actually for Kilcline). In the end , an agreement was reached which allowed the club to use the money for the player , but KK reacted without clarifying the position first. SJH had to ring him up at his home in Romsey(Hants) to sort the whole thing out , and he actually said 'there are 2 people who can save NUFC, and they are both on different ends of this phone-line...'

 

The rest is history , but DON'T accuse SJH of 'backing out' - why would he ? He had spent 4 years & a few Mill in order to get the club in the first place. Shepherd is NOT A PATCH on him as Chairman , without question.

 

 

Keegan says on page 205 in his book "Neither George Forbes nor Peter Mallinger knew that on Monday 3 February 1992 I was being asked to take over as Newcastle Manager on the Wednesday. When it came to the crunch, it was Fletcher, Shepherd and Douglas Hall who wanted me to replace Ossie Ardiles".

 

Further down the page he says about a meeting they had " I was not very impressed with him (Hall Snr). It was obvious that he wasn't comfortable with my proposed appointment. I could understand why, because he has put his name to an article by Bob Cass in the Mail on Sunday three days earlier which claimed that ossie's job was safe, and I knew that his family had built up a strong friendship with Ossie's. I was also concerned that neither Mallinger nor Forbes was present. Whatever Sir John thought about the situation he was in the minority. The other 3 laid the cards on the table: the club was on its way down and they had to do something very quickly if they were going to halt the decline. It seemed to me that Sir John was being given no choice.

 

He seemed anxious to get away - his original reason for coming down to London with his wife Lady Mae was to buy some trees in Kew Gardens. But I would not let him slip away until I knew how much money would be available to me for players. He told me that there would be 1m straight away and a further million if it was required. That was what I wanted to hear. It might not sound like a lot of money these days, but then I felt it was as much as I needed"

 

Further down he says "I must have been the only manager to be appointed without the knowledge of the chairman and vice chairman, neither of whom was informed until an hour before the press conference at which the news was made public. And even the future chairman - the man with the money - indicated that it was his colleagues rather than himself who wanted me."

 

A few pages later, on page 213, he says "What I did not know what that Sir John hall was playing political games with the other directors, Bob Young, George Forbes, Peter Mallinger and Gordon McKeag, in the matter of funds he had promised me. He was quite prepared to put in his share of the money I needed, which amounted to 40 per cent, but he told the others that  they had to find the

remaining 60 per cent. That was not fair, because none of them had been given a say in my appointment, or even known about it, let alone an  opportunity to turn down or agree to my original demands. As far as I was concerned, it wasn't their problem and I never held anything against Forbes and Mallinger over the issue.

 

All this was going on as a sideshow to the relegation battle and I decided that enough was enough. I filled Terry {Mac} in on the details and told him that we had no alternative but to go. Sir John had to keep his promises, regardless of his problems with the others and how much they might or might not put in."

 

, on pagef 214, he says "The player I wanted, Darren McDonough from Luton, was only going to cost £100,000,  a fraction of the 1m or even the 2m pledged to me to get the club out of trouble"

 

Then, after the Swindon game, while driving out of the ground with Terry (Mac) - " I'm finished here and none of you know. I was furious, not with Forbes, Mallinger or the other directors, but with Sir John Hall".

 

I have heard what you say mate ie about the 250 grand. I am only quoting from Keegans book. It is only one side, but does anyone think Keegan told us lies ? I don't. I'm not casting judgement on SJH either, nobody can after how it all turned out, I too wish we were still in such a position and that Keegan had not left the club.

 

 

 

 

Got all details I told you about from 'horses mouth' day before Port Vale game(couple of weeks prior to the walk-out).

 

Other board members reluctant to put in money , all left within a few months - if SJH had really not wanted KK, could have let him go after walk-out.Brian Little had not settled in Leicester after taking Darlo

to back-to-back promotions and would probably have been available(Little is a Geordie , was only in his late 30's at the time , and DID have some top-level success with A.Villa before making big mistake by signing Collymore).David Kelly played under Little at Leicester, and reckoned he was the best manager he ever played under....

Sir John still made the effort to get KK back AND let him scrap Reserves etc a few years later(something I personally would have been hard-pushed to allow), so he cannot have thought that badly of him.

 

Neither of these guys is without faults(are any of us?), but neither possess as many as Shepherd..

[Guest elbee909]

 

Its pretty straightforward. Do you think being 5th best over a decade, qualifying for europe 7 times in that period, filling a 52,000 stadium and buyuing major and current England interational footballers is shit ?

 

If you don't then the conlusion must be that you think we have a divine right to do better.

 

With the resources at hand, we should be doing better.  We should be, consistently, at the top end of the table.  How is this hard to grasp?  Divine right, no.  Expectiations, yes.

 

5th best over a decade?  Nice way of smoothing over the cracks.  If only we could say we were 5th best now.  Even though I'm lacking in your years, I remember when finishing 2nd wasn't an impossibility for us, like it now seems to be.

 

Qualifying for Europe is the least I'd expect of a club with our resources. 

 

Buying players is an achievement of the board?  Filling the stadium?  That'll be the supporters that a) fund the bloody club so they can buy players and offer the wages we do by b) filling the stadium.

 

That is unrealistic and fantastically naive. Not to mention completely indicative of the higher standards set by the current board, which I presume STILL escapes you.

 

Those higher standards have escaped them, I know that much.  If they have such high standards why haven't they stepped aside to let people more capable do the job?

 

Poor lot, these new Newcastle fans, they think playing regularly in europe and buying major England players is not good enough for them....they sound more and more like idiotic manu gloryseekers all the time  :roll:

 

Ah well, it's those fans that tolerate mediocrity at board level while paying top dollar for it that seem pretty idiotic to me.

 

as I have said, I am not backing or defending anybody, just stating facts. This is why I am correct and you are wrong, my opinion is based on facts, whereas others - not just you - are repeating what others spout through not looking at them and having a mind of your own.

 

Your opinion is based on a rather small and select group of facts and *interpretations of facts* that you hold on to for dear life. 

 

You think we have a divine right to be mediocre.

 

Sadly, you defeat your own logic by saying we got Dalglish because he was free, then paid to appoint Souness.

 

I know.  You couldn't make it up.  I didn't say our board had any consistency in how it comes to these decisions, did I?  I doubt logic could have played any sort of part in appointing Souness.  Dalglish, you know, they went for the best option (in their eyes) in terms of cost and what they thought he'd bring to the setup.  Fair enough.

 

Souness was a sign of how low they had to stoop to scrape the bottom of the barrel after ditching Robson. 

 

If this isn't a sign of decline in terms of ambition and standing in English football then I'm not really sure what is.

 

Dalglish was appointed as a serious statement of intent to build on the Keegan legacy. Before 1992 he wouldn't have even considered the Newcastle job. Like many others including Bobby Robson. If you disagree with that, it shows completely you have absolutely zero awareness of that era, and hence having zero awareness of that era explains completely why you completely underestimate the board we have nowadays.

 

ie. Naive.

 

You seem to have a problem with raising your expectations in line with the foundations laid down post-92. 

 

To paraphrase your paramour, we pay the board Rolls Royce wages and we're not getting Rolls Royce performance.  Not now.  But you'll turn a blind eye to that, which seems a hell of a lot more naive to me.

 

[Guest Gemmill]

 

Its pretty straightforward. Do you think being 5th best over a decade, qualifying for europe 7 times in that period, filling a 52,000 stadium and buyuing major and current England interational footballers is shit ?

 

If you don't then the conlusion must be that you think we have a divine right to do better.

 

With the resources at hand, we should be doing better.  We should be, consistently, at the top end of the table.  How is this hard to grasp?  Divine right, no.  Expectiations, yes.

 

5th best over a decade?  Nice way of smoothing over the cracks.  If only we could say we were 5th best now.  Even though I'm lacking in your years, I remember when finishing 2nd wasn't an impossibility for us, like it now seems to be.

 

Qualifying for Europe is the least I'd expect of a club with our resources. 

 

Buying players is an achievement of the board?  Filling the stadium?  That'll be the supporters that a) fund the bloody club so they can buy players and offer the wages we do by b) filling the stadium.

 

That is unrealistic and fantastically naive. Not to mention completely indicative of the higher standards set by the current board, which I presume STILL escapes you.

 

Those higher standards have escaped them, I know that much.  If they have such high standards why haven't they stepped aside to let people more capable do the job?

 

Poor lot, these new Newcastle fans, they think playing regularly in europe and buying major England players is not good enough for them....they sound more and more like idiotic manu gloryseekers all the time  :roll:

 

Ah well, it's those fans that tolerate mediocrity at board level while paying top dollar for it that seem pretty idiotic to me.

 

as I have said, I am not backing or defending anybody, just stating facts. This is why I am correct and you are wrong, my opinion is based on facts, whereas others - not just you - are repeating what others spout through not looking at them and having a mind of your own.

 

Your opinion is based on a rather small and select group of facts and *interpretations of facts* that you hold on to for dear life. 

 

You think we have a divine right to be mediocre.

 

Sadly, you defeat your own logic by saying we got Dalglish because he was free, then paid to appoint Souness.

 

I know.  You couldn't make it up.  I didn't say our board had any consistency in how it comes to these decisions, did I?  I doubt logic could have played any sort of part in appointing Souness.  Dalglish, you know, they went for the best option (in their eyes) in terms of cost and what they thought he'd bring to the setup.  Fair enough.

 

Souness was a sign of how low they had to stoop to scrape the bottom of the barrel after ditching Robson. 

 

If this isn't a sign of decline in terms of ambition and standing in English football then I'm not really sure what is.

 

Dalglish was appointed as a serious statement of intent to build on the Keegan legacy. Before 1992 he wouldn't have even considered the Newcastle job. Like many others including Bobby Robson. If you disagree with that, it shows completely you have absolutely zero awareness of that era, and hence having zero awareness of that era explains completely why you completely underestimate the board we have nowadays.

 

ie. Naive.

 

You seem to have a problem with raising your expectations in line with the foundations laid down post-92. 

 

To paraphrase your paramour, we pay the board Rolls Royce wages and we're not getting Rolls Royce performance.  Not now.  But you'll turn a blind eye to that, which seems a hell of a lot more naive to me.

 

 

Once again, somebody else takes 10 minutes out to completely dismantle NE5's argument and entire reason for being on Newcastle forums.  He won't see it though.  He'll just come back with the same old tired stuff about 5th best, divine right, full houses etc. etc.  Completely oblivious to the fact that he's losing this argument with pretty much anyone that cares to take it up with him....

[NE5]

 

Its pretty straightforward. Do you think being 5th best over a decade, qualifying for europe 7 times in that period, filling a 52,000 stadium and buyuing major and current England interational footballers is shit ?

 

If you don't then the conlusion must be that you think we have a divine right to do better.

 

With the resources at hand, we should be doing better.  We should be, consistently, at the top end of the table.  How is this hard to grasp?  Divine right, no.  Expectiations, yes.

 

5th best over a decade?  Nice way of smoothing over the cracks.  If only we could say we were 5th best now.  Even though I'm lacking in your years, I remember when finishing 2nd wasn't an impossibility for us, like it now seems to be.

 

Qualifying for Europe is the least I'd expect of a club with our resources. 

 

Buying players is an achievement of the board?  Filling the stadium?  That'll be the supporters that a) fund the bloody club so they can buy players and offer the wages we do by b) filling the stadium.

 

That is unrealistic and fantastically naive. Not to mention completely indicative of the higher standards set by the current board, which I presume STILL escapes you.

 

Those higher standards have escaped them, I know that much.  If they have such high standards why haven't they stepped aside to let people more capable do the job?

 

Poor lot, these new Newcastle fans, they think playing regularly in europe and buying major England players is not good enough for them....they sound more and more like idiotic manu gloryseekers all the time  :roll:

 

Ah well, it's those fans that tolerate mediocrity at board level while paying top dollar for it that seem pretty idiotic to me.

 

as I have said, I am not backing or defending anybody, just stating facts. This is why I am correct and you are wrong, my opinion is based on facts, whereas others - not just you - are repeating what others spout through not looking at them and having a mind of your own.

 

Your opinion is based on a rather small and select group of facts and *interpretations of facts* that you hold on to for dear life. 

 

You think we have a divine right to be mediocre.

 

Sadly, you defeat your own logic by saying we got Dalglish because he was free, then paid to appoint Souness.

 

I know.  You couldn't make it up.  I didn't say our board had any consistency in how it comes to these decisions, did I?  I doubt logic could have played any sort of part in appointing Souness.  Dalglish, you know, they went for the best option (in their eyes) in terms of cost and what they thought he'd bring to the setup.  Fair enough.

 

Souness was a sign of how low they had to stoop to scrape the bottom of the barrel after ditching Robson. 

 

If this isn't a sign of decline in terms of ambition and standing in English football then I'm not really sure what is.

 

Dalglish was appointed as a serious statement of intent to build on the Keegan legacy. Before 1992 he wouldn't have even considered the Newcastle job. Like many others including Bobby Robson. If you disagree with that, it shows completely you have absolutely zero awareness of that era, and hence having zero awareness of that era explains completely why you completely underestimate the board we have nowadays.

 

ie. Naive.

 

You seem to have a problem with raising your expectations in line with the foundations laid down post-92. 

 

To paraphrase your paramour, we pay the board Rolls Royce wages and we're not getting Rolls Royce performance.  Not now.  But you'll turn a blind eye to that, which seems a hell of a lot more naive to me.

 

 

If filling the stadium, and running the club to a level that it can buy major England players and international players at their peak or approaching their peak, isn't an achievement of the board by raising expectations and showing ambition, please explain why 30,000 supporters pissed off - for years on average - when the club was shite. Best fans going .....  same as everyone else actually. What brought them back ?

 

We have always had the same potential, with the same potential fanbase. Other big clubs also have big potential, with a big potential fanbase, that we have overtaken since the current board took over the club, there are a few we haven't because they are very well run themselves, and have had sustained success for the thick end of 30-40 years experience to draw on while we have had our best years under Keegan. What is so hard to grasp about this ? Contrary to what you think we do not have a divine right to finish above all these clubs and contrary to what you say, you DO think we have this, because it is exactly what you are saying. You remember when when we were 2nd ..... well I remember when we would have killed to qualify for europe even once.

 

Nobody is settling for "mediocrity", because for one thing, qualifying for europe more than any other club in a decade except 4, is certainly not "mediocrity".

 

Ah well, it's those fans that tolerate mediocrity at board level while paying top dollar for it that seem pretty idiotic to me

does this quote mean you would withdraw your support if the club was "mediocre"...... which pretty much says everything. Meaning that as you haven't withdrawn your support then it is far from "mediocre" - as it was ( and worse ) for decades prior to the current board. The league positions are available in case you think I am making this up.

 

There is absolutely no way in the world that bringing a manager to the club who had won 4 league titles with 2 clubs, 2 FA Cups and 3 manager of the year awards is anything other than a direct and deliberate attempt to win the premiership and the big trophies. You can dispute that as long as you like - anything but admit otherwise - but if you do deny it, it simply shows your paranoia and blindness, and inability to give credit for anything, like others.

 

Lastly - as some people have made comments saying I should "show my experience" --- when I say these things it is precisely what I am doing. Whether you choose to take it on board or not, or presume you know best despite not experienced these eras is of course your decision, but sensible people would not discard the information. What you wish to think of people who choose to ignore it is of course also up to you. I think it gives me the right to think they must be pretty daft.

 

[Guest Gemmill]

Once again, somebody else takes 10 minutes out to completely dismantle NE5's argument and entire reason for being on Newcastle forums.  He won't see it though.  He'll just come back with the same old tired stuff about 5th best, divine right, full houses etc. etc. 

 

And lo and behold....

 

If filling the stadium, and running the club to a level that it can buy major England players and international players at their peak or approaching their peak, isn't an achievement of the board by raising expectations and showing ambition, please explain why 30,000 supporters pissed off - for years on average - when the club was shite........Contrary to what you think we do not have a divine right to finish above all these clubs......qualifying for europe more than any other club in a decade except 4, is certainly not "mediocrity".

 

It's like a bad bad joke.   He'll even read someone predict that that's exactly what he'll say in response, and then say it anyway.

[NE5]

thanks for the comments though mate, it was intended to be a balanced article, I have tried to see the good and bad things about the board. The board may well be approaching the end of the line, that is why I said what I did towards the end, because I realise that. That is not pro-Shepherd. Nor is where I say that he has made "reactionary" appointments, although don't lose sight of the fact that Dalglish, Gullit and Robson were all highly regarded and proven winners. You would be pushed to find someone with as many titles and honours to his name as a manager than Dalglish.

 

Maybe the Keegan era did come too quickly, without proper foundations, and discarding the youth scheme made things more difficult to consolidate a sound footing after he had gone ? Good point, I never thought of putting that in.

 

I think buying Owen is without a doubt good forward planning as Shearers replacement, whether or not we would be better off with 2 forwards - I don;t know - you could say we have bought 2 forwards ie Martins and Luque !!!! If Owen was playing and scoring goals we would probably be happy but as he is injured again, we would undoubtedly be better off with 2 players who were playing, so long as they justified their fees and delivered the performances. But thats football, sometimes these things happen you can't predict them.

 

Portsmouth won't have the quality to stay where they are, I don;t think. Do you ? They have made a good start though so shouldn't have the problems they had last year, and if it had been up to me, I would have kept Lua Lua, world beater he isn't but he would be playing now and he didn't get a chance at Newcastle.

 

Cheers for that.

 

 

Credit where credit's due mate.

 

The buying 2 strikers thing i was thinking more along the lines of instead of buying Owen, we could've bought Andy Johnson and someone else, i seem to remember him being scoffed at by the majority of the people here.  May be mistaken, but i think it's in the same with Ashton.  Who here would not have prefered Johnson to Martins? Nearly the same money and a player with pace, strength and the ability.  But the same couldbe said for James Beattie, but look at him now.  Personally i think the forward we're "lining up" to buy in january is Ashton, i think we would've bougth him in the summer but he got injured.  Don't know why but it's just a gut feeling.  Plus i think he's mroe the Shearer replacement Freddie was thinking of, a player with the same style of play.  But saying that, we've needed to change the style of play for years, with Shearer's lack of mobility and now he's gone, but not forgotten, we still paly liek we have Shearer of a few seasons ago.

 

My view on the past few managers:

 

I think the arguements of who brought Keagan in could go on and on, and i think both views are probably right.  Hall snr was in-essence in charge, but his hand was guided by jnr, fletcher & shepard.  So really both "parties" could take credit for bringing him in.  When he left, he left us in it, simple as. 

 

The board brought in a manager who had the experience of winning, very recently too, Dalgleish's downfall was bringing in his own team of players and selling the old squad too quickly.  But he was sacked for not winning the fa cup, and not performing in the league.(personally i think we should've given him another season, but he did sign some over the hill liverpool players to try and bring a '80's liverpool style of play into the club). 

 

When Gullit was made manager is was to try and bring back some of the Keagan style of football, but he didn't seem to have the knowledge or ability inthe transfer market to do so, and so with a decent cup run ending in another humilation in the fa cup final he was on his way too, probably correctly.

 

Robson was offered the job when Keagan left, he didn't take it due to his commitments at PSV, which he then left to go to Portugal, and so when the offer/opportunity to get the job cam earound again he jumped on it, probably regretting the fact he didn't take it the first time ( I haven't read his book, don't know if it's true, just my view).  He did well, got us out of the quagmire, introduced some stability in the club, but was probably waiting for someone, possibly Shearer, to become his assistant and then take over.  This never happened and so he lost his way, adn was booted, too late, not because he should've gone earlier, but surely a thought process longer than second would've shown that you get a new manager in during the summer, not at the start of a new season?? blueconfused.gif

 

Souness was obviously a last grasp at someone who'd one something recently, and showed that it was a fluke or let's say a good cup run doesn't make a good team.

 

Roeder is a good COACH, not a good manager, personally i'd have him as my head coach, with a more tactically asstute manager in charge of the first team.

 

The main downfall with the board atm is that they seem to think that big money striker signing's will make the team score loads and therfore win a-la Keagan's doens't matter how many you score we can score more, on a side note it would be interesting to see if the Keagan defence was as bad as everyone seems to remember it being.  To win things in this day and age of the premiership with it's bigger squads of higher class palyers, you need to have good players alround.  Look at Man Utd, they've never looked as good as when they had the squad of '99.  Yes they probably have better individual players, but the overall ability of the squad is less, just the compare the defences, Stam or Rio? Schmeical or Van der Sar? Neville or... oh wait he's still there.  The still rely on Giggs and scholes to produce a much needed solid attack/defence, yes Rooney & Ronaldo play damn well together or apart but 2 men don't make a team, nevermind a squad.

 

Plenty of sound sensible points there mate. My mate thinks we should have bought Johnson and I must admit I didn't have a view on him either way when he played for Palace but when he played against us for Everton the other week I thought he was very good and so now agree, although it depends how well Martins does. And having said that - in Johnson we would have had the settled into the premiership article, and I think that is important especially for us and because of the players we have injured at the moment.

 

I would like Ashton, provided we have a player alongside him who has pace, and plays outside the box ie makes runs, and has mobility.

 

I don't actually give any specific members of the board any credit, or criticism, for appointing all our managers and how the club is run, it has been a joint thing since 1992, they have all been in it together with the same majority shareholders, all of them together making some good decisons and some bad ones. And as I said - all boards can only make so many disappointing appointments and then their time up will arrive, and ours is no different. They will go down as having moved the club forward and leaving a massively more competitive and higher profile club than when they came, but it scares me that they would be replaced by people similar to those who have taken over other clubs and showed no ambition, there are plenty around.

 

I tend to agree with what you say about Dalglish. I wasn't happy at the time, but maybe we should have given him longer and if we had won at Wembley he would have got it so who knows what difference a single 90 minute match might have made, the same as the home game with Manu that we lost 1-0.

 

 

[NE5]

 

Its pretty straightforward. Do you think being 5th best over a decade, qualifying for europe 7 times in that period, filling a 52,000 stadium and buyuing major and current England interational footballers is shit ?

 

If you don't then the conlusion must be that you think we have a divine right to do better.

 

With the resources at hand, we should be doing better.  We should be, consistently, at the top end of the table.  How is this hard to grasp?  Divine right, no.  Expectiations, yes.

 

5th best over a decade?  Nice way of smoothing over the cracks.  If only we could say we were 5th best now.  Even though I'm lacking in your years, I remember when finishing 2nd wasn't an impossibility for us, like it now seems to be.

 

Qualifying for Europe is the least I'd expect of a club with our resources. 

 

Buying players is an achievement of the board?  Filling the stadium?  That'll be the supporters that a) fund the bloody club so they can buy players and offer the wages we do by b) filling the stadium.

 

That is unrealistic and fantastically naive. Not to mention completely indicative of the higher standards set by the current board, which I presume STILL escapes you.

 

Those higher standards have escaped them, I know that much.  If they have such high standards why haven't they stepped aside to let people more capable do the job?

 

Poor lot, these new Newcastle fans, they think playing regularly in europe and buying major England players is not good enough for them....they sound more and more like idiotic manu gloryseekers all the time  :roll:

 

Ah well, it's those fans that tolerate mediocrity at board level while paying top dollar for it that seem pretty idiotic to me.

 

as I have said, I am not backing or defending anybody, just stating facts. This is why I am correct and you are wrong, my opinion is based on facts, whereas others - not just you - are repeating what others spout through not looking at them and having a mind of your own.

 

Your opinion is based on a rather small and select group of facts and *interpretations of facts* that you hold on to for dear life. 

 

You think we have a divine right to be mediocre.

 

Sadly, you defeat your own logic by saying we got Dalglish because he was free, then paid to appoint Souness.

 

I know.  You couldn't make it up.  I didn't say our board had any consistency in how it comes to these decisions, did I?  I doubt logic could have played any sort of part in appointing Souness.  Dalglish, you know, they went for the best option (in their eyes) in terms of cost and what they thought he'd bring to the setup.  Fair enough.

 

Souness was a sign of how low they had to stoop to scrape the bottom of the barrel after ditching Robson. 

 

If this isn't a sign of decline in terms of ambition and standing in English football then I'm not really sure what is.

 

Dalglish was appointed as a serious statement of intent to build on the Keegan legacy. Before 1992 he wouldn't have even considered the Newcastle job. Like many others including Bobby Robson. If you disagree with that, it shows completely you have absolutely zero awareness of that era, and hence having zero awareness of that era explains completely why you completely underestimate the board we have nowadays.

 

ie. Naive.

 

You seem to have a problem with raising your expectations in line with the foundations laid down post-92. 

 

To paraphrase your paramour, we pay the board Rolls Royce wages and we're not getting Rolls Royce performance.  Not now.  But you'll turn a blind eye to that, which seems a hell of a lot more naive to me.

 

 

Once again, somebody else takes 10 minutes out to completely dismantle NE5's argument and entire reason for being on Newcastle forums.  He won't see it though.  He'll just come back with the same old tired stuff about 5th best, divine right, full houses etc. etc.  Completely oblivious to the fact that he's losing this argument with pretty much anyone that cares to take it up with him....

 

........ because its fact.

 

It took you a while to admit you were wrong about Souness too didn't it Gem ?? 

[NE5]

Once again, somebody else takes 10 minutes out to completely dismantle NE5's argument and entire reason for being on Newcastle forums.  He won't see it though.  He'll just come back with the same old tired stuff about 5th best, divine right, full houses etc. etc. 

 

And lo and behold....

 

If filling the stadium, and running the club to a level that it can buy major England players and international players at their peak or approaching their peak, isn't an achievement of the board by raising expectations and showing ambition, please explain why 30,000 supporters pissed off - for years on average - when the club was shite........Contrary to what you think we do not have a divine right to finish above all these clubs......qualifying for europe more than any other club in a decade except 4, is certainly not "mediocrity".

 

It's like a bad bad joke.   He'll even read someone predict that that's exactly what he'll say in response, and then say it anyway.

 

get back to work ....

 

is this your new job Gem.....you do even less work than the other one  bluebigeek.gif

[Guest Gemmill]

Once again, somebody else takes 10 minutes out to completely dismantle NE5's argument and entire reason for being on Newcastle forums.  He won't see it though.  He'll just come back with the same old tired stuff about 5th best, divine right, full houses etc. etc. 

 

And lo and behold....

 

If filling the stadium, and running the club to a level that it can buy major England players and international players at their peak or approaching their peak, isn't an achievement of the board by raising expectations and showing ambition, please explain why 30,000 supporters pissed off - for years on average - when the club was shite........Contrary to what you think we do not have a divine right to finish above all these clubs......qualifying for europe more than any other club in a decade except 4, is certainly not "mediocrity".

 

It's like a bad bad joke.   He'll even read someone predict that that's exactly what he'll say in response, and then say it anyway.

 

get back to work ....

 

is this your new job Gem.....you do even less work than the other one  bluebigeek.gif

 

Yes it is.  And yes, I do.  bluebigrazz.gif

 

I'm right though, you can't keep peddling the same old shit to defend this failing regime.  You're doing yourself no favours by excusing Shepherd's failures all the time.

[Baggio]

NE5 - You've taken statements out of Keegan's book that put Shepherd in a good light and used them as 'facts' yet when anyone quotes Sir Bobbys book about Shepherd selling Speed behind his back you don't acknowledge it as the chairman interfering with transfers.

 

Why is this?

[Colos Short and Curlies]

NE5 - You've taken statements out of Keegan's book that put Shepherd in a good light and used them as 'facts' yet when anyone quotes Sir Bobbys book about Shepherd selling Speed behind his back you don't acknowledge it as the chairman interfering with transfers.

 

Why is this?

 

NE5 = Freddy Shepherd

[Kitman]

NE5 - You've taken statements out of Keegan's book that put Shepherd in a good light and used them as 'facts' yet when anyone quotes Sir Bobbys book about Shepherd selling Speed behind his back you don't acknowledge it as the chairman interfering with transfers.

 

Why is this?

 

:roll:  obvious - FACTS versus Keegan bandwagon jumping bilge

[NE5]

NE5 - You've taken statements out of Keegan's book that put Shepherd in a good light and used them as 'facts' yet when anyone quotes Sir Bobbys book about Shepherd selling Speed behind his back you don't acknowledge it as the chairman interfering with transfers.

 

Why is this?

 

Read my post.

 

I believe Keegan. He is one of the few people in football I have ever believed. Do you have a problem with having to give Hall Jnr, Fletcher and Shepherd some credit for choosing Keegan and not Sir John ? Does it matter ? My point is that the board since 1992 has basically been the same, with the same major shareholders making the decisions. As Keegan himself says, even the chairman and vice chairman at the time didn't know he was being appointed, the same core of people have made ALL the decisions since. What is your problem with believing that ?

 

And even you must admit, Robson had lost his marbles a bit ....

 

And I haven;t read Robsons quotes, why don't you post them ? Why would Shepherd want to sell Gary Speed ? Didn't Bobby Robson decide to buy Butt ? Why would he decide to buy Butt if he wanted to keep Speed ? Most fans were also happy with buying Butt .......

 

 

 

 

[Baggio]

NE5 - You've taken statements out of Keegan's book that put Shepherd in a good light and used them as 'facts' yet when anyone quotes Sir Bobbys book about Shepherd selling Speed behind his back you don't acknowledge it as the chairman interfering with transfers.

 

Why is this?

 

Read my post.

 

I believe Keegan. He is one of the few people in football I have ever believed. Do you have a problem with having to give Hall Jnr, Fletcher and Shepherd some credit for choosing Keegan and not Sir John ? Does it matter ? My point is that the board since 1992 has basically been the same, with the same major shareholders making the decisions. As Keegan himself says, even the chairman and vice chairman at the time didn't know he was being appointed, the same core of people have made ALL the decisions since. What is your problem with believing that ?

 

I haven't said that I don't believe it, I've also read (most of) Keegan's book so I know what his opinion was of the board.

 

And even you must admit, Robson had lost his marbles a bit ....

 

And I haven;t read Robsons quotes, why don't you post them ? Why would Shepherd want to sell Gary Speed ? Didn't Bobby Robson decide to buy Butt ? Why would he decide to buy Butt if he wanted to keep Speed ? Most fans were also happy with buying Butt .......

 

 

If I get time I'll type them up later.

 

[NE5]

Once again, somebody else takes 10 minutes out to completely dismantle NE5's argument and entire reason for being on Newcastle forums.  He won't see it though.  He'll just come back with the same old tired stuff about 5th best, divine right, full houses etc. etc. 

 

And lo and behold....

 

If filling the stadium, and running the club to a level that it can buy major England players and international players at their peak or approaching their peak, isn't an achievement of the board by raising expectations and showing ambition, please explain why 30,000 supporters pissed off - for years on average - when the club was shite........Contrary to what you think we do not have a divine right to finish above all these clubs......qualifying for europe more than any other club in a decade except 4, is certainly not "mediocrity".

 

It's like a bad bad joke.   He'll even read someone predict that that's exactly what he'll say in response, and then say it anyway.

 

get back to work ....

 

is this your new job Gem.....you do even less work than the other one  bluebigeek.gif

 

Yes it is.  And yes, I do.  bluebigrazz.gif

 

I'm right though, you can't keep peddling the same old shit to defend this failing regime.  You're doing yourself no favours by excusing Shepherd's failures all the time.

 

You still think we have a divine right to be 2nd ...

 

You're a hoot. We are in the position we are in because of the man you backed, Souness.

 

I am pleased you still consider regular european football to be "failure" ... yet you are still attraced enough to presumably pay for a ticket.

If you want them out, stop going. It worked the last time they were shit. I mean bottom of the 2nd division, not playing european football on a regular basis BTW

 

 

 

[NE5]

NE5 - You've taken statements out of Keegan's book that put Shepherd in a good light and used them as 'facts' yet when anyone quotes Sir Bobbys book about Shepherd selling Speed behind his back you don't acknowledge it as the chairman interfering with transfers.

 

Why is this?

 

Read my post.

 

I believe Keegan. He is one of the few people in football I have ever believed. Do you have a problem with having to give Hall Jnr, Fletcher and Shepherd some credit for choosing Keegan and not Sir John ? Does it matter ? My point is that the board since 1992 has basically been the same, with the same major shareholders making the decisions. As Keegan himself says, even the chairman and vice chairman at the time didn't know he was being appointed, the same core of people have made ALL the decisions since. What is your problem with believing that ?

 

I haven't said that I don't believe it, I've also read (most of) Keegan's book so I know what his opinion was of the board.

 

And even you must admit, Robson had lost his marbles a bit ....

 

And I haven;t read Robsons quotes, why don't you post them ? Why would Shepherd want to sell Gary Speed ? Didn't Bobby Robson decide to buy Butt ? Why would he decide to buy Butt if he wanted to keep Speed ? Most fans were also happy with buying Butt .......

 

 

If I get time I'll type them up later.

 

 

I hope your type is better than your quote

 

It must be killing some of you lot to read that Shepherd and Hall Jnr were more responsible for choosing Keegan than Sir John ...

 

[Howaythelads]

NE5 clearly will never understand that it doesnt matter what the club was 20, 30, 40 years ago when it comes to judging the performance of Shephard as chairman. Its perfectly reasonable to say that us "younger" supporters should be greatful for what the club is today compared to what it was in the early 80s, but its completely illogical to then state that Shephard is doing a good job because of this comparison.

 

For all it matters, we may have been a pub team with 2-3 "supporters" playing on a bit of grass in the 70s/80s. Irrelevant. Shephard needs to be judged on the job hes done with the resources he has had to work with and the position of the business he inherited.

 

Hes done poorly from this viewpoint.

 

What I cant understand is why NE5 refuses to acknowledge this. Its simple common sense, its 1+1=2 - no multi million dollar business judges performance of their current senior managers by comparing the business to when it was someones's market stall decades ago - but for whatever reason, for whatever agenda, NE5 is purposely ignoring this fundamental premise, obviously because its suits him to do so, and he will no doubt continue to do so, using as many side tracks and red herrings as possible and knocking down plenty of straw men in his quest.

 

This thread is full of so much ignorance it's barely believable. Yes, I agree that you appear unable to understand. Anything.

 

The message over the months about FS isn't that he's great, it's that you and your ilk should be careful what you wish for. The Board isn't as bad as you believe and could easily be replaced by a really shit Board.

 

[Dave]

Whatever I said, whatever I did I didn't mean it

I just want you back for good

Whenever I'm wrong just tell me the song and I'll sing it

You'll be right and understood

[Baggio]

From Sir Bobby's book. A small part of Chapter 20. Undermined.

 

Bolton did manage to poach Gary Speed from us, however, and therein lies another tale of how disjointed the manager-chairman relationship had become. On our tour to the Far East, John Carver suddenly informed me, 'We've had an offer for Gary Speed from Bolton.' I knew nothing about it, so I went in search of the chairman for clarification. On no account did I want Gary Speed to leave. First I caught up with the player himself.

'Gary, what's all this about you wanting to go to Bolton Wanderers? I know nothing about it. The chairman hasn't mentioned it to me. When John Carver told me an hour ago I was aghast. What do you want to go to Bolton for?'

'The club are going to let me go,' Gary said. 'If you don't know anything about it, you'd better see the chairman.'

'As far as I'm concerned, you're not going to Bolton Wanderers,' I told him 'You're staying here'

That saturday night, the day of our game, I tried the chairman's room, reception, the restaurant and the bar. Eventually, I was told he was out. I was so angry I sat in the foyer, waiting, for half an hour. Finally, the chairman's figure appeared in the doorway and I confronted him there and then. Under cross examination he denied all knowledge of Gary's impending move. It was heading into the realms of farce. The next step, naturally, was to go back to Gary. I spoke to him on our flight from Hong Kong.

'The chairman says he knows nothing about this Bolton thing,' I said and left it there. We arrived back in Newcastle on the Monday morning and, early that afternoon, the chairman called me. 'Gary Spped's in here with me, he wants to see you. He wants to say goodbye,' he said.

'What?' I exclaimed.

The deal had been completed that morning. Fifty years in the game have taught me that you cannot construct a transfer in four hours. The idea that a player of Gary Speed's calibre can be sold in four hours is absurd and yet I was being told throughout the weekend that the club knew notning of Bolton's interest in one of our most valued players.

'Gary, this is not my doing,' I told him. 'I want to keep you.' Having let Hugo Viana go back to Portugal, to play more football, we had lost two left footed midfielders. I needed to plug that hole and so, when my indignation had subsided, I gave the chairman four names - Nicky Butt, Michael Carrick, Mark Van Bommel and Sean Davis.

'Why don't you bring Carrick in, he's talented, and he's a Geordie,' I suggested but the chairman was reluctant to pay West Ham £3 million for Carrick's services. His view was that he could aquire him for £500,000 in the January transfer window. Freddy Shepherd honestly believed that Carrick would not move to any Premier league club but Newcastle. He was in the last year of his contract at Upton Park - hence Freddy's belief that West Ham would have to unload him for a reduced fee in January.

I told him 'Look, chairman, if another club comes in and pays West Ham the moneythey're looking for, they will not turn that money down.' Michael Carrick signed for Tottenham Hotspur that summer.

 

Here's another part from an early chapter about Bowyer..

 

The sands were shifting beneath my feet. Towards the end of that season, Charlie Woods came into my office.

'Bobby, you won't believe this, but David Pleat has been on and wants to know whats up with Lee Bowyer,' he said. David was the director of football at Spurs.

'David Pleat's been on the phone asking what?' I replied, incredulously.

Charlie ploughed on with the story. 'David was asking whether Lee is injured or something. He said. "The reason I'm asking is that he's been offered to me."

'The kid's worth £4 million,' I erupted. 'Who's offered him to Spurs?'

Charlie had the answer - 'The chairman'

Freddie Shepherd had apparently rung David Giess, Bowyer's agent, saying 'Get him out of this club. I want him out. I'm not paying his salary,' and so on and so on. He hadn't come to me for my opinion or asked, 'Are you happy with Bowyer?' I realised Bowyer wasn't playing very well and so did the chairman, but his response was to take the law into his own hands.

 

 

[Syrette]

How NE5 can read that and still defend Shepherd is beyond me.